Question about Twenty Cent Pieces

CoinPhysicist

Sorry if this is a dumb question - but here goes. I'm not familiar with Twenty Cent Coins.

I'm looking at perhaps adding a Twenty Cent piece to my small type set. I'm looking at the mintage of the dates on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-cent_piece_(United_States_coin)) and this is what see:

Date | MM | Proof | Circ
1875 || 2,790| 36,910
1875| CC || 133,290
1875| S |12 | 1,155,000
1876 || 1,260 |14,640
1876| CC || 10,000 with 12 known survivors today.
1877 || 510 |
1878 || 600 |

Now if I look at the PCGS price guides (http://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidedetail.aspx?ms=1&pr=1&sp=1&c=705&title=twenty+cent)...

Other than the 76 CC (for obvious reasons), the prices are quite similar. 75S is the cheapest as expected. But the other ones are not that much more. And 75CC is more than the 76 - why is this? The 75CC has a mintage 10x the 76 but it costs more. Is it just because it is a CC?

The PCGS population report seems sort of in line with the initial mintages which doesn't give me any extra hints. It doesn't seem like the prices go proportionally at all according to what I would perceive as rarity based on mintage... Like in Lincoln cents, the 09S VDB vs a common date, the 09S VDB is way more. But here the 76 is not way more than the much more common 75 S.

Is there some important piece of knowledge I am missing about this series?

Any suggestions for me as well about this series? I think I am going to be making my set circulated coins. So I am not looking for uncirculated examples. And I think the target is going to be AG to VG - going for coins that are nice and gray and circulated and look original.

Edit: I guess my point is - these are dismal mintages - why don't they cost more?

golden

Yes, it is because it is a CC.

stman

Can't always go by mintages. When I chased a few of these the 1876 I believe it was.... was the toughest for me to find how I like them. If you find a nice one I'd buy it. In fact I rarely seen any offered, then finding them nice and original made it tough.

roadrunner

I like the circs of the 1875 and 1876. Not seen very often at all compared to the 75-s. No real premium for a set. Despite the real low mintage on some of these, they were saved in decent numbers to provide enough examples to appease set collectors....and type coin collectors. Being a short series in an obsolete denomination that only lasted a few years, I guess that's why they don't cost a lot more. Short for any grades you like. If it were me I'd try to shoot for at least strong VG coins, preferably at least Fine showing a full or nearly full "Liberty"....to me VF-XF is the sweet spot in these coins. The 75-cc tends to come weakly struck so you might not see any letters of "Liberty" on even a VG-Fine example. Even a VF coin will look more like a VG to the untrained eye. I remember seeing a Fine 1875-cc in a top tier TPG holder....and it lacked a full liberty but had luster on it. It was more like a mid-range VF.

Buy the most problem-free and original examples you can find. You can choose to be fussy.

stman

If you haven't seen this, board member Astorat wrote a book on double dimes and is nice enough to share it online as well as for sale. This should help answer your questions and help with grading these as well. Remember. "Liberty" is raised and not incuse like other seated liberty coins. So the letters wear down faster and you can't grade by the letters too good.

Here is a link to his book. http://www.doubledimes.com

BillJones

It all has to due with demand. There are a fair number of collectors who would like to have a 20 cent piece as a type coin. There far fewer collectors who are forming date and mint make sets. Therefore the prices look "flat" relative to the mintages. Many collectors are happy with an 1875-S. They don't care about the other dates, and are vaguely aware of the rarity, 1876-CC.

The 1875-CC brings a premium despite its higher mintage because it's a Carson City Mint coin. Some collectors really like those coins.

Lincoln Cents are far more popular with collectors and therefore bring higher prices relative to their rarity compared to the 20 Cent Pieces.

A few collectors, like me, would like to complete a set of "double dimes." The trouble is the two Proof only dates, 1877 and 1878 will cost you several thousand dollars quite easily. The 1877 is especially hard to find as I have learned after I sold the one I had. That discourages some collectors from even staring a set.

TopographicOceans

What Bill said.

I have a 1875-CC in my type set.

stman

Pcgs xf-40 CAC

CoinPhysicist

Thank you for all that information and comments and that book link. I am definitely going to browse that some more later. I think I might walk around and try to find myself a nice circulated 75 or 76 at Long Beach in February.

ricko

I would go for the CC coin... as BillJones said, some people like that MM...and I am one.... Cheers, RickO

topstuf

AU-50 CC. Me like.

roadrunner

I wouldn't go with the CC coin over the Philly unless you're a CC type collector first, and a 20c piece collector 2nd. When I first did trade dollars, I found the 1875-P far less often than the 1875-cc trade dollar, as you would expect from the mintages. But because of the number of CC-only set/mint collectors out there, the much more common coin sells for more. Same for the 1875 P vs 1875 CC 20c piece. In grades of VF or lower the Philly coin is 3-4X rarer. They are not so easy to find. In higher grades of XF-AU they normalize out a bit.

But in my mind, the 1875 Philly is the better coin and one with more potential...especially in problem free AG-VF grades. And considering the 1876 Philly is twice as scarce as the 1875 P in grades of AG-VF, and costs only a tad more, that's the best bang for the buck imo. The 1875-cc costs considerably more than either of them. I would not pass up presentable original examples of the Philly coins. You can always find an AG-VF 1875 CC.

pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx?c=705&p=MS&t=1

G4 in the 1875 and a VG8 in the 1876 are "rare" coins when TPG slabbed that grade are lower....only 5 total between them at PCGS. In a sense, those are sure things if you run across one of them. In grades of XF40 and higher there are hundreds of each of them. It could be that no one bothers to send them in when graded that low (value of $125-$175 in G4). Regardless, I'd always take advantage of pop 1 or 2 low end coins....if decent for grade. The OP's thoughts that the 1875 and 1876 vs. the 1875-s pricing seems out of line....and probably because there are many more type collectors than set collectors. Regardless, I'd agree that the 1875 and 1876 pricing is out of whack...and down the road may very well catch up.

roadrunner

@totally said:
Thank you for all that information and comments and that book link. I am definitely going to browse that some more later. I think I might walk around and try to find myself a nice circulated 75 or 76 at Long Beach in February.

And don't be surprised if you find sellers quoting higher prices for a 75 or 76 vs. a 75-cc because the Philly coins are much scarcer.

If one is collecting a set of business strike 20c pieces there is no need to ever consider buying an 1877 or 1878. Proofs are totally different animals. Do collectors of trade dollars not build a set because they probably can never own an 1884 or 1885? (same comment for the "easier" proof only years of 1878-1883).

Now if I ran across a problem free circulated Fine-VF of the 1877/1878 20c piece, I might have to reconsider....but probably not.

topstuf

If you have a choice of a bucket of Phillies or a bucket of CCs, which would you pick?

roadrunner

@topstuf said:
If you have a choice of a bucket of Phillies or a bucket of CCs, which would you pick?

Show me where to get a "bucket full" of problem free AG-Fine 1875 or 1876 20c pieces....which is the grade range the OP is contemplating. If you took all the 1876 business strikes left in existence, you might be able to fill ONE small coffee can. Isn't there a keg of 1797 Nichol's hoard cents out there? How about dozens of barrels of capped bust halves?

CoinPhysicist

Thank you all for the posts answering my questions. They definitely are putting things into better context for this series and the different dates for me. I don't think I am the type of person that has to have the CC mint mark. Philly might actually do more for me since so far the majority of my small type set is philly coins. And I would like to shy away from the common S here. So that leaves the P.

It seems like I should make the goal of finding one of those low graded problem free 75 or 76 philly coins. Since there are so few graded (Less than a dozen between the 2 years), it could take a while though right? I'm definitely not guaranteed to find this coin at Long Beach in February. I might need some luck or a long time to find it.

I do wonder about what you said Roadrunner - why there are so few graded in low grades. It definitely could be that for a $100-$200 coin it's not worth sending in. But then I see all these slabbed MS 65 Lincoln cents worth less than the cost of sending in the coin and that makes me wonder about that. It definitely could be the reason though.

So maybe I should look at raw Twenty Cent coins too and see if the 75 and 76 are just as rare compared to the 75CC or S? I'm in no position to have the grading knowledge on this coin to pick one out raw. But I could take a notebook and tally how many of each I see in February that are raw... That might give me some insight into this.