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No manipulation whatsoever! Deutsche Bank pays $60 million to settle gold price manipulation suit
jmski52
Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-03/deutsche-bank-pays-60-million-settle-gold-manipulation-lawsuit
Well - ain't that peculiar!
BTW, $60 million is chicken feed. I'm certain it will only be a footnote in the financial statements under "cost of doing business".
Either way, at least now - nobody can say that the precious metals markets aren't being manipulated. Not even cohodk or Baley.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
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Comments
Congratulations on your expected settlement payment! Gonna spend it on some more items for which the market is manipulated?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
My belief has always been that PMs are not manipulated in a nefarious way to keep "them" from controlling "us". Or that prices are suppressed or inflated to great extent. My belief runs counter to many on this board. Your link does not prove my beliefs to be incorrect.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
It seems to me those that believe the gold/PM markets are manipulated would be fools to acquire such assets, never mind stack them.
JMHO as always!
I've learned to discount zerohedge years ago and don't even bother to read their interpretation of facts.
Great discussion points! Baley, are you aware of a settlement payout that I should be aware of? Or are you just being snarky today?
cohodk, I didn't imply that the markets were being manipulated for "them" to control "us", did I? What I have always stated is that "they" are cheating - to make money - and inevitably that hurts all of the other market participants. If not, what exactly do you think the $60 million settlement is about?
mariner - we have all kinds of manipulations in all financial markets. Precious metals can at least be verified in realtime with a physical inventory. When the fraud is out of control, being able to put your hands on some real assets seems prudent to me.
OPA - what is your interpretation of a $60 million settlement for market manipulation?
Thanks, guys.
I knew it would happen.
Just being snarky
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
This board has always been about "them" cheating "us". That "they" suppressed the value of PM'S because obviously gold and silver should be worth more.
The whole manipulation theory is that stackers should have and be making more money.
That's been my contention against the manipulation story. And so far I have not seen any evidence that silver should have been $150 "if not for them crushing the price".
I want to see some quantification as to how much prices have actually been suppressed or inflated.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Among the charges that Deutsche Bank effectively refused to contest were the following:
◦employment of a manipulative device claims
◦bid-rigging, and unjust enrichment.
◦price fixing and unlawful restraint
◦price manipulation claims
◦aiding and abetting and principal-agent claims.
The settlement doesn't state anything about price suppression but it can be assumed that the uncontested charges encompass price suppression along with "pump & dump" as well.
As I recall, the ITCA provided CFTC with sufficient documentation of silver market manipulation and Gary Gensler drug his feet for years and then finally dismissed the case.
Based on Deutsche Bank's capitulation, I'd surmise that the evidence presented to CFTC was valid and that Gensler was protecting his banking buddies. I didn't realize that he was also a Rubin protégé at Goldman Sachs and helped draft the repeal of Glass Stegall. It doesn't get much dirtier than that.
I knew it would happen.
Don't fight it jmski52. Those who believe these markets are not manipulated by TPTB will never believe otherwise.
Grant for the sake of argument (or lack thereof) that they are.
So what? How does thinking that (or "knowing" it, of you will) change anything for you?
Finish this sentence: "The markets for precious metals are manipulated, therefore..."
therefore, what?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The markets for precious metals are manipulated, therefore before investing in them be advised that fundamentals, for the foreseeable future, will not influence price direction. As demonstrated by irresponsible spending and money printing throughout history, PMs do provide much needed protection against inflationary policy and currency devaluation. The eventual return of fundamentals to PM pricing will convert your dollar "term insurance" policy to a "whole life" policy that will provide generous reward.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
"The markets for precious metals are manipulated, therefore before investing in them be advised that fundamentals, for the foreseeable future, will not influence price direction." derryb...that part I fully agree with you, but the rest of your write-up is typical propaganda or scare tactics utilized by PM advocates or self serving bullion dealers.
In nations where inflationary policy and currency devaluation have occurred, quickly rising gold prices in those nations are proof that gold was an excellent insurance policy. Propaganda, scare tactic or fact?
Zimbabwe, is our most recent example. (Edited to correct the name of the country).
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
sure they can and sure, they will.
Bottom line is that those who want the facts have the facts.
The reality is that all markets are manipulated today thanks to (1) incentive: deregulation (Glass-Stegall Act) that allows banks (who have the resources to sway price swings) to profit from manipulation and (2) method: derivatives that create a supply that does not actually exist. True price discovery depends on actual supply and real demand.
Turns out the tin foil hatters living in their mom's basement are right once again.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The Venezuelan stock market has gone from 12,000 to 36,000 since September. Seems that's been a pretty darn good insurance policy also. In fact, it has performed much better than gold in Venezuelan Bolivar terms.
And, over the last 5 years, the Venezuelan stock market has gone from 117 to 36,000, while gold has gone from 6500 to 12500. So which asset class has protected better. Maybe paper promises ain't so bad!!!
How about those facts??!!
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
My bad, meant to say Zimbabwe. Corrected earlier post. However, Venezuela is just getting started and is on track to becoming a poster child. Having to now create larger currency bills because it currently takes 25 of their largest bill to buy a two liter bottle of soda.
Also FWIW, equity in a company (stock market) is not a paper promise, it is ownership with a legal claim to something that actually exist. Your logic makes home ownership (a written deed) just another paper promise.
"Paper promises" are derivatives, currencies, futures contracts etc. that have no physical backing behind the promise. Federal Reserve notes (yes, the ones that replaced silver certificates) are paper promises.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
_Finish this sentence: "The markets for precious metals are manipulated, therefore..."
therefore, what?_
Therefore, as derryb has noted there is no market based on supply & demand fundamentals, so don't bother trying to analyze it. Don't waste too much of your time. There are various strategies that will work - pick one and don't waver. Only use excess cash to play in "the market", if you must play.
Therefore, if your stocks go from 117 to 36,000 as cohodk has documented for the Venezuelan stock market, be sure to pay your capital gains taxes when you take those profits. Pretty soon you'll realize what happens when you forfeit half of your money overnight, particularly when you have a winning paper trade.
Therefore, trust no one who wants to "manage your money".
Therefore, minimize your asset turnover and don't churn the account.
Therefore, don't get involved with investments that have inordinate counterparty risks.
Therefore, pay attention to your job/career/area of expertise from which the money flows, and don't even think that you're going to make a killing in the fake markets.
But you already knew this.
I knew it would happen.
Derryb, you guys have always equated stocks with paper promises. Always. Now you dont? The gold bugs have always railed against stocks. Why is that? Because stocks are winners and we all hate winners? Really, gold bugs seem to be the most hateful people, they hate everything except the "precious". And when it doesn't go their way they cry foul. Hate everyone. Trust no one, as they look into the mirror. Sad.
Jmski52, gold has doubled since 2008. The US National debt has doubled since 2000. Why you say fundamentals haven't mattered. Just because YOU think gold should be valued higher doesn't mean it should be.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
What goes up must come down. And that's why prices for commodities are controlled.
Thank you for the wise words and good advice jmski52,
but don't those admonitions hold, regardless of whether or not gold is manipulated?
_ they hate everything except the "precious"._
cohodk, though it seems that way, often, because of what is written, I do not believe it to be as much hate, as fear
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Why so much hate for those who fear?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Again, no hate on either side, I see rather good natured chiding, as many of us once again have a few extra minutes this time of year to banter with our old friends on line. Over here, just some wonder that those who claim that the market for metals is rigged are such advocates of buying and holding them. Unless the promotion of fear among others tends to increase the profits for those actively making trade in metals?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
don't those admonitions hold, regardless of whether or not gold is manipulated?
Yup, and the salient point is that metal in your hand is not the same as the balance in a bank account or stock ownership in a brokerage or online account. It's not the same as a mortgage deed or paper currency issued by a banking institution backed by public debt. It's a physical asset.
Really, gold bugs seem to be the most hateful people, they hate everything except the "precious". And when it doesn't go their way they cry foul. Hate everyone. Trust no one, as they look into the mirror. Sad.
Being objective isn't being hateful. Not trusting "money managers" isn't the same thing as "trust no one". There's an ample number of examples I can cite about money managers having different objectives than their own clients, but it would be lost on you. You'll deny the obvious and call people hateful for finding flaws in the system.
Jmski52, gold has doubled since 2008. The US National debt has doubled since 2000. Why you say fundamentals haven't mattered. Just because YOU think gold should be valued higher doesn't mean it should be.
I say that fundamentals haven't mattered for the reason that the Fed has pumped stocks for eight years while the DoJ has never prosecuted a case of malfeasance or fraud against the major banks or their managements for the 2007/8 banking crisis, unlike the 1980's. The whole system is corrupt, excuse me if you think it's not.
Frankly, I have no idea what the price of gold "should be". Every government that issues a currency is playing the manipulation game, trying to gain a trade advantage or a tax advantage. It's been that way for a long time, and it's anyone's guess whether it will ever change. Gold is simply a possible way to step aside and still have some control over your own finances.
I knew it would happen.
You may be correct Baley. They should hate fear, as it is fear by which they are controlled.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Jmski52, have not PM pushers committed the same malfeasance? If you are to not trust any money manager, should you also not trust the PM advocates?
Jmski52, the FED gas pushed stocks for the last 8 years? Is not the economy better? Are there not more people working? Are not most homes now with positive equity?
The economy is clearly better than in 2009 so stocks should clearly be higher. The USA is clearly doing better than other countries so it's currency should be stronger. Corporate profits are much higher than in 2009. If you do not think stocks should be higher given better economic conditions then you don't know the market. If you wish to question anything, then you should ask why is the stock market not much higher than is?
I do agree 100% with your last sentence.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
If you are to not trust any money manager, should you also not trust the PM advocates?
cohodk, why do you make the assumption that I would trust the PM advocates, or even that I would have price expectations for gold? I've already explained my thought process and that's not what I've said.
Jmski52, the FED gas pushed stocks for the last 8 years? Is not the economy better? Are there not more people working? Are not most homes now with positive equity?
I beg to differ. We'll just have to agree to disagree because we must be looking at different data sets and have different interpretations of those data.
A higher stock market doesn't define a good economy, does it? Don't most homes always have positive equity (unless the home mortgage industry has been allowed to screw their clients by getting them into mortgages over their heads and subsequently been allowed to dump their bad balance sheets off onto taxpayers while collecting bonuses in the process?) How is that a good economy?
Again, stocks have been pumped up with QE. If I were to analyze the economy, I'd be asking if profitability is higher per unit sold and also whether or not more units are being sold. That's a bit harder to do in a service economy and in the high tech area, so instead I would also look at the quality of jobs, the numbers of people who work two jobs, the number of people not looking for work vs. the unemployed data, levels of student debt, household debt and income disparity now vs. 10 years ago. Things like those.
We rode the waves of expansion into foreign markets for decades and we've benefited temporarily from having the world's reserve currency. Now we've gone past the point of equilibrium and it's not going to be as easy to compete. Jacking around with market manipulations and currency manipulations is not the way to do it.
I knew it would happen.
Whenever money is the chief objective there is manipulation. That is human nature. Casinos probably have the least amount of manipulation then any market. I can't name any market that isn't manipulated in some way. Know that going in and you will fret less and trade better.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It seems we have a choice. Be it the "rigor" or the 'rigee".
Jmski52, the data is very, very obvious. Sometimes we need to step out of our sleepy little towns and see what really going on.
If you live in Upstate NY then you're in a depression, but if in Seattle it's an incredible boom. I could cite 100's of examples of growth that I've seen with my own eyes all across this country. I could also cite blighted areas. I see so many losers with jobs, which tells me we are at full employment.
Here is an exercise for, and everyone, take a look at the actual stats that you cite and put some numbers in this thread. Then we'll talk about them. If I can't help you see what I see, then I'll leave this forum forever. That's how obvious it is to me.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
_Finish this sentence: "The markets for precious metals are manipulated, therefore dis comrade will stack more vodka, hahaha."
Deutsche Bank Provides "Smoking Gun" Proof Of Massive Rigging And Fraud In The Silver Market
"The latest evidence is critical because as the plaintiffs add, the new scheme “far surpasses the conspiracy alleged earlier.” As a result, the litigants are seeking permission to file a new complaint with the additional allegations, i.e., demand even more reparations from the defendants who have not yet settled, and perhaps even more evidence of ongoing market rigging. Their proposed complaint broadens the case beyond the four banks initially sued to include claims against units of Barclays Plc, BNP Paribas Fortis SA, Standard Chartered Plc and Bank of America Corp."
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
wallstreetonparade.com/2016/12/bombshell-dropped-in-federal-court-proof-of-a-silver-market-mafia-among-big-banks/
derryb, the "usual" suspects will pooh-pooh your link from ZH....lol. So I provided one from another source. The 21 page filing on Dec 7th in the Southern District of NY court is easy enough to follow for even the "ZH challenged" among us. The silver "mafia." Nope, no corruption or collusion here.
In July 2008 the big banks found $200 BILL in otc silver derivatives to be their weapon of choice....that was 13-14 years of world silver production as a so-called "hedge,"...lol. In 2011, they had to find a different route to crush silver since JPM/BS got so much heat for their derivative's "skills." Just plain old collusion and rigging was all that was necessary. After all, wasn't JPM cleared a couple of years ago of any allegations related to silver manipulation after a 5 year CFTC "investigation"? It's all good.
We should expect the usual 1-5% "fine" of all the profits they stole during that period. Interesting how the Goldman Sachs clan is being well-represented in the next cabinet. 2 so far with a 3rd somewhat likely.
Rittenhouse. lol.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Yeah, I thought the swamp was supposed to be drained. Boy has we been manipulated.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
No one involved in Gold/Silver bars manipulation will ever be behind "steel" bars.
Just behind the Gold/Silver ones.
How to Trigger a Silver Avalanche
UBS Trader A: “we smashed it good.”
But, it's not manipulation. Lol.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Even a blind man can see it's all under "control"'.
That's why a single TBTF bank controlling 13 yrs of world silver production via $200 BILL in otc silver derivatives and calling it a "hedge" is beyond obscene.
seekingalpha.com/article/4030432-caught-red-handed-takeaways-precious-metals-investors-latest-silver-rigging-documents
Just more of the same old, same old. Going back approx 9 years. At some point, we might need a separate "PMs Rigging Forum" to keep track of all this stuff. It's getting hard to keep it all straight. So much for tin foil hats....lol.
Well, beyond "keeping track" of all this, and crafting tin foil hats, and being so well informed and smart, does this mean we should buy, and hold, or sell and short, or actively trade precious metals? Or is it merely interesting, but just doesn't, in a practical sense to the average collector/investor with a rather long term horizon, matter?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Plot your own course.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Well, beyond "keeping track" of all this, and crafting tin foil hats, and being so well informed and smart, does this mean we should buy, and hold, or sell and short, or actively trade precious metals? Or is it merely interesting, but just doesn't, in a practical sense to the average collector/investor with a rather long term horizon, matter?
Whatever assets you prefer, recognize the risks and manage them. But you already knew that.
I knew it would happen.
It just adds to a very boring story.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Got dry powder ?
As it goes in silver, so it goes in gold.
"UBS:okay when gold pops 1430
UBS: we whack it
UBS: u sell your 50k
UBS: i sell my 20k
UBS: then we double that up and produce our on liquidity too
UBS: that should be enough to cap it on a holiday
Deutsche Bank: haha yeah
Deutsche Bank: lol"
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/02/deutsche-banks-full-year-net-loss-narrows-to-146-billion-in-2016-versus-73-billion-in-2015.html
Is it bad I'm rooting for them to fail? Not that taxpayers wouldn't be forced to foot the bill....
Is it boring because it's so common-place? Is it boring because sheep don't look all that interested when they're being shorn? Is it boring because that's-the-way-it-is-and-has-always-been? Is it boring because the intervention of government and courts on such cynical activities is a sham and hence has no impact?
I know you guys are justifiably skeptical about anyone gauging investment activity around conspiracy theories, but it does strike me as something other than boring to learn of actual conspiracies that actually impact the stuff we all gather here to talk about.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
RR your interpretations, based on your self taught "expertise," are repetitious. Who has been manipulating the PM markets for the last 2 year > @ShadyDave said:
You left out your decimals...it should read..1.46 billion versus 7.3 billion...minor difference
Some like to tell stories to take away the pain of false promise and disillusionment. That you find this interesting proves that me correct in "adding to a very boring story". The last half decade, or decade (if we take out a year) has been quite boring and painful, for a PM investor. We need stories like this to keep up the fervor.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear