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The Value of Classic Coins with impairments?

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 27, 2016 6:08PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Are there any rules or guidelines on how coins with minor problems like light cleaning, minor scratches, rim dings, etc. would affect their value? I know that gold coins always have their metal value as a back-up, and with minor cleaning, sometimes the coins would later grade, but how about the silver coin series from early silver type through the Barber series? Also what is better a PCGS problem holder or an Anacs AU58 details holder for example?

Comments

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2016 6:11PM

    I don't know of any rules or guidelines, but it could be useful to have.

    It would be interesting to do a study on price comparison between PCGS Genuine and details grades from other TPGs.

    Of course, rarities with impairments are often net grained.

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My only semi-useful contribution: "That's a dang good question."

    I've often wondered if there was a rule-of-thumb guide. But I think part of the issue in answering is that all "problems" are different when It comes to degree. "Cleaning" runs from "A little wipe" to "scrubbed until it shines like the sun". And no simple guide is going to fix a price to "cleaned".

    Corrosion might be a spot in the field...might cover the entire devices.

    On the other extreme, I have a 1794 large cent with corrosion that is completely uniform over the entire coin. It almost looks nice that way! I'd take it over one with a few spots of corrosion. (Then again, I may be nuts. :) LOL.)

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ANACS used to provide an opinion of a "Net" grade, one "Unc. details, cleaned" coin with a very light wipe might net AU55, another "Unc. details, cleaned" coin of the same type and year, but with a heavier cleaning, might net EF40 (for example)

    Nowadays, "we're on our own", without the benefit of such an expert opinion from the third-party graders of the relative severity of the impairment, and consequent reduction in value. I have no idea, from the slab, what a "Repaired" coin might be worth. In fact, they don't even say what or where the repair is.

    Furthermore, they only list the "worst" problem if there are more than one, a "holed, plugged" coin, for example, might have an ugly patch, and might also be cleaned and scratched. Or, a "holed, plugged" coin might have been expertly repaired and be virtually undetectable.

    No wonder most collectors avoid problem coins, and therefore never have the chance to own relatively affordable rarities.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2016 8:31PM

    Also they only list the worst problem usually, so you could have a coin with several problems with only one noted. I have seen Icg list two (or more) problems sometimes. I sent them a cleaned NGC coin for Skip's opinion at Icg and he said it had several problems they would have listed on their holder had they crossed it.

    Also I find the AU55 (or 53 or 58) details a useful qualifier on problem coins, which NGC and PCGS do not offer. None of them do MS63 etc. on details coins though. I assume because the impairment makes the particular Unc. grade irrelevant.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I use rarity and severity in determining value of problem coins - but each coin is unique so guidelines are just a starting point.

  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All I can tell you is what I do with impaired coins. I mean I wish I could just not buy them, but I have a no cherry-picking policy when I buy collections so I wind up with many, many of them. While there are people that will argue, MY market research shows that typically impaired coins will sell for 1 to 2 grades back of sheet. Mostly 2 grades back. Like everything, this is not for every coin, just "a lot" of coins like this. When I can sell an impaired coin for 1 grade back of sheet, I feel very fortunate. Again, this is just my humble opinion and experience, I am sure there are those that have different stories.

    I have an 1892-O $10 right now in AU details cleaned. I will be lucky to sell it for XF money.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭

    The value of anything is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller in an arms length transaction.

    If you are looking at two Barber quarters and one has issues and the other doesn't, you would be willing to pay more for the coin doesn't have any issues. How much more? That's up to you.

    As far as ANACS vs. PCGS problem coins, it used to be that ANACS was the only TPG that graded problem coins.
    Even though all grading is NET grading, ANACS was out in the forefront in grading problem coins.

    Then NGC started doing it and now finally PCGS grades problem coins.
    Personally I'd prefer a PCGS Genuine grade instead of an ANACS Details grade.

  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps researching auctions over a period of time on what "problem" coins go for,in a particular series. It will give you some range of value,when bidding on a piece your interested in.

  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my experience it seems that pcgs details and anacs details are very close in price. Generally about half the price of straight graded coins. I do prefer the way anacs does it with a grade though, I know it doesn't matter but gives me a better "feeling", buying something with a number.
    I bought a 1934 s peace dollar anacs details au58 cleaned on ebay auction a little while back for $300. Coin facts show a 58 grade at 1100. Way less than half, so I scooped it, cracked it and put it in my dansco.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2016 6:34AM

    "Impaired" or coins with problems can also refer to NGC and PCGS coins in straight graded holders with problems that would not grade again. Bluesheet? People don't want the long wait and anxiety of a guarantee submission. Details grade coins with good obverses and minor problems on reverse? If the coin has good aesthetic merits except for the problem, surely it would be worth a good percentage of the no problem peers.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I enjoy looking at problem or "gennie" coins provided someone else owns them.
    That's my "rule of thumb."

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most junkyard owners didn't see all the junk stacking up. They saw something that could be appreciated at a later date.

    Impaired coins are kinda like this too

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2016 7:33AM

    A good rule of thumb is that impairments become a more significant deterrent for coins that are more common. For example, a common date Bust half with a small scratch could be quite difficult to sell. There are many such coins without scratches to choose from, so why buy a scratched piece? A 1796 Draped Bust half in the same grade with the same scratch is still quite desirable and it won't be so hard to find a buyer or ten (at a reduced price, of course).

    The corollary to the above is that coins in high demand can suffer a problem and still find a buyer, whereas coins in low demand really take a hit. Consider a very popular key date 1877 Indian cent with a few obvious carbon spots. Someone will eventually buy it, though perhaps at a bargain price. Contrast that coin with an 1877 proof 3-cent nickel that has the same carbon spots. This coin is scarcer than the 1877 Indian cent, but relatively few people collect proof 3-cent nickels by date and have this coin on their wish list. I would expect such a coin to be very difficult to sell at any price.

    I will add that MS coins with impairments can be more of a "hot potato" than well-circulated coins with similar problems, just because of the amount of money at stake. Take an 1853 Arrows half dollar in MS with a light cleaning. It will end up in a Details holder, and good luck selling it, because people who buy MS Seated material usually want nice coins. The same coin in F-12 with a light cleaning might be salable, assuming it still looks good overall and is priced fairly. There is very little downside risk to the buyer.

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2016 8:31AM

    One more thought to add. There is little room for problem coins in certain series, while they are a way of life in others.

    Excluding problem coins from your collection makes a lot of sense if you are collecting one of the popular series in which BU coins are available for every date. Morgan Dollars, Saint Gaudens $20 gold, Mercury dimes, and Buffalo nickels are good examples. There are enough of these coins around (including most of the key dates) in Ch. BU that including a problem piece really detracts from a set.

    On the other hand, collectors of early copper, especially post-colonial state coppers, will note that there are die marriages available for which there is no such thing as a problem-free piece. The goal here is to obtain coins that have a minimal amount of unsightly detractions. However, these series do not appeal to collectors of "perfect coins only." Early copper collectors would snicker a bit at someone that says problem coins should be seen and not bought. Such a person will simply be missing out on some of the most desirable issues in the late 18th century and early 19th century copper coinage. They will inevitably end up with a handful of "perfect" copper type coins in PCGS plastic with CAC beans. I suspect there are many such collectors on this board, and that's fine, but they will not ever assemble great collections of early copper.

    As a collector of Seated coinage, I fit in somewhere between the two extremes. I still have a handful of problem coins in my Seated quarter set, which is complete, excluding the very rare 1873-CC NA. Some collectors on this board may turn their noses up at my 1872-S, which has a bit of pitting and a light reverse cleaning, but how many people here have actually completed a set of Seated quarters in any grade? I surely did not complain when another collector showed off his recently acquired 1873-CC NA earlier this year, which was a problem piece, IIRC. I wish I should be so fortunate as to acquire one of the five known pieces some day.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    All I can tell you is what I do with impaired coins. I mean I wish I could just not buy them, but I have a no cherry-picking policy when I buy collections so I wind up with many, many of them. While there are people that will argue, MY market research shows that typically impaired coins will sell for 1 to 2 grades back of sheet. Mostly 2 grades back. Like everything, this is not for every coin, just "a lot" of coins like this. When I can sell an impaired coin for 1 grade back of sheet, I feel very fortunate. Again, this is just my humble opinion and experience, I am sure there are those that have different stories.

    I have an 1892-O $10 right now in AU details cleaned. I will be lucky to sell it for XF money.

    That's how I treat them also!

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The value of so-called "net graded" coins is illusive. It all comes down to finding a buyer that is willing to accept the coin at a price the seller is willing to accept. It is a high risk venture for the buyer unless he is able to get a very, very large discount from the price of a problem-free coin. If in doubt, offer less.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Evaluating and giving net grades to problem coins is more of an art than a science, and expert collectors often disagree with one another about them. The nature and severity of the problem are very important. It's also important to note the location of the problem. If it's at a focal point on the obverse, that's a big problem because such coins can be a bear to sell. If it's in an out of the way spot on the reverse, it still takes the coin out of "straight grade" territory, but it will probably be easier to sell such a coin.

    It also matters whether the problem was intentional and unintentional. Willful abuse, re-engraving and smoothing are all viewed less favorably, than a random spot, scratch or even light corrosion. A rim bump or nick is one thing, but the problem can actually be made worse in some collectors' eyes if there has been an attempt to file that area to remove and hide the problem.

    Most collectors agree that the worst of all problems is a hole. That one is almost always intentional, and it's hard to miss. If has been repaired, a really good repair job can increase the value, sometimes by a significant amount.

    The normal rule of thumb has been to lower the "verbiage" or descriptive grade by one level for moderate problems. Severe problems can take a piece down two or more grades. At any rate, I do not believe that the numerical grading system has any place with such coins. The descriptive grades are enough.

    My reaction when I see a problem coin or see a photo of one, is the give a sharpness grade and then go into the problem with a net grade at the end. I don't have any hard and fast rules for this, my view of how severe a problem is might differ from someone else. That's why putting a value on these coins is sometimes difficult.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is best to analyze prices realized such as Heritage archives, as "problem" coin values can vary by series or type, by year, and variety, and by the type of problem.

    "minor problems like light cleaning"

    So, an original 1800 $5 with a slight rim bump could go for $3600, while a dipped, or lightly cleaned bright as the sun 1800 $5 AU could go for $12,000 in a graded "no problem" holder.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a very difficult area and only generalizations apply. Because impairments vary and also vary in the eyes of collectors. Many collectors will accept an old, light cleaning - especially on a coin in the series they are seeking. Holes, as stated above, are the worst problem... rim dings, from mild to severe are often 'accepted' in some series. Scratches on the obverse are close to holes when it comes to collector distaste.. Really, pricing cannot be set such as it is on straight graded coins. So much depends on the noted fault and the potential buyer. Cheers, RickO

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2016 1:07PM

    When the problems are not severe, you can normally figure out a 1/2 to 1 grade deduction. As things worsen, I ask myself, at what lower grade would you rather own a problem free coin? So if you have an otherwise XF45 1866-s quarter with several deep scratches across the obverse, would you rather have a problem free Fine12 for the same money instead? If not, how about a Fine15? Eventually, you'll find a point where with money on the line, you can make a choice. Collectors as a rule, under-estimate the value loss of damaged coins. Be careful when considering buying them.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold

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