1794 Flowing Hair Dollar without Stars Pattern in Copper
Zoins
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How much do we know about the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar pattern in copper without stars?
USPatterns.com indicates only one specimen of J18/P27 is known with a pedigree starting with J. W. Haseltine going up to Simpson today. It also mentions that it uses a different die than the regular issue pieces. Is there only 1 known coin/pattern from this die?
Wikipedia seems to indicate several were struck in what seems to be a reference to Julian:
After the dies were created, several copper test pieces were struck. Officials decided to add fifteen stars around the periphery, representing the fifteen states that had ratified the Constitution to that point, to the right-facing Liberty on the obverse.
CoinFacts mentions the engraver and designer is unknown. Can we be fairly certain Robert Scot designed / engraved this coin and Frederick Geiger did the lettering as mentioned on Wikipedia?
Comments
That's my thinking as well, but perhaps there's a reason CoinFacts says unknown instead of Robert Scot?
Not the best picture, but my two examples of the type (obv and rev) are shown in the upper right
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Very nice @Baley. I didn't know these existed but just looked them up. Looks like the Gallery Mint struck the copper patterns 15 years ago. This is mentioned in the GMM newsletter from Feb 2001 which also has some nice info on Mint operations back in 1794. The discussion and use of old style minting techniques for these is neat.
We know that the obverse die was not used to strike the regular issue 1794 dollars. At one time the claim was this pattern was made, then the Stars were added to the design. Comparisons between the two show that that is not true. At any rate using a die to strike some impressions and then modifying it extensively is not practical. The die would have to be softened, modified and hardened again. Such a die would not last for long before cracks would appear, and it would useless fairly quickly.
As for designer, it had be Robert Scott. The design was really the Liberty Cap bust without the cap.
exactly so, Zoins! Interestingly, the Gallery Mint is another category of exumonia that most members of this forum appear to disdain, even as they lap up the offerings of Carr and others who produce even more modern reproductions and fantasy items. Go figure.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I think the person best qualified to answer that question is CU Forum member Nysoto (William F. Nyberg), who recently wrote an excellent biography on Robert Scot - "Robert Scot, Engraving Liberty". I recently purchased a copy of this biography, but have only read about 50 pages, so I cannot answer the question myself. Perhaps Nysoto will make an appearance here and enlighten us.
It is not impossible that the copper impression(s) might have been made from an unhardened die that could later have been altered by adding stars, but as you say we know that the No Stars die was NOT altered for whatever reason.
I wonder if it might be possible that two dies were deliberately created, one with stars and one without, just so the powers that were could see which looked better and choose between them.
I will let Robert Scot answer those questions, in his own words, from his engraving report to Congress in December of 1794, shortly after the 1794 dollars were struck:
"The actual Duties of the Engraver he conceives to be the Engraving or Sinking all the Dies necessarily required for Coinage in the Mint."...and..."It may be necessary in this remark to enumerate (to the committee on the Mint) what I think the actual duties of my office are. Viz. Engraving and sinking all Original Dies, raising and finishing all Hubbs that are struck out of them, and raising and finishing all punches that may be requisite to the completion of Dies or Hubbs; letter punches excepted. These may be imported or procured from those of that profession."
Scot's last sentence explains that letter punch engravers (type founders) provided letter punches. There were several who provided letter punches including Jacob Bay until the yellow fever epidemic in the summer of 1793. However, it was Scot or an assistant engraver who would do the actual punching of letters into a working die. For the 1794 Dollar, Scot engraved the original dies, hubbs, and working dies.
Scot explained the time to make the dollar dies, "The dollar Original Die for the head, will take six or eight days. The same Die for its reverse, nearly the same time; and after their Hubbs are compleated, a head die for striking money may be compleated in two days, and the same Die for the reverse in the same time nearly."
The 1794 copper dollar pattern was definitely a different die than the production dies, why different dies were made can't not be answered conclusively, but Bill and the Captain give possible scenarios. The Mint in 1794 had a high failure rate in the die making process as Robert Scot explained in his report: "by failure in hardening it, it becomes useless immediately, or very soon so."...and..."With a compleat success in the preceeding processes which has hardly ever happened."
Reconstructing history can be a difficult process... finding these old communications really helps...although sometimes, they introduce new questions. Cheers, RickO
Just as an aside, I have always preferred the designs without stars in the fields, such as the 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle, the 1836 dollars, the 1837 and 1838 half dimes and dimes made in imitation of the 1836 dollars, and the 1876 Sailor Head pattern dollar with the no stars obverse.
The mint officials may have liked the no stars types too. They were easier to strike, especially for the smaller coins, the half dimes and dimes.
I'm a fan of both the no stars and stars designs:
No Stars:
Stars:
NOTICE old thread **
**I just stumbled upon this thread
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Very nice pictures!
Two different coins, with Hobby Protection Act compliance COPY stamp on the sides not shown?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes @Baley , I just ran into this thread as I was researching something else. Google really searches PCGS well.
I also think that Ron does great work and deserves much more respect.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
The 1794 copper pattern was struck prior to the stars being added and before details of the hair were completed. All trial pieces are considered electrotypes, with only two known genuine coppers. Both plain edge and Adams-Woodin 15 cut down to use as half cent planchets. Walter Breen can be credited with the discovery through examination of a half cent with enough of the half dollar's details evident. One, if not mistaken, was once part of the Brand Collection.
Sorry. That's the other coin. There are two dollar patterns for 1794. The first used regular dies for both obverse and reverse, a single uncirculated near proof like example with strong hair, stars and date. A-W 14, lettered edge. Like the half, all others are electrotype, some of which are silver plated. The second pattern used the regular die reverse while the obverse was an incomplete die before the stars were added and the hair details . These are A-W 13, lettered edge as well. As to a trial number, it's a guessing game. But both types are classified as unique.