How rare are Gold CAC's?

barberkeys

My friend Doug and I were chit-chatting the other day, and the subject of gold CAC's came up. One thing led to another as it often does in one of our coin conversations, and we ended up doing a little data mining at the CAC web site. We were surprised to find how scarce gold CAC's are among barber coinage (one of our areas of interest). The numbers looked like this:

Type by coin size Green MS CAC's Gold MS CAC's Pct
Barber dime 2149 36 1.6752%
V Nickel 2351 21 0.8932
Barber quarter 1839 10 0.5348
Barber half 1457 7 0.4804

Besides the low percentage of gold CAC's, it's also interesting to note that the bigger the coin, the lower the percentage. Perhaps the grading services are better at grading bigger coins.

barberkeys

Looks like my columns of data didn't stay that way.

mrkbrown87

Vern I keep a lookout closely and I've only ran across 1 barber coin which was a Half dollar graded 62 with a gold bean. Very interesting bit of information sir.thanks for sharing

TomB

On a relative basis, I've made quite a few gold CAC stickers. For Barber coinage, however, two of the six half dollars I kept in my collection have received gold stickers. Both are PCGS OGH coins with one being graded AU58 and the other MS66.

roadrunner

Out of something like 1200-1500 gold CACs they are skewed to the more generic series, especially where grade bumps don't give a sharp price bump....like MS61-63 Saints or MS61-MS64 Morgans. Most of the gold CACs are made up of easy to find grades in common date Saints and $20 Libs, Morgans, Peace, Mercs, Walkers, etc. But for 19th century series like Seated, Bust, Barbers, etc. there are very few gold stickers. When I did some looking the past couple of days there wasn't a single large sized bust quarter in Unc. Only 1 Red Indian cent in MS64....none higher. In looking at "common" Saints, I was surprised to find that out of a PCGS pop of 450,000 pieces, there were only like 8 gold CACs in grades of 64 and 65....nothing in 66-67. Of all the thousands of 1908 NM Saints out there, there are only 2 gold's... for a 62 and 63 coin. The bulk of the gold stickers tend to come where they matter the least.



Tom's MS66 CAC gold Barber half is the single finest in the Barber series to date. There are only 3 gold stickers for all Barbers in MS64-66. I think I can remember Tom showing me his 1892 Barber half at Coin Fest in 2008. It was a wonderful MS67 imo. For seated no motto quarters there are only 2 gold CACs above the AU55 level, a MS62 and a MS66. Goes to show you that nearly every nice old holder coin has been cracked out in 19th century choice/gem type.

TomB

Roadrunner's interpretation of gold CAC sticker populations is very similar to mine. I have long written that the most fertile ground for those who would simply like to make a gold CAC sticker would be to look for coins that are fairly low in value, have little spread in price to the next grade and that were graded in large numbers early in the history of PCGS and NGC. This leads me to think that late date business strike Buffalo nickels, proof Mercs and Franklins and classic commems would be easier targets than most other areas. Similarly, slightly more expensive yet productive areas would be late date proof Buffalo nickels and generic classic gold.



The 1892 MS66 Barber half that roadrunner remembers is a wonderful coin.

oih82w8

I have one Gold CAC; 1872-S H10C PCGS AU58.

topstuf

When one considers what a sticker is FOR, it should be encouraging that there ARENT many.

lkeigwin

This crossed at 58 and I wouldn't be surprised if it regraded higher.

Lance.

coinlieutenant

That 1892 Half of Tom's is the real deal. A mega type coin that matches eye appeal with any barber half of any grade. Monsters do exist. At Tom's house.

Justacommeman

You don't see a lot of them....



mark

Boosibri

I've made a few, my favorite being this one:

ricko

Topstuf made a good point. Since grading is subjective, and not a science...you are really looking at two (TPG & FPG) learned opinions. The fewer gold stickers indicate a conformance between the two parties.... While there will likely always be some disagreement (no sticker or a gold sticker)...the less there are, indicates greater uniformity in evaluative skills. Cheers, RickO

logger7

I have gotten one every other submission when I was buying strong on likely gold sticker coins; rarely has it made a difference in money, just easier to sell.

earlyAurum

I own a 1796 no stars in PCGS ms61 that has a gold sticker. This is one the highest value coins to gold sticker. It is beautiful. However, I don't think it will upgrade because the 2 in ms62 that PCGS has certified appear to be nicer and have sold for much more. I can still hope that one day it will upgrade but I believe the market has spoken. I love the coin regardless.

Wabbit2313

Originally posted by: logger7

I have gotten one every other submission when I was buying strong on likely gold sticker coins; rarely has it made a difference in money, just easier to sell.

You are selling them for the same price as coins with no stickers? Also, what were the coins you r got gold stickers on every other order? (Common date lower grade Mercs I can see, but not any other coins)

Wabbit2313

TomB, I would like to see that MS66 with the Gold CAC!

asheland

Originally posted by: Wabbit2313
TomB, I would like to see that MS66 with the Gold CAC!

+1

logger7

My gold cacs have been coins like common Buffs. in 65, a 1941 Proof 64 Quarter, a $10 Lib. in low MS, etc.. Easier to sell but to get the crazy money you have to go big auctions.

Baley

Originally posted by: earlyAurum

I own a 1796 no stars in PCGS ms61 that has a gold sticker. This is one the highest value coins to gold sticker. It is beautiful. However, I don't think it will upgrade because the 2 in ms62 that PCGS has certified appear to be nicer and have sold for much more. I can still hope that one day it will upgrade but I believe the market has spoken. I love the coin regardless.

I'd like to see the quarter eagle!

Wabbit2313

Originally posted by: logger7

My gold cacs have been coins like common Buffs. in 65, a 1941 Proof 64 Quarter, a $10 Lib. in low MS, etc.. Easier to sell but to get the crazy money you have to go big auctions.

Let me know the next time you are selling for no sticker price. You will have your money within 10 seconds.

steveben

once again, roadrunner with the best answer.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Gold CAC's are uncommon in my series (Liberty $2.50). 38 have the gold sticker versus 5,030 with green.

2 of the 38 are Charlotte coins. I'm happy to own one of them.

Justacommeman

The old gold in this thread is awesome



mark

johnny9434

wasent there one sold on coinraritiesonline with a gold bean on it? hmmm

barberkeys

TomB and oih8 - You both have 58's with gold CAC's. Do you think they rec'd the gold bean as 58+'s or MS coins.

Thanks to everyone for responding.

VanHalen

Originally posted by: barberkeys

TomB and oih8 - You both have 58's with gold CAC's. Do you think they rec'd the gold bean as 58+'s or MS coins.



Thanks to everyone for responding.

They would both gold bean as 58+ because the + is ignored by CAC.

TomB

Originally posted by: barberkeys

TomB and oih8 - You both have 58's with gold CAC's. Do you think they rec'd the gold bean as 58+'s or MS coins.



Thanks to everyone for responding.

In the opinion of some other folks who have seen the AU58 in-hand, the coin would likely grade MS62/63 if graded today.

RR

Is there a CAC second site you can this discussion on? Does John A have a site where we can discuss as well? Go there.

barberkeys

TomB - Thanks, my thought would be that only MS coins in 58 holders would receive a gold bean.

More data that confirms that larger coins receive less gold CAC's:

Type------------------# of MS Green CAC's----# of MS Gold CAC's----Pct
Merc Dimes-----------------7001-------------------------344------------4.9136%
Buff Nickels-----------------7608-------------------------252------------3.3123%
Stand Lib Quarters---------4105--------------------------22------------0.5359%
Walking Lib Halves--------16,097------------------------164------------1.0188%

My question still is, do the grading services have a harder time grading smaller coins?

Or.......Is CAC more liberal on smaller coins?

Desert Moon

Originally posted by: OnlyGoldIsMoney
Gold CAC's are uncommon in my series (Liberty $2.50). 38 have the gold sticker versus 5,030 with green.

2 of the 38 are Charlotte coins. I'm happy to own one of them.

Thanks OGIS, and nice LQE!

I will add a little to the liberty quarter eagle gold stickers - this morning there are 39 gold beans on liberty quarter eagles in the CAC census.

Out of the 39:

15 are 1861 and older
of the 15, 2 are Charlotte, 3 are Dahlonega, 2 are New Orleans, and the rest Philadelphia

I have one of the 3 Dahlonega's, the 41-D, which is the rarest of the 3 D gold beaned LQE's - see the other Gold CAC thread for the image.

of the remaining 24, 14 are common date 1901-1907.

So pre civil war branchmint gold that was undergraded by the TPG's is pretty darn rare. For the crack out folks, not where you want to put your money, for the collector, find one of these without a gold bean and you have scored huge time.

But yes, rare dates are rarely undergraded if the LQE census is a guide.

Best, SH

erwindoc

Originally posted by: TomB

Roadrunner's interpretation of gold CAC sticker populations is very similar to mine. I have long written that the most fertile ground for those who would simply like to make a gold CAC sticker would be to look for coins that are fairly low in value, have little spread in price to the next grade and that were graded in large numbers early in the history of PCGS and NGC. This leads me to think that late date business strike Buffalo nickels, proof Mercs and Franklins and classic commems would be easier targets than most other areas. Similarly, slightly more expensive yet productive areas would be late date proof Buffalo nickels and generic classic gold.



The 1892 MS66 Barber half that roadrunner remembers is a wonderful coin.

How about a pic Tom?

ahopewell55

Originally posted by: johnny9434
wasent there one sold on coinraritiesonline with a gold bean on it? hmmm

2ltdjorn

Originally posted by: ahopewell55

Originally posted by: johnny9434
wasent there one sold on coinraritiesonline with a gold bean on it? hmmm

thats a beautiful $20.

MFH

To the best of my recollection, I have three Gold Beans:

1911 Nickel PCGS MS 63 OGH

1907 Phila Dime PCGS MS 63 OGH

1892-S Quarter Ty 2 PCGS 55 - older non pronged holder.

TomB

Originally posted by: barberkeys

TomB - Thanks, my thought would be that only MS coins in 58 holders would receive a gold bean.



More data that confirms that larger coins receive less gold CAC's:



Type------------------# of MS Green CAC's----# of MS Gold CAC's----Pct

Merc Dimes-----------------7001-------------------------344------------4.9136%

Buff Nickels-----------------7608-------------------------252------------3.3123%

Stand Lib Quarters---------4105--------------------------22------------0.5359%

Walking Lib Halves--------16,097------------------------164------------1.0188%



My question still is, do the grading services have a harder time grading smaller coins?



Or.......Is CAC more liberal on smaller coins?

I believe the answer to your question was contained in an earlier post of mine within this thread. Specifically, low value, high grade coins that were certified early in the history of PCGS and NGC and that had little dollar spread between their assigned grade and the grade higher also gave little incentive to folks to crack them out over the years. In other words, if a coin was valued at $200 in PF65, but only $230 in PF66 and $250 in PF67 then it stood little chance of being cracked out and resubmitted for a higher grade even if the seller thought it was a PF67 sitting in a PF65 holder.



Therefore, these coins tended to stay in their older, more conservatively graded holders and were always sold as "really nice coins" for the grade. Now, with the advent of CAC, they are being recognized with a gold sticker. This particularly pertains to Mercury dimes, Franklin halves, Buffalo nickels and classic commems.

johnny9434

Originally posted by: ahopewell55

Originally posted by: johnny9434
wasent there one sold on coinraritiesonline with a gold bean on it? hmmm

thank you

oih82w8

Originally posted by: barberkeys

TomB and oih8 - You both have 58's with gold CAC's. Do you think they rec'd the gold bean as 58+'s or MS coins.



Thanks to everyone for responding.

From the TrueViews and in hand, there is a slight rub on her thigh, at least i see it.

oih82w8

Here is the 1872-S H10C PCGS AU58 Gold CAC;

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Originally posted by: spacehayduke

Originally posted by: OnlyGoldIsMoney
Gold CAC's are uncommon in my series (Liberty $2.50). 38 have the gold sticker versus 5,030 with green.

2 of the 38 are Charlotte coins. I'm happy to own one of them.

Thanks OGIS, and nice LQE!

I will add a little to the liberty quarter eagle gold stickers - this morning there are 39 gold beans on liberty quarter eagles in the CAC census.

Out of the 39:

15 are 1861 and older
of the 15, 2 are Charlotte, 3 are Dahlonega, 2 are New Orleans, and the rest Philadelphia

I have one of the 3 Dahlonega's, the 41-D, which is the rarest of the 3 D gold beaned LQE's - see the other Gold CAC thread for the image.

of the remaining 24, 14 are common date 1901-1907.

So pre civil war branchmint gold that was undergraded by the TPG's is pretty darn rare. For the crack out folks, not where you want to put your money, for the collector, find one of these without a gold bean and you have scored huge time.

But yes, rare dates are rarely undergraded if the LQE census is a guide.

Best, SH

SH, I saw the 1841-D $2.50 CAC Gold on the other thread. Its superb.

barberkeys

TomB - Yes, your logic makes good sense.

oih8 - Your half dime looks like it has a hint of rub to me too, so CAC must have thought 58+. Interesting.

bjamin

Originally posted by: barberkeys
TomB - Yes, your logic makes good sense.

oih8 - Your half dime looks like it has a hint of rub to me too, so CAC must have thought 58+. Interesting.

IMHO your are incorrect in what you are seeing with regards to the 1872-s. Not only does CAC not grade PCGS Plus grades when they appear on a holder, nor does CAC deal with Plus grades when not on the holder. A gold sticker means it is at least one grade higher, and the operative wording here is at least one grade. A plus is less than one grade and was invented by PCGS, other than PCGS it has no meaning in the grading world. There is a certain forgiveness level for cabinet friction in the real grading world and whether this is an example of that I cant't say with certainty but if JA gave this little gal a gold after seeing it in hand I would go with his opinion in a second after all 3 CAC graders gave the nod.
Now having a photo the size of a dinner plate which CAC or PCGS didn't have the luxury of and whether that is helpful or not in a mot point since we are handcuffed by only the giant photo which shows everything and only on a certain angle.
I happen to believe it can easily pass for ms based on the h10c's that have come across my desk.

Sunshine Rare Coins

I used to own the 1872 S half dime. CAC graded the coin 63.

Wabbit2313

That 72-S Half Dime is uncirculated!

earlycoins

Flowing hair and bust quarters, 1796-1828. 9 gold CACs.

Interesting discussion.

JA is no push-over.

bjamin

There is a saying when you see a classic proof....it has the look add therefore it is a proof or something along those lines.
Typically with CAC gold stickers coins these gold stickers coins have 'the look" ...of a coin that is way under graded. Can there be exceptions, sure but it is rare. And to repeat what other posters have posted there are very few gold stickers given but when they are they are typically much deserved no brainer. Case in point the 1872-s H10c, again handcuffed by just a photo, but way under graded for an au58.
I will tell you this JA will not grade from a photo, no ifs ands or buts.

BIGAL2749

4 Gold Cac (a NGCs)on my first submission but nothing special

1926 SLQ N-65
1928-D SLQ N-64
!806 Draped Qtr N-55
1838 $5 Gold N-55

I feel the 1806 is gorgeous

Sunshine Rare Coins

Originally posted by: BIGAL2749

4 Gold Cac (a NGCs)on my first submission but nothing special



1926 SLQ N-65

1928-D SLQ N-64

!806 Draped Qtr N-55

1838 $5 Gold N-55



I feel the 1806 is gorgeous

Do you have photos of any?

scubafuel

Nothing special!!? That 1806 is awesome, if I'm remembering a previous pic you posted correctly.

barberkeys

Glad to hear that oih8's half dime is MS. That makes more sense to me.

BIGAL - Would like to see those pics as well.

shish

Since my favorite series are seated and trade dollars I've added their data to barberkeys table.

Type------------------# of MS Green CAC's----# of MS Gold CAC's----Pct
Merc Dimes-----------------7001-------------------------344------------4.9136%
Buff Nickels-----------------7608-------------------------252------------3.3123%
Stand Lib Quarters---------4105--------------------------22------------0.5359%
Walking Lib Halves--------16,097------------------------164------------1.0188%
Seated Dollars-------------1,544--------------------------19------------0.0123%
Trade Dollars-----------------894---------------------------4------------0.0045%

Wow! only 4 business strike Trade Dollars have received gold stickers.