Trade dollar guys: Thoughts? UPDATED 12-07-16 with grade revealed

Weiss

This came into the B&M while I was there a couple of days ago. I made an offer but didn't pursue it because it just seemed too pretty. Yesterday my guy still had it, so I figured I'd kick myself if I didn't go home with her (for awhile, at least).

The striations under her arm don't go into her arm or thigh. But they don't look like die polish I'm used to in more modern pieces. And they happen to be where the chop is.

PMD? Die polish?

Is she even real? Thoughts about her overall appearance and net grade?

lordmarcovan

I have no self-confidence on Trade dollars (in fact, I just begged TDN for advice just this morning on a humble circ I'm eyeballing), but I will say I like the apparent cartwheel luster I'm seeing there, which pops in the pics even on my tiny iPhone screen.

Weiss

Lusterbomb. Crazy on the reverse especially. And the strike looks mammoth.

30 second video clip of the cartwheel

USMarine6

The strike is certainly hammered and i like the single chop mark but what ever is going on in the obverse fields concern me. I can see why you wanted it though.

DIMEMAN

I know squat about these, but will be watching and learning.

OriginalDan

Looks ok to me, but I can't figure out what's going on in the obverse field. The lines don't look like the normal planchet striations you sometimes see on SF trade dollars. Are the lines raised? In these pictures it appears to be PMD, but my hunch is it's just the pictures. If PMD I would expect the lines to continue through Lib's arm.



What does it weigh?

tradedollarnut

MS61 chopmarked is my guess. If you paid less than $400 then you got a deal [unless it's cleaned on the obverse which I can't say]

lkenefic

Ditto dimeman. I had a nice one that I probably should have hung on to.

mannie gray

I agree with the 61 assessment.

My first thought was 61/62 or cleaned, unc. details.

TennesseeDave

Looks real to me, but I agree with Dan about the line not looking like normal striations. Looks like scratches to me. It does look like 61 or 62 without the damage.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: mannie gray

I agree with the 61 assessment.

My first thought was 61/62 or cleaned, unc. details.

MS61 details, cleaned is an assessment I can get on board with.



It's got some issues, but after seeing the video- whoa, yeah, you're right about it being a lusterbomb.



I think that compensates for a lot of the negative aspects.



Perhaps someone who is not too uptight about TPG grades or absolute surface originality would consider this a keeper.



It's got a few too many potential TPG-unfriendly attributes (and I'm not counting the chopmark) for me to hypothetically want it in my Box of 20, but I can still appreciate it.



It's definitely got some flashy goodness goin' on, despite the issues.



That flash is what I call "magpie appeal". Would a magpie wanna steal that to line its nest? You betcha.



PS- huh. How 'bout that. Apparently the whole "magpies like shiny things" concept is a myth.



Oh, well. You knowhutimean.



Magpies with discerning taste might steal something like that for their nests.

ricko

Very nice coin.... true, a 61/62 grade is likely.... however, I would keep that raw.... Would be interested in the price.... if you decide to list it, please PM me... Cheers, RickO

asheland

Nice looking coin for sure!

Weiss

Originally posted by: OriginalDan
Looks ok to me, but I can't figure out what's going on in the obverse field. The lines don't look like the normal planchet striations you sometimes see on SF trade dollars. Are the lines raised? In these pictures it appears to be PMD, but my hunch is it's just the pictures. If PMD I would expect the lines to continue through Lib's arm.

What does it weigh?

What does it weigh? It says 420 grains right on it!

OriginalDan

27.2 is right on, so no remaining concerns from me about authenticity.



Looks like a nice chopped Trade Dollar to be enjoyed regardless of grade or plastic.

Cameonut

My first thought is that the scratches on the obverse were on the planchet before striking. This would account for the scratches being invisible on the devices - especially with a hammered strike.



I see this a lot on cameo proofs. Not PMD and the graders simply knock it down a few points.



Personally, I'd buy it and enjoy it for what it is.

Insider2

With the coin in hand, hold it under florescent light. The insides of the striations should be fresh, dull and lustrous (flat strike luster as seen over a Morgan's ear). If that is the case , they were on the planchet and were not struck out. That's what it looks like in the photo - especially those above the arm due to the lighting.

Weiss

I'm very pleased to update this interesting piece. Just back from our hosts, by way of board member Surfinx.

MS62, chopped:

kaz

Don't know how I missed this thread the first time around. I think those obv marks are planchet striations from the drawing bench. I can see one cross Liberty's upper arm, which does not bother me as striking does not totally obliterate these (as D Carr has shown experimentally). Also a nice lesson in how hard it is to judge luster from static photos (the Youtube video does it nicely). A nice coin properly graded.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
lovely honest & pure true view and coin.

totally wysiwyg.
.

asheland

Awesome!

logger7

Maybe I have rocks in my head but I was thinking 64 due to the superior strike and luster. NGC does not straight grade chopped dollars right? Just curious what you paid.

Weiss

@logger7 said:
Maybe I have rocks in my head but I was thinking 64 due to the superior strike and luster. NGC does not straight grade chopped dollars right? Just curious what you paid.

Yep. The strike and condition (other than the obvious) says at least 63 to me and if you watch the video, you'll see how brilliant and cartwheely she is.

Seems likely what @Cameonut said: "Not PMD and the graders simply knock it down a few points."

Don't get me wrong: I'm thrilled it straight graded MS. After all, someone somewhere 100+ years ago took a punch and hammer and nailed it, literally. But it sure would have been cool to see it come back a 63 or higher.

Does John Albanese do chopmarks?

logger7

I doubt it; don't see any chopped dollars in his pop. figures: http://www.caccoin.com/cgi-bin/pop_results.cgi?Issue=Dollars&Type=Trade&Desig=MS

Since NGC considers them damaged, he probably doesn't want to stick his neck out. If I remember right NGC straight grades the L and E counter-stamped quarters while PCGS doesn't. https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-quarters/1825-3-25c-l-counterstamp-ms61-ngc/a/1132-502.s

NGC's article: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/trade-dollars-1873-1885-pscid-48

Weiss

Huh. Googled trade dollar chop cac and came up with exactly one: 1876-S PCGS MS63 chopped sold by HA for $4k at the 2015 Long Beach (lot 4770).

Goldberg reads like they had one, too, but the images don't show the slab. So apparently CAC does sticker them, but they're few and far between.

ricko

Nice grade... glad to see this post resurrected. Now what will you be listing it for?? Cheers, RickO

tradedollarnut

Weiss and I have a bet on whether or not this grades unc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351928643525?ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11060.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D6cfcdc6f73804e58a6b6c676ff50178c%26bu%3D43185891519%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fulk%252Fitm%252F351928643525%26sojTags%3Dbu%3Dbu%26srcrot%3De11060.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&ul_noapp=true

stealer

Is there > @tradedollarnut said:

Weiss and I have a bet on whether or not this grades unc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351928643525?ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11060.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D6cfcdc6f73804e58a6b6c676ff50178c%26bu%3D43185891519%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fulk%252Fitm%252F351928643525%26sojTags%3Dbu%3Dbu%26srcrot%3De11060.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&ul_noapp=true

Is there actually any dispute about that coin? It is pretty clearly UNC from the images.

Also @Weiss, unfortunately the $4k figure is way out of line and is certainly an outlier of epic proportions.

AngryTurtle

Looks 50/50 AU-UNC to me. Wear on the head would seem to be the reason for a AU, if it gets one.

@tradedollarnut said:
Weiss and I have a bet on whether or not this grades unc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351928643525?ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11060.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D6cfcdc6f73804e58a6b6c676ff50178c%26bu%3D43185891519%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fulk%252Fitm%252F351928643525%26sojTags%3Dbu%3Dbu%26srcrot%3De11060.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&ul_noapp=true

Weiss

@stealer said:

Also @Weiss, unfortunately the $4k figure is way out of line and is certainly an outlier of epic proportions.

I mean I guess. It is a beautiful coin as these things go: pretty surfaces, clear chops that fall in visible but unobtrusive places on both obverse and reverse. I think there is a subjective element to the appeal of chopped trade dollars that runs parallel to toning and how people either hate it or like it--and by how much they like it. Except unlike tone, chops were all applied with human hands along a 15,000 mile journey which took place 125 years ago.

It turns out CAC does have pop reports on chopped MS trades.

There are seven 1876-S mint state CAC chopped trade dollars. Those include four MS62s, two MS63s and one MS64--and that 64 is the single highest CAC chopped trade dollar there is in any date. The entire population of mint state, green CAC chopped trade dollars is 30 pieces, total, across all dates. There are no gold bean chopped dollars.

I would wager that chopped, uncirculated trade dollar collectors are few and far between. But I imagine they have pretty deep pockets, too.

So that auction for one of only six MS63 CAC chopped trade dollars in existence might have been an outlier.

But it was also a legit, recent auction.

learningcoins

here is a NGC coin I ran across today. Unc Details Chopmark.

BAJJERFAN

@kaz said:
Don't know how I missed this thread the first time around. I think those obv marks are planchet striations from the drawing bench. I can see one cross Liberty's upper arm, which does not bother me as striking does not totally obliterate these (as D Carr has shown experimentally). Also a nice lesson in how hard it is to judge luster from static photos (the Youtube video does it nicely). A nice coin properly graded.

I believe those lines are more commonly referred to as roller marks or roller lines from when the silver stock was rolled into sheets for stamping out of the planchets.

kaz

As I understand it from reading RWB's "From Mine to Mint," pp. 49-50, the silver strips were put through rollers several times before being pulled between the fixed dies of the drawing bench to achieve uniform thickness. This last process imparted the linear marks I was referring to. Maybe they should be called "benchmarks?"

tradedollarnut

@tradedollarnut said:
Weiss and I have a bet on whether or not this grades unc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351928643525?ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11060.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D6cfcdc6f73804e58a6b6c676ff50178c%26bu%3D43185891519%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fulk%252Fitm%252F351928643525%26sojTags%3Dbu%3Dbu%26srcrot%3De11060.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&ul_noapp=true

Received this coin today. I grade it 61

Weiss

Ahh, I bet that it wouldn't straight grade MS.
Double or nothing?

Vbowling299

knowing the dealer and their frequency to deal in problem coins its hard to believe that trade dollar grades

mrkbrown87

@Weiss said:
Ahh, I bet that it wouldn't straight grade MS.
Double or nothing?

I'll take some of that action lol. Looks cleaned to me

tradedollarnut

I will take all action offered...

DDR

Interesting thread.

I was the former owner of the CAC 1876-S PCGS MS-63 chopmarked Trade Dollar that went for $4k. To this day, I cannot understand why it went to $4k (not that I am complaining, mind you). It was a nice coin, even nicer in hand than the Heritage photos, but it was not $4k nice. The thing about auctions is that in order to drive the price up there were at least two people who thought it was worth close to $4k.

As for TDN's recent purchase, it sure looks UNC to me and I would be it straight grades at at least 61.

Wabbit2313

@tradedollarnut said:
I will take all action offered...

I'll take some of that action! Message sent!

1630Boston

Congrats

oih82w8

Nice coin (Type I OBV (four right hand fingers) / Type I REV (bud present in eagles left (viewers right) claw), although I believe that if a Trade Dollar (or any coin) that has a "chop mark", it has circulated and should receive no higher grade than AU58+.

Insider2

I believe there are four or five distinct 1876-S trade dollars needed to have a complete run of this date. Perhaps this coin was a rare one. Additionally, the chop may have been a rare one that has been identified.

What's the chance of posting a photo of the $4K coin?

DDR

The $4k coin was a common Type I obverse/Type 1 reverse. The chops were nothing special. I do not have a picture of it anymore, but it is PCGS #21254988 and there is a TrueView picture that you can check out. Take a look and I would be interested in hearing opinions on why this went for so much.

Wabbit2313

@DDR said:
The $4k coin was a common Type I obverse/Type 1 reverse. The chops were nothing special. I do not have a picture of it anymore, but it is PCGS #21254988 and there is a TrueView picture that you can check out. Take a look and I would be interested in hearing opinions on why this went for so much.

Coin sold for $977.50

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1876-s-t-1-chop-mark-ms63-pcgs/a/1144-4393.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

Weiss

@DDR said:
The $4k coin was a common Type I obverse/Type 1 reverse. The chops were nothing special. I do not have a picture of it anymore, but it is PCGS #21254988 and there is a TrueView picture that you can check out. Take a look and I would be interested in hearing opinions on why this went for so much.

@Wabbit2313 said:

@DDR said:
The $4k coin was a common Type I obverse/Type 1 reverse. The chops were nothing special. I do not have a picture of it anymore, but it is PCGS #21254988 and there is a TrueView picture that you can check out. Take a look and I would be interested in hearing opinions on why this went for so much.

Coin sold for $977.50

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1876-s-t-1-chop-mark-ms63-pcgs/a/1144-4393.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

Six years ago.

DDR

June 5, 2015 it sold at Heritage for $3,995.

stealer

@Insider2 said:
I believe there are four or five distinct 1876-S trade dollars needed to have a complete run of this date. Perhaps this coin was a rare one. Additionally, the chop may have been a rare one that has been identified.

What's the chance of posting a photo of the $4K coin?

There are the 1/1, 1/2, 2/2, 2/2 Large S and 2/2 DDO if you want to count the major varieties.

The chopped coin is just an average Joe 1/1. @DDR, I wouldn't complain about that price either!

Insider2

@oih82w8 said:
Nice coin (Type I OBV (four right hand fingers) / Type I REV (bud present in eagles left (viewers right) claw), although I believe that if a Trade Dollar (or any coin) that has a "chop mark", it has circulated and should receive no higher grade than AU58+.

Actually, VIRTUALLY ALL Type 1 Trade dollars have three fingers. So far, there is one 1876 Type 1 die that experts call Type 1.5 "transitional" with four fingers!

Wabbit2313

@DDR said:
June 5, 2015 it sold at Heritage for $3,995.

Here you can see it selling all 3 times. I see yours had the CAC sticker. Further proof of adding value for all the haters out there.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1&Ne=16&N=790+231+51+71&Ntt=1876-s+trade+chop&ic4=Refine-CoinGrade-102615

Elcontador

Actually, the weight isn't the only issue here. The metalic content should also be considered. I had a fake one raw that fooled most dealers. The only way they could tell it was fake was to drop it on the concrete floor and listen to its ping (it was a circulated coin). The ping wasn't right because the metalic content was off.