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More and more bid cancellations
sushihotwings
Posts: 452 ✭✭✭
I am hoping to get a robust response of the thoughts of the group on this. It seems to be happening far too often recently where I am out outbid and then some period of time later I get an email later notifying me that "congratulations" I am now top bidder because of a bid cancellation. I got three such emails from EBay in the past 24 hours.
The issues are many and probably a lot more than I am thinking off. First of which, people have finite amounts of money, at least I do. Often I will bid on another auction after I am outbid the amount of money I am willing to pay for that item and consider the item lost, but if I now become the top bidder in multiple auctions unexpectedly with bid retractions it puts me way over budget. I have thus far always honored all the "great news you are now the top bidder again" items but frankly am getting tired of it. The whole things smells bad and leaves a bad taste in your mouth aside from financial implications.
Are you obligated to accept the item as the new winning bidder that had a bid retraction and most importantly for me if you don't do you get a strike as a bid retraction? It seems like we should be able bow out of the auction as well without repurcussions. Stinks of manipulation.
The issues are many and probably a lot more than I am thinking off. First of which, people have finite amounts of money, at least I do. Often I will bid on another auction after I am outbid the amount of money I am willing to pay for that item and consider the item lost, but if I now become the top bidder in multiple auctions unexpectedly with bid retractions it puts me way over budget. I have thus far always honored all the "great news you are now the top bidder again" items but frankly am getting tired of it. The whole things smells bad and leaves a bad taste in your mouth aside from financial implications.
Are you obligated to accept the item as the new winning bidder that had a bid retraction and most importantly for me if you don't do you get a strike as a bid retraction? It seems like we should be able bow out of the auction as well without repurcussions. Stinks of manipulation.
On the hunt high grade Star Basketball.
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I no longer employ a specific habit for bidding. Just roll with it. As for the retractors, they only operate when there are other bids. They can't retreat against themselves. So wait until sniping time.
I have $1000, for example purposes budgeted to cards. I bid on a particular card up to $1000 and someone goes $1025. 4 days left in the auction. I consider the card lost. I find another card I like also for $1000 max and win at $1000. I pay. Next day I am told that on auction #1 that"congratulations" the top bidder retracted and now you are top bidder at $1000. 3 more days left in auction. Auction ends. I am the "winner" and now have won two separate auctions for $1000 each when I am only prepared to spend $1000. Am I obligated to pay for this second auction without a bid retraction hit?
Wait a second. You assume the obligation by bidding. Period. You need to shake free of this "so and so is doing this so it's affecting me" attitude. Once you place a bid on any item, you've committed to a potential transaction, regardless of what anyone else does. Yes, I understand your consternation with the fiddle farkers constantly rattling your cage. But, you are not like them. You bid accordingly for something you want at a price with which you feel comfortable. Why would that be less comfortable for you if someone else is playing a game you already know exists? In other words, if it bothers you so much, just don't play.
Actually, no.
The cheaters need to be dealt with and the collector community needs to stop touting "record breaking" prices when their data is coming from highly suspect auctions.
I've brought up the issue many times but few have commented as it affects the value of their cards. But this artificial perception of the marketplace just makes the bubble that much more fragile.
Also, sniping does no good if a bidder refuses to pay. So they can throw in a safety bid without fear of having to pay should sed bid actually win.
Solution: hold auction houses more accountable and expose the bad bidders. To not do this will just hurt the hobby in the long run.
Wait a second. You assume the obligation by bidding. Period. You need to shake free of this "so and so is doing this so it's affecting me" attitude. Once you place a bid on any item, you've committed to a potential transaction, regardless of what anyone else does. Yes, I understand your consternation with the fiddle farkers constantly rattling your cage. But, you are not like them. You bid accordingly for something you want at a price with which you feel comfortable. Why would that be less comfortable for you if someone else is playing a game you already know exists? In other words, if it bothers you so much, just don't play.
Brutal response.
If I lose and the seller contacts me with a second chance offer, meaning another sniper or high bidder has reneged rather than cancelled their bid, I politely decline.
Shill bidders can affect a snipe, but if a seller has a minimum price below which he will not let go of the card, he can do it by a reserve, minimum opening bid, a BIN with or best offer, or a shill. The ethics of the latter are of course despicable, but the end economic result is the same to me as the other 3. With Snipes I either lose the card or get it at the price I was willing to pay.
Others may see it differently, and that's ok with me
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
It's a commitment. If I feel uncomfortable in the environment I'm watching, I leave. I've honored every bid I've ever placed. If I have a problem with a seller I deal with them directly.
The substance of my argument is that once you make a commitment, you honor it. I'm no more in favor of bid dysfunction than anyone else. I just accept that it will happen no matter whether I like it or not.
I'm not in attack mode nor do I question your ethics. Do as you feel you must.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
The argument is that once you are outbid that commitment is no longer a commitment.
Which, in my opinion, is wrong. It remains a commitment until the hammer comes down. You cannot assume that any potential reversal of subsequent bidding should absolve you of responsibility. Which leads us back to the other suggestion for some - wait until the end and snipe. Then no one can know your true intentions.
If you expose yourself early, then all bets are off. That is what this game asks you to know. It should be pretty clear by now with all the constant discussion about it. It happens a lot. It seems rather redundant to keep complaining about it.
Again, my own opinion. I respect those of others and only wish success to collectors, investors or whatevers. But not cheaters. OK? :-)
He and one other bidder may have driven up the price to an excessive level, and if one of them had not been bidding it
may have gone a lot cheaper. Its just ethics.
Have any of you gone to auctions in person?
If you and one other person were bidding on an item and he won the item, then didn't pay
would you really think you should pay for it at your highest bid?
Can't do that in an environment where everyone is a stick figure with an agenda.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I know tons of people who go to real estate foreclosure auctions who are there to bid on one property only. When or if it goes above their limit, they are gone, literally. What if someone retracted their bid above them or didn't have the exact amount in cashiers checks to close. Do they try and chase down the second place bidder and tackle him in the parking lot for being second highest and wrangle his checks from him or God forbid he was the third highest, he might be on his couch by then.
I agree 100% it's a commitment if I won the auction . Problem is, obviously, others don't. That's the problem
It is my understanding that ebay sees your bid as a contract, regardless, until the end. However, they also don't allow retractions except for 3 reasons, none of which include deciding I don't want to pay a certain amount. 1) You entered the wrong amount (BS, that never happens legitimately. If you claim it does, then slow down). 2) You can't contact the seller (who ever even tries this, because that is not why you want to retract to begin with). 3) Seller changed the description of the item (This may be one very real option, but most of the time the descriptions have not changed, therefore it is not a valid option). However, all you need to do it select entered wrong amount and move on, because they don't require you to submit a new bid (although the rule states you are supposed to re-enter the correct amount right after your retraction). Sometimes the bidder may appear to follow the rules and rebids, but you can see that a $500 bid retraction leading to a bid of $235.00 implies that you just wanted to see the top bid. Your new bid is nowhere close to what you retracted, so how the F did you do it by accident???
In essence, bid retractions seem to be allowed and are unchecked.
However, shutting down an auction once a retraction has been made is probably something that a dishonest seller would use more than bidders to manipulate what they were going to get for their listing without using the more expensive reserve option.
For example, let's say you had listed an item and something happened that would drive the price much higher (death, debut, hot game, etc), but there isn't time left on your listing. You get your buddy to toss a high bid, retract and then you don't have to sell for the cheap price you were going to get any more. You then realist it in a few minutes and reap the benefits of perfect timing.
I see the aspect of being left as a high bidder after someone retracts (probably because they either wanted to see the high bid or had remorse after overtaking the top spot), but if it is happening that often, maybe a bidder needs to limit what they are bidding on elsewhere so as not to overload your budget.
Once the top bidder retracts his bid, the auction should be nullified and started over, simple as that.
This is why I NEVER bid early. It opens the door for shill bidding to "flush out" what your high bid was or leads to what the OP is talking about.
It leads to the discussion of just another approach, which, amongst so many, can work favorably if performed correctly. Sometimes, an early bid can flush out in reverse so you know who's paying attention. It sets up a psychological end game, which some people friggin love. This means your first bid won't be your last. And it won't be just an easy win.
the bay DOES track your bid retraction history, i got an email about it a few months back because i'd probably done 2-3 in a month. point is it's not always the same people doing it, but it does happen some especially on higher priced stuff.
i've very rarely had it happen on items under $100
1st. Use a sniping service or don't expect to have a fair auction is sad a state of affairs. Most go fine for me regardles and I do manually snipe. I can understand why others like it and I sincerely appreciate their endorsement of it and you have me thinking about more. Thanks for the constructive feedback.
2nd. Let's say there is a particular card/player/grade you want. You bid your max and get outbid. This should be the end of any mandatory requirement to carry through. The reason why is because you may have just placed another bid for the same/similar card and won and paid and happy. YOU don't want TWO of them. Make it voluntary at least. If 2nd place bidder doesn't want I it, go to the 3rd highest voluntary again. Anyone who is more than a casual collector knows exactly what I am talking about. If you don't you know or care where I am coming from you are likely a buyer of mostly low dollar cards. Getting the notice that you are getting scammed, I mean congratulated, on the fact the highest bidder is dropping out and you know owe thousands of dollars to someone after finding what you wanted elsewhere and spent thousands there is not a nice scenario and you shouldn't be expected to just deal with it.
Again, to be clear, my opinion is that a bid is a commitment - a binding agreement which doesn't disappear the moment someone else outbids you. Also, to be clear, I am an eager and active buyer of cards at all price levels. If I don't want TWO of something, I only bid on ONE of them.
I think eBay needs to establish a 3 total bid retractions policy per year and then you are done. I can see if someon makes a mistake from time to time and needs to retract, and I have also seen certain bidders who frequently bid on high end cards on VCP and the same bidder has 20+ retractions in 6 months with one online seller. How can you make that many mistakes and need to retract. In that case something fishy is going on.
If Im the under-bidder, I am NOT obligated to pay. I have never heard otherwise. I never expect to pay if I'm the under-bidder and it is my perogative to pay for the item if given a "second chance" offer as they call it. Especially if the top bidder retracted their bid.
Yeah that's it...that's what I was trying to figure out how to post without rambling lol...
The argument has to do with an active auction, where a bidders commitment is in place until the conclusion. The OP states that he is receiving notifications about becoming the top bidder thanks to retractions. I don't blame him for being pissed. He is walking a very active minefield, though. So he has come here to seek opinions about it.
My personal choice is to use Sniping software. I enter my highest bid and the software waits until whatever time I have deemed to enter my bid. This gives me the chance to enter bids on several items without making actual obligations. I can then win one and cancel all the rest, or I could continue with any others I choose. This happened to me recently, I had placed a snipe that would have won the auction (I assume anyway's). But life happened before the end of the auction and the money I would have used for the auction was now needed elsewhere, so I was able to cancel my snipe and my actions had no impact on the auction in progress.
If this is so retract your bid on the item and move on. If someone is playing games with the auction retract your bid and don't worry about it.
James
Time restrictions for retracting a bid
Auction ending time
Retraction allowed?
Result
Listing ends in more than 12 hours
Yes
When you retract the bid, we remove all bids you placed on the item. If you are correcting a bidding error, you must bid again.
Listing ends in less than 12 hours
Yes, but only if you retract the bid within one hour of placing it
When you retract the bid, we remove only your most recent bid. Bids you placed prior to the last 12 hours of the listing are not removed.
What if I can't retract a bid?
If you can't retract a bid, you can contact the seller to request that your bid be canceled. The decision to cancel a bid is up to the seller.
The argument is that once you are outbid that commitment is no longer a commitment.
Which, in my opinion, is wrong. It remains a commitment until the hammer comes down. You cannot assume that any potential reversal of subsequent bidding should absolve you of responsibility.
Garbage response, you sound like someone that would bid up their own sh*t. When I'm outbid, I move on to the next auction. I don't give a fl*ing frack if the high bidder retracts his bid or not. I'm no fool.
Now on to the OP's question. If you believe that you're being taken, then you probably are. Contact eBay and have your high bid retracted. Go bid on the other auction. By feeling you are obligated to pay for an item which is MORE THAN LIKELY shilled, you're allowing them to cheat you and others.
Regarding my own sh*t, I have no need to boost what features quality in and of itself. I run legitimate auctions. I don't consign.
When I'm outbid, I don't wash my hands of an auction - unless it ended and I lost. Until that moment, my interest in that auction remains intact.
As to your suggestion for the OP, I agree with you. You've given good advice which can lead to an amicable solution and allow him to feel slightly more confident in a terribly damaged environment.
We ALL worry about getting f'd over in some way. The more time you spend looking over your shoulder, the more likely you are to walk face first into a pole.
If you're not the high bidder and a second chance offer comes your way, you have the OPTION to accept or not. The second chance offer is there to help the seller close a sale due to someone leaving them high an dry. It's not really meant to benefit the buyer.
I attend live auctions every weekend and the next highest bidder is never bound to pay in the case the high bidder backs out.
Garbage response, you sound like someone that would bid up their own sh*t. When I'm outbid, I move on to the next auction. I don't give a fl*ing frack if the high bidder retracts his bid or not. I'm no fool.
Now on to the OP's question. If you believe that you're being taken, then you probably are. Contact eBay and have your high bid retracted. Go bid on the other auction. By feeling you are obligated to pay for an item which is MORE THAN LIKELY shilled, you're allowing them to cheat you and others.
Spoken like someone who has no regard for following the rules. On eBay or here.
Banging your head against a brick wall is more likely to be productive than expecting eBay to implement changes that make auctions more transparent and bidder friendly, while potentially negatively impacting their bottom line. I personally prefer to avoid the mental anguish of the rigged system and address the simple things I can control. Sticking to BINs and/or sniping completely eliminates this concern, for free or a trivial monthly fee.
On your question above, I had a similar issue with eBay a long time ago, on a very expensive card. Just prior to the auction end, SEVEN people retracted bids, making me the high bidder. Problem was I had moved onto something else and wouldn't be able to purchase the card.
I got on the phone with in-house legal at eBay and discussed the issue. I noted how the Uniform Commercial Code governing auctions notes that after a bid is surpassed, it is essentially "dead," that upon a bid retraction ALL bids should be wiped out and the auction starts over, and that eBay's user agreement doesn't seek a waiver of these provisions, blah blah blah. It was a cordial discussion and, in the end, while not directly conceding the point, I was told I would not be required to complete the purchase and it would not be considered an auction non-payment.
I spent a lot of time researching the issue and have often thought about writing a paper examining enforceability of prior bids in this sort of circumstance. Just too much work!
This is a dumb question I'm sure, but what if you snipe bid. Lose (come in second, or third) and then 2-3 hours later, you are informed (emailed) that the high bidder has bailed(retracted) his/her bid? Now you are again number 1 bidder or the winner? Is this a possible event? Just curious, as it seems very feasible or even the same as what is described above in other posts, just at the end of the auction, when the highest bids/action are coming in the most.
That would be a second chance offer to the underbidder, whose completion of the purchase is entirely optional.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This is a dumb question I'm sure, but what if you snipe bid. Lose (come in second, or third) and then 2-3 hours later, you are informed (emailed) that the high bidder has bailed(retracted) his/her bid? Now you are again number 1 bidder or the winner? Is this a possible event? Just curious, as it seems very feasible or even the same as what is described above in other posts, just at the end of the auction, when the highest bids/action are coming in the most.
That would be a second chance offer to the underbidder, whose completion of the purchase is entirely optional.
Tim is right on, when you snipe you have a 0% chance of a retracted bid making you win the auction, it would come to you as a Second Chance Offer. Unfortunately, there's sellers that take advantage of that scenario as well.
Sigh. I'm as concerned about ethics and shenanigans as anyone. But, I've quit worrying about what the other guy is doing. My pursuits have taken a much more positive turn since I've developed an attitude towards being satisfied with my own decisions. That includes the act of placing a bid.
It's a commitment. If I feel uncomfortable in the environment I'm watching, I leave. I've honored every bid I've ever placed. If I have a problem with a seller I deal with them directly.
The substance of my argument is that once you make a commitment, you honor it. I'm no more in favor of bid dysfunction than anyone else. I just accept that it will happen no matter whether I like it or not.
I'm not in attack mode nor do I question your ethics. Do as you feel you must.
You make no sense. You sound like a habitual retractor.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Don't people like that get banned from future auctions? Once they've been identified, the promoter can block their participation.
Can't do that in an environment where everyone is a stick figure with an agenda.
Huh? what planet are you on?
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
If Im the under-bidder, I am NOT obligated to pay. I have never heard otherwise. I never expect to pay if I'm the under-bidder and it is my perogative to pay for the item if given a "second chance" offer as they call it. Especially if the top bidder retracted their bid.
++Exactly. There's a premise in this thread that the underbidder's bid is still "active" after he/she has been outbid. BS... would never ever stand up in court.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
"On your question above, I had a similar issue with eBay a long time ago, on a very expensive card. Just prior to the auction end, SEVEN people retracted bids, making me the high bidder. Problem was I had moved onto something else and wouldn't be able to purchase the card.
I got on the phone with in-house legal at eBay and discussed the issue. I noted how the Uniform Commercial Code governing auctions notes that after a bid is surpassed, it is essentially "dead," that upon a bid retraction ALL bids should be wiped out and the auction starts over, and that eBay's user agreement doesn't seek a waiver of these provisions, blah blah blah. It was a cordial discussion and, in the end, while not directly conceding the point, I was told I would not be required to complete the purchase and it would not be considered an auction non-payment."
SUSHIHOTWINGS
Thank you esquiresports. I appreciate everyone's responses and input. Even with those I disagree with. I was interested to hear what people's personal feelings were on this as well as what the official response from Ebay is in regards to a potential negative mark being placed on the under bidder who suddenly "won" the auction because of retractions. My feeling is under bidder should not be responsible for being backed into a winning bid because of retractions which are done likely for nefarious or irresponsible bidding habits. PEOPLE MOVE ON AFTER BEING OUTBID AND THEY SHOULD. Innocent mistakes are surely rare. I am not sure why people are dividing situations where the auction is over and someone retracts "refusing to pay" or the auction is in process and someone pulls their bid likely because they were fishing out what your top bid was or because their friend was shilling up the auction. I have stated reasons in many different ways why it should be VOLUNTARY to accept now being the top bidder and deciding whether you want to keep your bid or not. Most importantly, ESQUIRESPORTS came though with what Ebay's actually way of handling it is done and I find it a relief that HONEST BIDDERS WILL NOT BE PENALIZED and forced into buying after they have moved on upon being outbid. Any other thoughts are still welcome as there are many more on this board. Dave
They're being divided because they are two distinct situations on eBay:
-auction is over and someone retracts "refusing to pay" - simply don't respond or decline 2nd chance offer, no possible negative impact
-auction is in process and someone pulls their bid - you have to retract your bid w/potential negative implications or talk to eBay (I know I have better things to do than spend hours on the phone with their customer service & legal team)
I understand the reasons why you think this should be voluntary (and I don't disagree with those), but that's not the playground you're playing in w/eBay. Honest bidders will be penalized if the auction is active, with either a bid retraction or a lot of time wasted. When there's a simple way to avoid the 2nd situation and potential hassle entirely, sign me up.