Originally posted by: JHS5120Okay, here are their numbers when normalizing age:
I stopped reading here because I was laughing so hard there were tears in my eyes. Up to this point in the thread I fell for it - I thought you were serious. You got me!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Originally posted by: JHS5120Okay, here are their numbers when normalizing age:
I stopped reading here because I was laughing so hard there were tears in my eyes. Up to this point in the thread I fell for it - I thought you were serious. You got me!
I had the same reaction when you compared Chuck Knoblauch to baseball's all time hit leader, Ichiro, but I at least put together an argument to prove you wrong.
Sorry JHS, Dallas has this debate in the bag. Yes, knoblauch, lofton and Raines were all superior players. You really don't want to compare ichiro to hof leadoff hitters. He will be left in the dust. As far as normalizing for age, please. It took me awhile to pick myself up off the floor to write this after reading that.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
Because of ichiros traditionally poor swing mechanics, he couldn't let pitches get deep into the zone before starting his swing. He was often already starting toward first as the ball entered the zone, so he was starting at a disadvantage and couldn't have good zone control.
"Ichiro also wants to debunk another myth. Those fast-moving legs of his? They’re not already running toward first as he swings. “It might look that way because my weight shift from the back to the front might be bigger than other players,” Ichiro says. “Because of the weight shift, my first step might be faster than others, but you shouldn’t ever run before you swing the bat. I’ve gotten a lot of questions about that, but it’s not what I do.”"
Odds that "craig44" will admit that he was wrong. I say .001%.
Originally posted by: JHS5120... but I at least put together an argument to prove you wrong.
Stop it, man, you're killing me! I already acknowledged that you fooled me, you don't need to keep up the joke anymore. "Normalizing age"! I have to give credit where credit is due - that was seriously funny.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Originally posted by: craig44 Sorry JHS, Dallas has this debate in the bag. Yes, knoblauch, lofton and Raines were all superior players. You really don't want to compare ichiro to hof leadoff hitters. He will be left in the dust. As far as normalizing for age, please. It took me awhile to pick myself up off the floor to write this after reading that.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
You have not contributed anything meaningful to the conversation.
If you want to include Pete Rose's stats on all levels then fine, a comparison:
You are so right jhs, your arguments and contributions to the thread have far surpassed all others here. Why didn't I just think to normalize for age. Boy, I know the first stat I will use next time I am in a baseball debate. Maybe you should reassess your reading comprehension skills there friend.
Originally posted by: craig44 You are so right jhs, your arguments and contributions to the thread have far surpassed all others here. Why didn't I just think to normalize for age. Boy, I know the first stat I will use next time I am in a baseball debate. Maybe you should reassess your reading comprehension skills there friend.
Accountant by trade, I don't need to use good words good.
That was a joke by the way (since sarcasm seems to elude you). From a statistical stand point, Ichiro was a better player than Rose.
Your quite the crack up there jhs. just so you know, sarcasm normally doesn't translate well to the written word. During their prime, rose was the better player. His rate stats were driven down during his pursuit of 4192. During his prime, roses ops and ops+ numbers were far superior to ichiro. Rose posted an ops+ of 130 during his age 38 season. That 130 ops+ number was ichiros career high by the way.
You were right about one thing though. There is no comparison between the two. You just chose the wrong player. Rose was certainly the better of the two.
Originally posted by: JHS5120 BA .325 | .304 OBP .375 | .378 SLG .438 | .414
One year in high school I had these numbers:
BA: .429 OBP: .758 (yeah, I walked a LOT) SLG: .500
Thank you for confirming that I was a better hitter than Rose and Ichiro. I tell people that all the time and they're always trying to bring up crap like ballpark differences, strength of competition and other stuff that you correctly ignore. Production is production, that's what I always say, and anything else is purely speculation. Dallasactuary for the HOF!!!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
My son is in his first year of kid pitch. He has an OBP of .900+. So up yours Ichiro and Rose fans.
For the sake of truthfulness: His ERA is somewhere between 18.00 and 27.00. He has decent control for a 9 year old. But I hate to think what his BABIP is
Sorry JHS, Dallas has this debate in the bag. Yes, knoblauch, lofton and Raines were all superior players. You really don't want to compare ichiro to hof leadoff hitters. He will be left in the dust. As far as normalizing for age, please. It took me awhile to pick myself up off the floor to write this after reading that.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
You have not contributed anything meaningful to the conversation.
If you want to include Pete Rose's stats on all levels then fine, a comparison:
Ichiro vs. Pete Rose
BA .325 | .304
OBP .375 | .378
SLG .438 | .414
SB 703 | 261
HR 231 | 187
MVP 4 | 1
All Star 17 | 17
Gold Glove 17 | 8
Ichiro was just a better player in literally every facet of the game. There is no comparison between the two players.
Your circular arguments are making me dizzy. No rational person wants to include Ichiro's Japenese numbers except for you. Japenese pitching once you past the number one starter MAYBE is nowhere near the MLB level. Nowhere close. Not even AA level. Japanese pitching is predictable and repetitive. It's desperate to even bring his Japan stats into play. They don't count.
Looking at his MLB totals he is a marginal HOF candidate at best stat wise. He will eventually get in based on his broad appeal. I'm not a Pete Rose fan at all but you can't honestly believe he was better then Rose?
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When Ichiro joins the Major League 3,000 Hit Club, he will become its 30th member.
How many members of Japan’s Nippon league had 3,000 hits?
Only one: Isao Harimoto who amassed 3,085 from 1959 to 1981.
.
.
.
MYTH: Ichiro gained extra hits from playing against weaker pitching in Japan.
TRUTH: Ichiro LOST about 50 hits per year from playing in Japan’s 130-game schedule.
He averaged 227 hits in his first seven seasons with the Seattle Mariners, but only 177 hits in his first seven full seasons with the Orix Blue Wave.
Did Ichiro’s Japan batting average benefit from weaker pitching? Yes: By about 26 points.
In his first seven full seasons with Orix he batted an incredible .359, compared to .333 in his next seven with the Mariners.
However, this dip was trumped by MLB’s 162 game schedule which increased his yearly average of at-bats from 494 to 682.
Over those seven years in Japan, Ichiro lost about 1316 at-bats - enough at-bats for two major league seasons.
Suzuki lost an estimated total of 350 hits by not playing in the U.S. Add this to his current combined total of 4,256 and Ichiro has 4,606 hits.
Even if we are extremely generous to naysayers and eliminate his first two partial seasons (35 hits), and throw out his 2004 record of 262 hits - Ichiro is still the all-time hit king!
Please note that the NY Daily News wrote all of the above. So, send your hate mail to them, not me. Also, don't assume that I agree with every word in the article.
Japenese pitching once you past the number one starter MAYBE is nowhere near the MLB level. Nowhere close. Not even AA level. Japanese pitching is predictable and repetitive.
Most people put it much higher than AA.
In his first seven full seasons in Japan, Ichiro batted .359, compared to .333 in his next seven with the Mariners. But, the seasons were 130 games. So, Ichiro actually lost hits by playing only 130 games.
Does this mean that I think Ichiro is the hit king? Nope. But, it's interesting what the math says. Maybe we can call him the woulda coulda shoulda hit king?
Originally posted by: craig44 Joe, I don't think that rational holds up. Look at wade boggs. Mostly a singles hitter with some doubles power. Yet he managed a .415 oba. Similar hitters, but boggs had much better strike zone control. There is a skill set to drawing walks. Most pitchers, even in mlb, don't have quite the pinpoint control you are talking about either. Many pitchers rely on speed, movement and batters going outside of the zone. The key for hitters is having good zone control, fouling off strike they can't drive, hitting mistakes and laying off balls outside the zone. Because of ichiros traditionally poor swing mechanics, he couldn't let pitches get deep into the zone before starting his swing. He was often already starting toward first as the ball entered the zone, so he was starting at a disadvantage and couldn't have good zone control. thus it often seemed he was flailing at the ball and didn't take a lot of pitches. If he had less movement when batting, he could have watched the ball further into the zone and been able to lay off bad pitches and gotten more walks. There is a reason you don't see more batters who swing like ichiro, because it makes a difficult action(hiting) even more difficult
All I am saying is if I were a MLB pitcher and Ichiro came up, I would not fool around. I would throw the ball over the plate. Not talking about "pinpoint" control. I don't care about his swing mechanics, he has little power and very good speed, you don't walk those guys. You don't walk the pitcher much either. It's common baseball sense.
Boggs was a vastly superior hitter in my opinion and I would pitch him more carefully than Ichiro. Boggs could hurt you much more than Ichiro and had MUCH less speed on the bases. AGAIN, if I were pitching to Boggs he would walk more because I would pitch him more carefully, plus the fact that he was probably more selective. You don't get walked if the pitches are strikes.
I also said Ichiro could have been better at taking walks, 200 hits a year is pretty good, better with more walks, but still pretty good.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Originally posted by: JoeBanzai P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much.
Fair enough, let's compare him to other leadoff hitters. I won't compare him to leadoff hitters in the HOF since that would be cruel to Ichiro, but to some not in the HOF.
Ichiro OBP .357 SLG .405 SB% 81% WAR/162 4.02
Raines OBP .385 SLG .425 SB% 85% WAR/162 4.47
Lofton OBP .372 SLG .423 SB% 80% WAR/162 5.25
Knoblauch OBP .378 SLG .406 SB% 78% WAR/162 4.43
Raines beats Ichiro at everything; he wasn't a great fielder but he was such a better hitter that it doesn't matter. Ichiro nips Lofton by 1% in SB%, but Lofton was just as good a fielder and a much better hitter. Ichiro beat Knoblauch by a few points in SB%, but Knoblauch, as a Gold Glove infielder, had more fielding value than Ichiro and was also a better hitter. Bottom line, Tim Raines, Kenny Lofton and Chuck Knoblauch were better baseball players than Ichiro. If you disagree, you're wrong. If you agree and are instead arguing that the HOF line needs to be lowered to accommodate players like Ichiro then just say that and we can stop talking about Ichiro. If you want him in the HOF for being a Japanese trailblazer, fine, say that. If you want him in the HOF because he accumulated 3,000 hits (or soon will) then say that. But the people arguing that he's a HOFer because he was just so damn good at baseball that he deserves it on the merits just need to stop.
The argument for Ichiro making the HOF is most similar to Lou Brock's. Neither Brock nor Ichiro were great hitters, but they got 3,000 hits and were very famous. I have a personal bias towards Brock having grown up worshiping the man, but I will readily admit that he is among the worst players in the HOF. I thought he deserved induction because when he retired he was the best ever at something, held records that people cared about, and was a World Series hero. He is also the nicest man you will ever meet. Weak as it is, that's his case. He, like Ichiro, was not nearly a good enough hitter to merit induction on those terms; he, much like Bill Mazeroski, deserved induction for reasons other than his playing value to his teams. He did things worth honoring, and the HOF agreed. Has Ichiro done things worth honoring? I can see the case, and won't object at all if people make the case that he has, as long as "he was a great hitter" is left out of those arguments because it's simply not true. Ichiro was not a great hitter; any argument he has for the HOF must be made along the same lines as Brock and Mazeroski or it's just a silly argument.
Excellent examples of guys that were better lead off hitters than Ichiro!!!!!
I have said all along I like Raines better than Ichiro and he is HOF material.
Lofton has a case for the HOF as well in my mind. His 162 game averages are pretty impressive; nearly 200 hits a year 118 runs scored 48 SB, walked a fair amount too. Certainly a very valuable lead off guy. If I remember correctly he was a very good fielder as well.
I followed Knobhead here in Minnesota when he first came up and he looked like a HOFer from 1994-97. He had pretty good power with lots of doubles, good speed and hit for a high average. He even walked a lot! His OPS+ in 1997 looks way to low if you look at his stolen bases and his success rate. Too bad he lost his marbles, he was a very very good player for a very short time. Not enough good years to rate him above Ichiro, but I'll give you Raines and Loften..........fair enough? Let's just not compare these guys to Killebrew, although I'll bet Harmon would have loved to hit behind any of them!
I wouldn't boil it down to say I would put Ichiro in simply because of 3,000 hits alone, he COULD do a couple of other things very well. I don't have a problem with Brock in the Hall either.
My standards for induction are lower than yours and many of the other posters. Not every player can be a slugger!
Pretty boring if we all agreed on everything, wouldn't it?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Originally posted by: JoeBanzai I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
As a pitcher, I'm going to want to throw him strikes. It's not about how often he stole second base, it's the thinking that he is a very good base stealer and if I walk him, he could end up on second, so why not just pitch it over the plate and hope he hits it to a fielder?
It's also about having a fast runner on base, a guy who will end up in scoring position more often than most because of his speed. I am also considering his going from first to third on a single and even scoring from first on a double.
That doesn't change a whole lot with men on base because when most other players get a hit it's more likely to be a "real" hit and not some dinky bloop into left field which is not much better than a walk (except with a man on third, of course).
Generally speaking, the way I would pitch to him is not to waste my pitches trying to "nibble" just throw it over the plate and let him hit it.
My point is that it's hard to walk a lot if the pitchers aren't pitching you carefully, so it MIGHT not have been that possible for him to walk much more. It's easy to look at his stats and say "he didn't walk enough" and I am sure he could have been a little better, but to assume he could have walked significantly more often may not be realistic.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much. Again, as a pitcher I am going to try MUCH harder to keep Ichiro off the basepaths than a guy like Killebrew who has much less speed and poorer batters coming up behind him in the order. Besides the fact that a slugger will be much more likely to hit a home run.
That is a horrible analysis any way you put it. I don't even want to begin to dig into that, because most likely 95% of it will go over your head, but I will point out a few guys that just throw a wrench into what you are saying! One was already mentioned, and that was Wade Boggs who walked and had a tremendous on base percentage, and not a lot of power.
But Wade Boggs is too easy, as he truly was an elite hitter.
Brett Butler is a better example, with a .377 lifetime OB%, despite having no power whatsoever, and he walked 1,129 in 9200 plate appearances.
Ichiro had a .357 lifetime OB% in an easier era to hit in to boot. Kenny Lofton .372 OB% Bip Roberts .358 Eric Young .359 David Segui .359 Jose Offerman .359 Deter Fowler .365 Luis Castillo .367 Willie Randolph .372 Tony Phillips .374 Dykstra .374 Grace .383 Hernandez .384 Raines .385 Magadan .390 Morgan .390 Mauer .392 Carew .393
Henderson .401.......lmao for the theory that pitchers didn't walk Ichiro(or he didn't draw walks) because it would be an automatic double!!! Case closed on that one.
The reality is that Ichiro wasn't a good enough hitter like Boggs or Henderson to be able to be selective to get hits on strikes, while also being selective to lay off pitches to draw walks. Ichiro was a high volume swinger, needing to commit to swing earlier to make contact, hence a LOT of weakly hit balls, even on his hits. He simply didn't have the skill set like the elite hitters to hit for both average and draw walks...or hit for power and draw walks like those elite hitters.
He was good at putting the bat on the ball and producing a lot of singles(many of which weren't any more valuable than walks because they only advanced runners one, or even zero bases0. In total, his hitting with an OPS+ of 108, which is lower than Tony Phillips, is pretty indicitive where he ranks all time as a hitter...somewhere by Tony Phillps
Originally posted by: JoeBanzai I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
As a pitcher, I'm going to want to throw him strikes. It's not about how often he stole second base, it's the thinking that he is a very good base stealer and if I walk him, he could end up on second, so why not just pitch it over the plate and hope he hits it to a fielder?
It's also about having a fast runner on base, a guy who will end up in scoring position more often than most because of his speed. I am also considering his going from first to third on a single and even scoring from first on a double.
That doesn't change a whole lot with men on base because when most other players get a hit it's more likely to be a "real" hit and not some dinky bloop into left field which is not much better than a walk (except with a man on third, of course).
Generally speaking, the way I would pitch to him is not to waste my pitches trying to "nibble" just throw it over the plate and let him hit it.
My point is that it's hard to walk a lot if the pitchers aren't pitching you carefully, so it MIGHT not have been that possible for him to walk much more. It's easy to look at his stats and say "he didn't walk enough" and I am sure he could have been a little better, but to assume he could have walked significantly more often may not be realistic.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much. Again, as a pitcher I am going to try MUCH harder to keep Ichiro off the basepaths than a guy like Killebrew who has much less speed and poorer batters coming up behind him in the order. Besides the fact that a slugger will be much more likely to hit a home run.
That is a horrible analysis any way you put it. I don't even want to begin to dig into that, because most likely 95% of it will go over your head, but I will point out a few guys that just throw a wrench into what you are saying! One was already mentioned, and that was Wade Boggs who walked and had a tremendous on base percentage, and not a lot of power.
But Wade Boggs is too easy, as he truly was an elite hitter.
Brett Butler is a better example, with a .377 lifetime OB%, despite having no power whatsoever, and he walked 1,129 in 9200 plate appearances.
Ichiro had a .357 lifetime OB% in an easier era to hit in to boot. Kenny Lofton .372 OB% Bip Roberts .358 Eric Young .359 David Segui .359 Jose Offerman .359 Deter Fowler .365 Luis Castillo .367 Willie Randolph .372 Tony Phillips .374 Dykstra .374 Grace .383 Hernandez .384 Raines .385 Magadan .390 Morgan .390 Mauer .392 Carew .393
Henderson .401.......lmao for the theory that pitchers didn't walk Ichiro(or he didn't draw walks) because it would be an automatic double!!! Case closed on that one.
The reality is that Ichiro wasn't a good enough hitter like Boggs or Henderson to be able to be selective to get hits on strikes, while also being selective to lay off pitches to draw walks. Ichiro was a high volume swinger, needing to commit to swing earlier to make contact, hence a LOT of weakly hit balls, even on his hits. He simply didn't have the skill set like the elite hitters to hit for both average and draw walks...or hit for power and draw walks like those elite hitters.
He was good at putting the bat on the ball and producing a lot of singles(many of which weren't any more valuable than walks because they only advanced runners one, or even zero bases0. In total, his hitting with an OPS+ of 108, which is lower than Tony Phillips, is pretty indicitive where he ranks all time as a hitter...somewhere by Tony Phillps
Apparently you can't read what I am writing. I was expressing a POSSIBLE reason his walk total was low. I also said he wasn't good at drawing walks. I NEVER said he had a good OB%. I merely stated that if I was pitching to him I would "let him hit the ball" and not try to be too fine with my pitches. Don't you understand strategy? Would you mess around with the pitcher if he was batting?
Only you could argue with someone who said a batter can't walk if the pitches are all strikes! LOL
Guys like Boggs and Henderson were WAY better hitters than Ichiro, everyone knows that.
I predicted the stat guys wouldn't get it.
Done here, have a great Holiday!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@dallasactuary said:
Originally posted by: JHS5120
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
For what it's worth, no he doesn't. He has more professional hits than Rose had major league hits, but Rose was also paid to hit in the minors and is still several hundred "professional" hits ahead of Ichiro.
Rose probably has more hits at the blackjack tables than Ichiro , are we counting those ?
@JHS5120 said:
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
@JHS5120 said:
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
@JHS5120 said:
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
Where do you get such a list of BS!
2 and 4 and 6 are true , 5 is reasonably true .
For sure the even numbers are true without question
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@JHS5120 said:
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
Where do you get such a list of BS!
2 and 4 and 6 are true , 5 is reasonably true .
For sure the even numbers are true without question
mark
Come on Mark. How did he cheat hitting. Why should he retire in 83. And the period he played in was a tough or tougher than Ichiro.
I'm not bashing Ichiro he is very good. But he is not the hitter that Rose was. And those who say singles hitters are not nearly as important as HR hitters....I say this. What is the difference between a hitter getting a hit with runners on 2nd and 3rd scoring 2 runs......and a guy hitting a HR with one on?????
Ichiro is one of the best hitters I’ve seen & it would have been interesting to see his MLB stats from ages 22 to 26. I’m a fan of the Boggs/Carew/Gwynn/Ichiro type hitters. I have a hard time with Rose’s career average and didn’t care for his persona prior to all the betting scandals...but I respect his records...
Toby Harrah & Bobby Grich were good players but don’t belong in this debate after reading back on the thread...
Altuve is my current favorite hitter - he’s amazing!
Edited to add: WAR is a product not a stat. It’s interesting but has flaws & subjectivity built in. I believe a single has more value than a walk.
Ichiro was very good at accumulating at bats and getting singles, many of which were of the infield variety. Even with all the singles, his OBP% is not very impressive along with his OPS and OPS+. He's essentially been a below average major league player since 2010 but stuck around to get 3,000 hits.
Rose was the better player, without question, though I expect Ichiro will be a first ballot HOFer. He is a likable guy and is a very popular player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@JHS5120 said:
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
Where do you get such a list of BS!
2 and 4 and 6 are true , 5 is reasonably true .
For sure the even numbers are true without question
mark
Come on Mark. How did he cheat hitting. Why should he retire in 83. And the period he played in was a tough or tougher than Ichiro.
I'm not bashing Ichiro he is very good. But he is not the hitter that Rose was. And those who say singles hitters are not nearly as important as HR hitters....I say this. What is the difference between a hitter getting a hit with runners on 2nd and 3rd scoring 2 runs......and a guy hitting a HR with one on?????
He cheated by betting on baseball. He didn't cheat at hitting. He was hanging on for stats after 83. That's true. I probably would have done the same
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I never like Pete Rose, and since the word got out that he bet on baseball games I've despised him. But he was so much better than Ichiro that it pains me to see him dragged into a comparison with Ichiro. As for 1 through 6, here's my take:
Ichiro has more professional hits
No, he doesn't. Stop saying that. It hurts.
Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
Just an opinion, so I can't say it's wrong, but Rose's OPS+ for both 1984 and 1985 was 99, or right at average. He sucked in 1986, but as I said somewhere else, every player ought to get a pass for his first awful year because there's no way to know when your first awful year will come. Once Rose had his, he retired, unlike Ichiro.
Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
I don't know what "it" is, but yes he has a higher batting average than Rose. Comparing a player's batting average who played for Seattle in the liveliest ball era to another player who played through the second deadball era, and in the most competitive era in baseball history will produce silly results, as this demonstrates.
Pete Rose cheated
I don't know that he ever cheated, although betting against your own team - and I suspect that he did - would definitely be cheating. Non sequitur, to be sure, but this one could be true.
Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
Bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaaa!
Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
He did, although I don't think that changed the value of his Grandma Moses singles very much.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
lots of players hang on past a reasonable time to chase records or even a paycheck. if we are to hold Pete Rose accountable for such a thing, we should hold accountable all the AL players who are only in MLB because of the DH, guys like Ortiz who would never have lasted as long.
Pete Rose may be hated or despised for cheating, but as Dimeman said, that had nothing to do with his hitting.
Ichiro was a prolific hitter and if I had never seen him play, had only his stats to consider, I suppose I would love and support him. unfortunately, I saw him play and never cared for his style of hitting. alas, that is bias and shouldn't be considered. his hit totals are what they are.
the hitter I remember is Rod Carew, a singles hitter like both Rose and Ichiro, only he did it better. he could hit behind the runner when he needed to or put the ball in play depending on where it was pitched. remarkably, all three players had right around 80% of their hits fall in as singles.
for MLB only and with almost the same number of hits(Ichiro actually had more) Rod Carew had 235 more RBI and nine more runs. Pete Rose is past them both. to my thinking, Ichiro wasn't even better than Rod Carew let alone Pete Rose.
I just looked up people as they popped into my head; people that I think of as good hitters, but not HOF level hitters (although Grich was a HOF level player, including defense). Ichiro was a good hitter, he just wasn't as good a hitter as Ron Fairly or any of the others listed here (or a hundred others who aren't in the HOF).
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
"Ichiro was a good hitter, he just wasn't as good a hitter as Ron Fairly or any of the others listed here (or a hundred others who aren't in the HOF)"
Give it a rest... A hitters job is to initiate action and produce runs. You put too much emphasis in walks when you play around with numbers, wearing your actuarial wizard hat...
@DIMEMAN said:
You can jockey the numbers around all you want, But Rose is and will remain the all-time hit leader.
Plus the man played 150% flat out every play. No trotting to first on a ground ball.
Great as a player. After that a total tool.
I'll agree to that. What gets me is that Gambling is an addiction just like Drinking. But how many alcoholics are in the HOF?
Ad total douche as well
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And when Pete Rose got the hit record, people referred to his lack of power ?
Ichiro spent 9 years in Japan
and when he comes here, he racks 200+ hits 10 straight years
safe to say he would have done it 19 straight years in the majors as well
who ever did that !?
who is to say he wouldn't have flirted with 300 hits in a season ?
also worthy to say, he had less hits against Japanese pitchers
maybe the talent over there isn't so bad
King ? who knows
but for sure an incredible hit maker
@DIMEMAN said:
Isn't there a stat on how often a lead off walk comes around to score. And of course a walk with bases loaded is a RBI.
Yes, I laid all that info out in another thread. Anyone who has read that and still cannot understand the proper value of a walk is a moron...and it is at that point when one moves on.
@LarkinCollector said:
Assumption of possible performance statistics are the best statistics. Right up there with what players would have done during war years.
from age 27 to 36, he puts up monster numbers,
not just coming close
and you don't think the probability is VERY high,
he would have done just as well at age 18-26 ?
ball players have their prime in their 2nd half of their career ?
I thought I made a good argument
heck, I don't even own one of his cards
Comments
I stopped reading here because I was laughing so hard there were tears in my eyes. Up to this point in the thread I fell for it - I thought you were serious. You got me!
I stopped reading here because I was laughing so hard there were tears in my eyes. Up to this point in the thread I fell for it - I thought you were serious. You got me!
I had the same reaction when you compared Chuck Knoblauch to baseball's all time hit leader, Ichiro, but I at least put together an argument to prove you wrong.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Because of ichiros traditionally poor swing mechanics, he couldn't let pitches get deep into the zone before starting his swing. He was often already starting toward first as the ball entered the zone, so he was starting at a disadvantage and couldn't have good zone control.
Bzzzzzt.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo...ters-article-1.1139272
"Ichiro also wants to debunk another myth. Those fast-moving legs of his? They’re not already running toward first as he swings. “It might look that way because my weight shift from the back to the front might be bigger than other players,” Ichiro says. “Because of the weight shift, my first step might be faster than others, but you shouldn’t ever run before you swing the bat. I’ve gotten a lot of questions about that, but it’s not what I do.”"
Odds that "craig44" will admit that he was wrong. I say .001%.
Stop it, man, you're killing me! I already acknowledged that you fooled me, you don't need to keep up the joke anymore. "Normalizing age"! I have to give credit where credit is due - that was seriously funny.
Sorry JHS, Dallas has this debate in the bag. Yes, knoblauch, lofton and Raines were all superior players. You really don't want to compare ichiro to hof leadoff hitters. He will be left in the dust. As far as normalizing for age, please. It took me awhile to pick myself up off the floor to write this after reading that.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
You have not contributed anything meaningful to the conversation.
If you want to include Pete Rose's stats on all levels then fine, a comparison:
Ichiro vs. Pete Rose
BA .325 | .304
OBP .375 | .378
SLG .438 | .414
SB 703 | 261
HR 231 | 187
MVP 4 | 1
All Star 17 | 17
Gold Glove 17 | 8
Ichiro was just a better player in literally every facet of the game. There is no comparison between the two players.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You are so right jhs, your arguments and contributions to the thread have far surpassed all others here. Why didn't I just think to normalize for age. Boy, I know the first stat I will use next time I am in a baseball debate. Maybe you should reassess your reading comprehension skills there friend.
Accountant by trade, I don't need to use good words good.
That was a joke by the way (since sarcasm seems to elude you). From a statistical stand point, Ichiro was a better player than Rose.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
You were right about one thing though. There is no comparison between the two. You just chose the wrong player. Rose was certainly the better of the two.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
BA .325 | .304
OBP .375 | .378
SLG .438 | .414
One year in high school I had these numbers:
BA: .429
OBP: .758 (yeah, I walked a LOT)
SLG: .500
Thank you for confirming that I was a better hitter than Rose and Ichiro. I tell people that all the time and they're always trying to bring up crap like ballpark differences, strength of competition and other stuff that you correctly ignore. Production is production, that's what I always say, and anything else is purely speculation. Dallasactuary for the HOF!!!
For the sake of truthfulness:
His ERA is somewhere between 18.00 and 27.00. He has decent control for a 9 year old. But I hate to think what his BABIP is
Sorry JHS, Dallas has this debate in the bag. Yes, knoblauch, lofton and Raines were all superior players. You really don't want to compare ichiro to hof leadoff hitters. He will be left in the dust. As far as normalizing for age, please. It took me awhile to pick myself up off the floor to write this after reading that.
Ichiro, all time hits leader. What in the world. I think we should take roses 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and add them to his professional totals. 4769. Now let's watch ichiro play until he can draw social security to top that total.
You have not contributed anything meaningful to the conversation.
If you want to include Pete Rose's stats on all levels then fine, a comparison:
Ichiro vs. Pete Rose
BA .325 | .304
OBP .375 | .378
SLG .438 | .414
SB 703 | 261
HR 231 | 187
MVP 4 | 1
All Star 17 | 17
Gold Glove 17 | 8
Ichiro was just a better player in literally every facet of the game. There is no comparison between the two players.
Your circular arguments are making me dizzy. No rational person wants to include Ichiro's Japenese numbers except for you. Japenese pitching once you past the number one starter MAYBE is nowhere near the MLB level. Nowhere close. Not even AA level. Japanese pitching is predictable and repetitive. It's desperate to even bring his Japan stats into play. They don't count.
Looking at his MLB totals he is a marginal HOF candidate at best stat wise. He will eventually get in based on his broad appeal. I'm not a Pete Rose fan at all but you can't honestly believe he was better then Rose?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo...king-article-1.2674831
When Ichiro joins the Major League 3,000 Hit Club, he will become its 30th member.
How many members of Japan’s Nippon league had 3,000 hits?
Only one: Isao Harimoto who amassed 3,085 from 1959 to 1981.
.
.
.
MYTH: Ichiro gained extra hits from playing against weaker pitching in Japan.
TRUTH: Ichiro LOST about 50 hits per year from playing in Japan’s 130-game schedule.
He averaged 227 hits in his first seven seasons with the Seattle Mariners, but only 177 hits in his first seven full seasons with the Orix Blue Wave.
Did Ichiro’s Japan batting average benefit from weaker pitching? Yes: By about 26 points.
In his first seven full seasons with Orix he batted an incredible .359, compared to .333 in his next seven with the Mariners.
However, this dip was trumped by MLB’s 162 game schedule which increased his yearly average of at-bats from 494 to 682.
Over those seven years in Japan, Ichiro lost about 1316 at-bats - enough at-bats for two major league seasons.
Suzuki lost an estimated total of 350 hits by not playing in the U.S. Add this to his current combined total of 4,256 and Ichiro has 4,606 hits.
Even if we are extremely generous to naysayers and eliminate his first two partial seasons (35 hits), and throw out his 2004 record of 262 hits - Ichiro is still the all-time hit king!
Please note that the NY Daily News wrote all of the above. So, send your hate mail to them, not me. Also, don't assume that I agree with every word in the article.
Japenese pitching once you past the number one starter MAYBE is nowhere near the MLB level. Nowhere close. Not even AA level. Japanese pitching is predictable and repetitive.
Most people put it much higher than AA.
In his first seven full seasons in Japan, Ichiro batted .359, compared to .333 in his next seven with the Mariners. But, the seasons were 130 games. So, Ichiro actually lost hits by playing only 130 games.
Does this mean that I think Ichiro is the hit king? Nope. But, it's interesting what the math says. Maybe we can call him the woulda coulda shoulda hit king?
Joe, I don't think that rational holds up. Look at wade boggs. Mostly a singles hitter with some doubles power. Yet he managed a .415 oba. Similar hitters, but boggs had much better strike zone control. There is a skill set to drawing walks. Most pitchers, even in mlb, don't have quite the pinpoint control you are talking about either. Many pitchers rely on speed, movement and batters going outside of the zone. The key for hitters is having good zone control, fouling off strike they can't drive, hitting mistakes and laying off balls outside the zone. Because of ichiros traditionally poor swing mechanics, he couldn't let pitches get deep into the zone before starting his swing. He was often already starting toward first as the ball entered the zone, so he was starting at a disadvantage and couldn't have good zone control. thus it often seemed he was flailing at the ball and didn't take a lot of pitches. If he had less movement when batting, he could have watched the ball further into the zone and been able to lay off bad pitches and gotten more walks. There is a reason you don't see more batters who swing like ichiro, because it makes a difficult action(hiting) even more difficult
All I am saying is if I were a MLB pitcher and Ichiro came up, I would not fool around. I would throw the ball over the plate. Not talking about "pinpoint" control. I don't care about his swing mechanics, he has little power and very good speed, you don't walk those guys. You don't walk the pitcher much either. It's common baseball sense.
Boggs was a vastly superior hitter in my opinion and I would pitch him more carefully than Ichiro. Boggs could hurt you much more than Ichiro and had MUCH less speed on the bases. AGAIN, if I were pitching to Boggs he would walk more because I would pitch him more carefully, plus the fact that he was probably more selective. You don't get walked if the pitches are strikes.
I also said Ichiro could have been better at taking walks, 200 hits a year is pretty good, better with more walks, but still pretty good.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much.
Fair enough, let's compare him to other leadoff hitters. I won't compare him to leadoff hitters in the HOF since that would be cruel to Ichiro, but to some not in the HOF.
Ichiro
OBP .357
SLG .405
SB% 81%
WAR/162 4.02
Raines
OBP .385
SLG .425
SB% 85%
WAR/162 4.47
Lofton
OBP .372
SLG .423
SB% 80%
WAR/162 5.25
Knoblauch
OBP .378
SLG .406
SB% 78%
WAR/162 4.43
Raines beats Ichiro at everything; he wasn't a great fielder but he was such a better hitter that it doesn't matter. Ichiro nips Lofton by 1% in SB%, but Lofton was just as good a fielder and a much better hitter. Ichiro beat Knoblauch by a few points in SB%, but Knoblauch, as a Gold Glove infielder, had more fielding value than Ichiro and was also a better hitter. Bottom line, Tim Raines, Kenny Lofton and Chuck Knoblauch were better baseball players than Ichiro. If you disagree, you're wrong. If you agree and are instead arguing that the HOF line needs to be lowered to accommodate players like Ichiro then just say that and we can stop talking about Ichiro. If you want him in the HOF for being a Japanese trailblazer, fine, say that. If you want him in the HOF because he accumulated 3,000 hits (or soon will) then say that. But the people arguing that he's a HOFer because he was just so damn good at baseball that he deserves it on the merits just need to stop.
The argument for Ichiro making the HOF is most similar to Lou Brock's. Neither Brock nor Ichiro were great hitters, but they got 3,000 hits and were very famous. I have a personal bias towards Brock having grown up worshiping the man, but I will readily admit that he is among the worst players in the HOF. I thought he deserved induction because when he retired he was the best ever at something, held records that people cared about, and was a World Series hero. He is also the nicest man you will ever meet. Weak as it is, that's his case. He, like Ichiro, was not nearly a good enough hitter to merit induction on those terms; he, much like Bill Mazeroski, deserved induction for reasons other than his playing value to his teams. He did things worth honoring, and the HOF agreed. Has Ichiro done things worth honoring? I can see the case, and won't object at all if people make the case that he has, as long as "he was a great hitter" is left out of those arguments because it's simply not true. Ichiro was not a great hitter; any argument he has for the HOF must be made along the same lines as Brock and Mazeroski or it's just a silly argument.
Excellent examples of guys that were better lead off hitters than Ichiro!!!!!
I have said all along I like Raines better than Ichiro and he is HOF material.
Lofton has a case for the HOF as well in my mind. His 162 game averages are pretty impressive; nearly 200 hits a year 118 runs scored 48 SB, walked a fair amount too. Certainly a very valuable lead off guy. If I remember correctly he was a very good fielder as well.
I followed Knobhead here in Minnesota when he first came up and he looked like a HOFer from 1994-97. He had pretty good power with lots of doubles, good speed and hit for a high average. He even walked a lot! His OPS+ in 1997 looks way to low if you look at his stolen bases and his success rate. Too bad he lost his marbles, he was a very very good player for a very short time. Not enough good years to rate him above Ichiro, but I'll give you Raines and Loften..........fair enough? Let's just not compare these guys to Killebrew, although I'll bet Harmon would have loved to hit behind any of them!
I wouldn't boil it down to say I would put Ichiro in simply because of 3,000 hits alone, he COULD do a couple of other things very well. I don't have a problem with Brock in the Hall either.
My standards for induction are lower than yours and many of the other posters. Not every player can be a slugger!
Pretty boring if we all agreed on everything, wouldn't it?
I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
As a pitcher, I'm going to want to throw him strikes. It's not about how often he stole second base, it's the thinking that he is a very good base stealer and if I walk him, he could end up on second, so why not just pitch it over the plate and hope he hits it to a fielder?
It's also about having a fast runner on base, a guy who will end up in scoring position more often than most because of his speed. I am also considering his going from first to third on a single and even scoring from first on a double.
That doesn't change a whole lot with men on base because when most other players get a hit it's more likely to be a "real" hit and not some dinky bloop into left field which is not much better than a walk (except with a man on third, of course).
Generally speaking, the way I would pitch to him is not to waste my pitches trying to "nibble" just throw it over the plate and let him hit it.
My point is that it's hard to walk a lot if the pitchers aren't pitching you carefully, so it MIGHT not have been that possible for him to walk much more. It's easy to look at his stats and say "he didn't walk enough" and I am sure he could have been a little better, but to assume he could have walked significantly more often may not be realistic.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much. Again, as a pitcher I am going to try MUCH harder to keep Ichiro off the basepaths than a guy like Killebrew who has much less speed and poorer batters coming up behind him in the order. Besides the fact that a slugger will be much more likely to hit a home run.
That is a horrible analysis any way you put it. I don't even want to begin to dig into that, because most likely 95% of it will go over your head, but I will point out a few guys that just throw a wrench into what you are saying! One was already mentioned, and that was Wade Boggs who walked and had a tremendous on base percentage, and not a lot of power.
But Wade Boggs is too easy, as he truly was an elite hitter.
Brett Butler is a better example, with a .377 lifetime OB%, despite having no power whatsoever, and he walked 1,129 in 9200 plate appearances.
Ichiro had a .357 lifetime OB% in an easier era to hit in to boot.
Kenny Lofton .372 OB%
Bip Roberts .358
Eric Young .359
David Segui .359
Jose Offerman .359
Deter Fowler .365
Luis Castillo .367
Willie Randolph .372
Tony Phillips .374
Dykstra .374
Grace .383
Hernandez .384
Raines .385
Magadan .390
Morgan .390
Mauer .392
Carew .393
Henderson .401.......lmao for the theory that pitchers didn't walk Ichiro(or he didn't draw walks) because it would be an automatic double!!! Case closed on that one.
The reality is that Ichiro wasn't a good enough hitter like Boggs or Henderson to be able to be selective to get hits on strikes, while also being selective to lay off pitches to draw walks. Ichiro was a high volume swinger, needing to commit to swing earlier to make contact, hence a LOT of weakly hit balls, even on his hits. He simply didn't have the skill set like the elite hitters to hit for both average and draw walks...or hit for power and draw walks like those elite hitters.
He was good at putting the bat on the ball and producing a lot of singles(many of which weren't any more valuable than walks because they only advanced runners one, or even zero bases0. In total, his hitting with an OPS+ of 108, which is lower than Tony Phillips, is pretty indicitive where he ranks all time as a hitter...somewhere by Tony Phillps
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
As a pitcher, I'm going to want to throw him strikes. It's not about how often he stole second base, it's the thinking that he is a very good base stealer and if I walk him, he could end up on second, so why not just pitch it over the plate and hope he hits it to a fielder?
It's also about having a fast runner on base, a guy who will end up in scoring position more often than most because of his speed. I am also considering his going from first to third on a single and even scoring from first on a double.
That doesn't change a whole lot with men on base because when most other players get a hit it's more likely to be a "real" hit and not some dinky bloop into left field which is not much better than a walk (except with a man on third, of course).
Generally speaking, the way I would pitch to him is not to waste my pitches trying to "nibble" just throw it over the plate and let him hit it.
My point is that it's hard to walk a lot if the pitchers aren't pitching you carefully, so it MIGHT not have been that possible for him to walk much more. It's easy to look at his stats and say "he didn't walk enough" and I am sure he could have been a little better, but to assume he could have walked significantly more often may not be realistic.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much. Again, as a pitcher I am going to try MUCH harder to keep Ichiro off the basepaths than a guy like Killebrew who has much less speed and poorer batters coming up behind him in the order. Besides the fact that a slugger will be much more likely to hit a home run.
That is a horrible analysis any way you put it. I don't even want to begin to dig into that, because most likely 95% of it will go over your head, but I will point out a few guys that just throw a wrench into what you are saying! One was already mentioned, and that was Wade Boggs who walked and had a tremendous on base percentage, and not a lot of power.
But Wade Boggs is too easy, as he truly was an elite hitter.
Brett Butler is a better example, with a .377 lifetime OB%, despite having no power whatsoever, and he walked 1,129 in 9200 plate appearances.
Ichiro had a .357 lifetime OB% in an easier era to hit in to boot.
Kenny Lofton .372 OB%
Bip Roberts .358
Eric Young .359
David Segui .359
Jose Offerman .359
Deter Fowler .365
Luis Castillo .367
Willie Randolph .372
Tony Phillips .374
Dykstra .374
Grace .383
Hernandez .384
Raines .385
Magadan .390
Morgan .390
Mauer .392
Carew .393
Henderson .401.......lmao for the theory that pitchers didn't walk Ichiro(or he didn't draw walks) because it would be an automatic double!!! Case closed on that one.
The reality is that Ichiro wasn't a good enough hitter like Boggs or Henderson to be able to be selective to get hits on strikes, while also being selective to lay off pitches to draw walks. Ichiro was a high volume swinger, needing to commit to swing earlier to make contact, hence a LOT of weakly hit balls, even on his hits. He simply didn't have the skill set like the elite hitters to hit for both average and draw walks...or hit for power and draw walks like those elite hitters.
He was good at putting the bat on the ball and producing a lot of singles(many of which weren't any more valuable than walks because they only advanced runners one, or even zero bases0. In total, his hitting with an OPS+ of 108, which is lower than Tony Phillips, is pretty indicitive where he ranks all time as a hitter...somewhere by Tony Phillps
Apparently you can't read what I am writing. I was expressing a POSSIBLE reason his walk total was low. I also said he wasn't good at drawing walks. I NEVER said he had a good OB%. I merely stated that if I was pitching to him I would "let him hit the ball" and not try to be too fine with my pitches. Don't you understand strategy? Would you mess around with the pitcher if he was batting?
Only you could argue with someone who said a batter can't walk if the pitches are all strikes! LOL
Guys like Boggs and Henderson were WAY better hitters than Ichiro, everyone knows that.
I predicted the stat guys wouldn't get it.
Done here, have a great Holiday!
Are his Japanese cards rare? Is there a big card market in Japan?
Rose probably has more hits at the blackjack tables than Ichiro , are we counting those ?
If you have a spot , on your skin , craig , you might want to get it looked at.
One of the purest hitters of all time. Obvious Hall of Fame material. But NOT the all-time hit leader.
Dave
Where do you get such a list of BS!
2 and 4 and 6 are true , 5 is reasonably true .
For sure the even numbers are true without question
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Come on Mark. How did he cheat hitting. Why should he retire in 83. And the period he played in was a tough or tougher than Ichiro.
I'm not bashing Ichiro he is very good. But he is not the hitter that Rose was. And those who say singles hitters are not nearly as important as HR hitters....I say this. What is the difference between a hitter getting a hit with runners on 2nd and 3rd scoring 2 runs......and a guy hitting a HR with one on?????
Ichiro is one of the best hitters I’ve seen & it would have been interesting to see his MLB stats from ages 22 to 26. I’m a fan of the Boggs/Carew/Gwynn/Ichiro type hitters. I have a hard time with Rose’s career average and didn’t care for his persona prior to all the betting scandals...but I respect his records...
Toby Harrah & Bobby Grich were good players but don’t belong in this debate after reading back on the thread...
Altuve is my current favorite hitter - he’s amazing!
Edited to add: WAR is a product not a stat. It’s interesting but has flaws & subjectivity built in. I believe a single has more value than a walk.
Erik
Ichiro was very good at accumulating at bats and getting singles, many of which were of the infield variety. Even with all the singles, his OBP% is not very impressive along with his OPS and OPS+. He's essentially been a below average major league player since 2010 but stuck around to get 3,000 hits.
Rose was the better player, without question, though I expect Ichiro will be a first ballot HOFer. He is a likable guy and is a very popular player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He cheated by betting on baseball. He didn't cheat at hitting. He was hanging on for stats after 83. That's true. I probably would have done the same
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I never like Pete Rose, and since the word got out that he bet on baseball games I've despised him. But he was so much better than Ichiro that it pains me to see him dragged into a comparison with Ichiro. As for 1 through 6, here's my take:
No, he doesn't. Stop saying that. It hurts.
Just an opinion, so I can't say it's wrong, but Rose's OPS+ for both 1984 and 1985 was 99, or right at average. He sucked in 1986, but as I said somewhere else, every player ought to get a pass for his first awful year because there's no way to know when your first awful year will come. Once Rose had his, he retired, unlike Ichiro.
I don't know what "it" is, but yes he has a higher batting average than Rose. Comparing a player's batting average who played for Seattle in the liveliest ball era to another player who played through the second deadball era, and in the most competitive era in baseball history will produce silly results, as this demonstrates.
I don't know that he ever cheated, although betting against your own team - and I suspect that he did - would definitely be cheating. Non sequitur, to be sure, but this one could be true.
Bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaaa!
He did, although I don't think that changed the value of his Grandma Moses singles very much.
lots of players hang on past a reasonable time to chase records or even a paycheck. if we are to hold Pete Rose accountable for such a thing, we should hold accountable all the AL players who are only in MLB because of the DH, guys like Ortiz who would never have lasted as long.
Pete Rose may be hated or despised for cheating, but as Dimeman said, that had nothing to do with his hitting.
Ichiro was a prolific hitter and if I had never seen him play, had only his stats to consider, I suppose I would love and support him. unfortunately, I saw him play and never cared for his style of hitting. alas, that is bias and shouldn't be considered. his hit totals are what they are.
the hitter I remember is Rod Carew, a singles hitter like both Rose and Ichiro, only he did it better. he could hit behind the runner when he needed to or put the ball in play depending on where it was pitched. remarkably, all three players had right around 80% of their hits fall in as singles.
for MLB only and with almost the same number of hits(Ichiro actually had more) Rod Carew had 235 more RBI and nine more runs. Pete Rose is past them both. to my thinking, Ichiro wasn't even better than Rod Carew let alone Pete Rose.
Peak OPS+ top 5:
Carew 156 (career 131)
Rose 139 (118)
Cedeno 143 (123)
Tenace 140 (136)
Grich 137 (125)
Cey 134 (121)
Cruz 131 (120)
Fairly 126 (115)
Harrah 125 (114)
Ichiro 120 (107)
I just looked up people as they popped into my head; people that I think of as good hitters, but not HOF level hitters (although Grich was a HOF level player, including defense). Ichiro was a good hitter, he just wasn't as good a hitter as Ron Fairly or any of the others listed here (or a hundred others who aren't in the HOF).
"Ichiro was a good hitter, he just wasn't as good a hitter as Ron Fairly or any of the others listed here (or a hundred others who aren't in the HOF)"
Give it a rest... A hitters job is to initiate action and produce runs. You put too much emphasis in walks when you play around with numbers, wearing your actuarial wizard hat...
Erik
You can jockey the numbers around all you want, But Rose is and will remain the all-time hit leader.
Plus the man played 150% flat out every play. No trotting to first on a ground ball.
Great as a player. After that a total tool.
I'll agree to that. What gets me is that Gambling is an addiction just like Drinking. But how many alcoholics are in the HOF?
What sport are you watching where a walk doesn't "initiate action and produce runs"? Because it sure ain't baseball.
Isn't there a stat on how often a lead off walk comes around to score. And of course a walk with bases loaded is a RBI.
Ad total douche as well
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And when Pete Rose got the hit record, people referred to his lack of power ?
Ichiro spent 9 years in Japan
and when he comes here, he racks 200+ hits 10 straight years
safe to say he would have done it 19 straight years in the majors as well
who ever did that !?
who is to say he wouldn't have flirted with 300 hits in a season ?
also worthy to say, he had less hits against Japanese pitchers
maybe the talent over there isn't so bad
King ? who knows
but for sure an incredible hit maker
Yes, I laid all that info out in another thread. Anyone who has read that and still cannot understand the proper value of a walk is a moron...and it is at that point when one moves on.
agree? disagree?
not sure what you want to say
Assumption of possible performance statistics are the best statistics. Right up there with what players would have done during war years.
from age 27 to 36, he puts up monster numbers,
not just coming close
and you don't think the probability is VERY high,
he would have done just as well at age 18-26 ?
ball players have their prime in their 2nd half of their career ?
I thought I made a good argument
heck, I don't even own one of his cards
What is the average age of a MLB rookie? How many of those 9 years would have been spent in the minors if he were over here?