Why such a big deal over Ichiro's hit mark?
craig44
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Yes, it is a nice accomplishment, but 1200 of those hits came in Japan. There are some people who are acting like he is the new hit king. Should we add roses minor league stats to his total? I wonder how many hits julio franco had if you include Mexico and all the other leagues he played in. I think people need to pump the brakes a bit here. The Japanese league is not major league quality and Ichiro is not the new hit king.
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George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He's a much better hitter and overall player than many already in the hall of fame.
Name those "many" players. Yeah, he's better than Jim Rice and Highpockets Kelly, but he's only better than people who have no business being in the HOF, and only some of those. He'll make the HOF, and just add to the list of people with no business being there; he's not even close to deserving.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
that's laughable.
his entire "Game" is slapping the ball to left field as he starts out of the batters box towards first. there have been times when I bet he had already planted his right foot when he's made contact with the ball, very one dimensional and not really much of a threat, though he gets hyped quite a bit.
2. Pete Rose should've retired after 1983
3. Ichiro did it in 1,500 fewer at bats
4. Pete Rose cheated
5. Pitching is more competitive now than it was in the 1970's
6. Ichiro had to compete in the steroid era
Pete Rose can be the "Hit King" of the MLB, but Ichiro is the "Hit King" of all baseball.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
For what it's worth, no he doesn't. He has more professional hits than Rose had major league hits, but Rose was also paid to hit in the minors and is still several hundred "professional" hits ahead of Ichiro.
1. Ichiro has more professional hits
For what it's worth, no he doesn't. He has more professional hits than Rose had major league hits, but Rose was also paid to hit in the minors and is still several hundred "professional" hits ahead of Ichiro.
Hits at the highest professional level then. Either way, considering Ichiro's minor league hit total (and another couple seasons in the MLB), Ichiro will have more hits regardless.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Hits at the highest professional level then. Either way, considering Ichiro's minor league hit total (and another couple seasons in the MLB), Ichiro will have more hits regardless.
I don't think it's a given. He still could be ~300 behind. Do you know how many minor league hits Ichiro had in Japan?
that's laughable.
his entire "Game" is slapping the ball to left field as he starts out of the batters box towards first. there have been times when I bet he had already planted his right foot when he's made contact with the ball, very one dimensional and not really much of a threat, though he gets hyped quite a bit.
Production is production. It doesn't really matter how he did it. He was feared enough at the plate to lead the league in IBBs three times. And he had 9.1 WAR in a season - Roberto Clemente never did that.
Production is production. It doesn't really matter how he did it. He was feared enough at the plate to lead the league in IBBs three times. And he had 9.1 WAR in a season - Roberto Clemente never did that.
Production is production? Singles are as good as homers? What do you mean? Offensive production is a combination of getting on base, hitting for power and speed. Offensively, Ichiro has been in the top 10 in WAR three times - 5th, 7th and 9th. Compare that to Toby Harrah, who was in the top 10 of offensive WAR 5 times - 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 10th. Ichiro did have one great season where, including defense, he got 9.1 WAR; it was a great season no matter how you slice it, but it wasn't as great as Rico Petrocelli's 1969 season or Norm Cash's 1961 season, so one great season does not a Hall of Famer make. Ichiro's top 5 WAR is a little better than Toby Harrah's and a little worse than Bobby Grich's. We could have a good debate on whether Ichiro was better than Harrah for his career, but you'd embarrass yourself if you tried to argue that Ichiro was better than Grich; he wasn't close.
I have never seen intentional walks used as an argument for greatness, and I'm not sure how to respond. I note that he never had half as many IBB as the MLB leader, and that a big part of the reason he had so many IBB is the same reason he has so many hits - he came to bat more than anyone else. He only led the AL once in IBB per plate appearance. I will further note that if your argument on behalf of Ichiro depends in any part on his having drawn 15 intentional walks in 678 plate appearances, then I can almost taste the desperation.
Maybe he was a one-dimensional hitter, but he had a rocket for an arm, played good defense, and was a team leader and a pioneer for Japanese players. Just because he doesn't fit into a certain mold, doesnt count him out.
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not a Hall of Famer??? that's ridiculous. 10 All Star Games, 1 MVP, 1 ROY, 10 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, led the league in hits 7 times, led the league in average twice, holds the MLB record for most hits in a season (with 2 more top 20 overall), will have over 3000 hits and average over 200 hits per season, even with his injury plagued and recent decline. Had he started in the MLB even 5 years earlier, he'd be beating down Rose's hit total, no doubt.
Maybe he was a one-dimensional hitter, but he had a rocket for an arm, played good defense, and was a team leader and a pioneer for Japanese players. Just because he doesn't fit into a certain mold, doesnt count him out.
A big +1
Besides, the guy did it all during the most competitive decade in baseball history.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
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Production is production? Singles are as good as homers? What do you mean?
Really? I was probably about 3 years old when I knew a HR was better than a single.
Here's what I mean by production is production...
9.1 WAR is 9.1 WAR. Any team would love to have a player with 9.1 WAR no matter how it is accomplished. eg. a singles hitter with 9.1 WAR is the same as a HR hitter with 9.1 WAR.
Offensive production is a combination of getting on base, hitting for power and speed. Offensively, Ichiro has been in the top 10 in WAR three times - 5th, 7th and 9th. Compare that to Toby Harrah, who was in the top 10 of offensive WAR 5 times - 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 10th. Ichiro did have one great season where, including defense, he got 9.1 WAR; it was a great season no matter how you slice it, but it wasn't as great as Rico Petrocelli's 1969 season or Norm Cash's 1961 season, so one great season does not a Hall of Famer make. Ichiro's top 5 WAR is a little better than Toby Harrah's and a little worse than Bobby Grich's. We could have a good debate on whether Ichiro was better than Harrah for his career, but you'd embarrass yourself if you tried to argue that Ichiro was better than Grich; he wasn't close.
I don't know why you wasted your time typing that. I didn't even compare Ichiro to those guys.
I have never seen intentional walks used as an argument for greatness, and I'm not sure how to respond.
Did I say that IBBs made him great??? Read, dude.
I was responding to this: "his entire "Game" is slapping the ball to left field as he starts out of the batters box towards first. there have been times when I bet he had already planted his right foot when he's made contact with the ball, very one dimensional and not really much of a threat".
A leadoff hitter that leads the league in IBBs is certainly a threat.
He's likely to get into the HOF on the first ballot based on his popularity and hit totals, but I can't think of a player in the HOF with a lower career OPS+ than Ichiro's 108
There are ~24 such players.
Phil Rizzuto, Nellie Fox, Ozzie Smith, Lloyd Waner, Brooks Robinson, etc.
I will get an argument from the Ichiro crowd, but his first nine seasons were little more than Minor League appearances. you simply can't equate playing over in Japan as playing in the US, no matter how hard you try to defend that point. also, I don't think anyone in the thread is trying to argue that he isn't a good player or even a very good one who had some really great seasons.
It's the best league in Asia and has had MLB caliber players since at least the 1960's. The league has weakened ever since it opened up to the US, but I would argue that the level of competition in Japan in the early 90's, pre integration, was incredibly strong.
Not that it's any significant indication, but Japan has historically dominated both the Olympics and World Baseball Classic over the years.
Ichiro saw a slight decline against US pitchers, but overall had his best seasons in the United States.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
I will get an argument from the Ichiro crowd, but his first nine seasons were little more than Minor League appearances. you simply can't equate playing over in Japan as playing in the US, no matter how hard you try to defend that point.
I'm not aware of a single person that thinks that Japan = MLB
He's likely to get into the HOF on the first ballot based on his popularity and hit totals, but I can't think of a player in the HOF with a lower career OPS+ than Ichiro's 108, and that's as an OF to boot.
Brooks Robinson was a first ballot hall of famer and he had a career ops+ of 104.
Brooks Robinson had a career hit line of .267/.322/.401
Ichiro has a career hit line of .314/.356/.405
Ichiro has 504 stolen bases, Brooks had 28
Ichiro had 10 consecutive gold gloves, Brooks had 16
Ichiro missed six years of his prime, Brooks missed none.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
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Also, there are many journeymen players from MLB who became slugging stars in Japan. See Tuffy Rhodes and Wladimir Balentien. The level of play in Japan is not on the same level as MLB.
100% true.
I've been to several games in Japan. The fans are great. The players are ok. The pitching is way sub par after you get past the #1 starter.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part. Even if you pitch him right down the middle he's most likely only going to get a single (again, good chance he ends up on 2nd) or a double (there's second base again). If you put the ball over the plate, two thirds of the time he's going to make an out. As a pitcher, I would hate Ichiro, but I would make him earn his way on.
I think this scenario makes a CERTAIN amount of sense. I really don't care much for Ichiro, but I only like guys with at least a little power. He deserves the HOF in my opinion, great hitter for average, great baserunner, great arm.
Mickey Mantle was quoted after seeing Pete Rose; "If I hit like that I'd wear a skirt!"
Say what you will about those pesky singles hitters, but I'm sure that the HR hitters/RBI machines that follow them are glad they are on base when they unload their HRs. A HR w/o base runners, like those single machines provide, equate to less runs scored and RBI totals for those RBI machines. How else would HR hitters pad their RBI totals w/o those pesky singles hitters.
Table setters are important. Just not as important as the heavy lifters
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Also, there are many journeymen players from MLB who became slugging stars in Japan. See Tuffy Rhodes and Wladimir Balentien. The level of play in Japan is not on the same level as MLB.
Of course that is true, but some players in MLB have greatly improved their numbers even though they stayed in MLB. Take a look at Jose Bautista's career. His numbers look as if he started playing in Japan in 2010. His career WAR before that season was 0.0. Then he put up 6.9 and 8.1 in back to back years.
Who is to say that Rhodes and Balentien didn't just greatly improve like Jose Bautista did? Or perhaps Rhodes and Balentien were on steroids(?). I read that Rhodes went from 175 lbs to 220, which is similar to Bonds.
Also, David Ortiz, Paul Molitor, Brady Anderson.
I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
Also, there are many journeymen players from MLB who became slugging stars in Japan. See Tuffy Rhodes and Wladimir Balentien. The level of play in Japan is not on the same level as MLB.
Of course that is true, but some players in MLB have greatly improved their numbers even though they stayed in MLB. Take a look at Jose Bautista's career. His numbers look as if he started playing in Japan in 2010. His career WAR before that season was 0.0. Then he put up 6.9 and 8.1 in back to back years.
Who is to say that Rhodes and Balentien didn't just greatly improve like Jose Bautista did? Or perhaps Rhodes and Balentien were on steroids(?). I read that Rhodes went from 175 lbs to 220, which is similar to Bonds.
Also, David Ortiz, Paul Molitor, Brady Anderson.
Hey, if you want to assert that the talent level in Japanese baseball is on par with MLB, go right ahead. But looking back at one of your earlier posts in this very thread, I don't think you believe that.
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Also, there are many journeymen players from MLB who became slugging stars in Japan. See Tuffy Rhodes and Wladimir Balentien. The level of play in Japan is not on the same level as MLB.
Of course that is true, but some players in MLB have greatly improved their numbers even though they stayed in MLB. Take a look at Jose Bautista's career. His numbers look as if he started playing in Japan in 2010. His career WAR before that season was 0.0. Then he put up 6.9 and 8.1 in back to back years.
Who is to say that Rhodes and Balentien didn't just greatly improve like Jose Bautista did? Or perhaps Rhodes and Balentien were on steroids(?). I read that Rhodes went from 175 lbs to 220, which is similar to Bonds.
Also, David Ortiz, Paul Molitor, Brady Anderson.
Hey, if you want to assert that the talent level in Japanese baseball is on par with MLB, go right ahead. But looking back at one of your earlier posts in this very thread, I don't think you believe that.
Sigh. I already said they're not on the same level.
Jose Bautista's numbers went from below average to way above average and he didn't change leagues. Tuffy Rhodes changed leagues, but maybe his numbers improved because of multiples factors. More inferior league (15%), improvement as a player (50%), and (35%) use of steroids(?). Maybe something like that - one can only guess. If you think Japan is far worse than MLB, then how come Ichiro didn't get far worse when he moved to MLB? Heck, his 2nd highest BA ever came in MLB.
Very pedestrian. Harmon killebrew has a .19 advantage over ichiro in that department. Ichiro was a one trick pony offensively, and his one trick wasn't that impressive. He just accumulated a lot of at bats and swung away.
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Rose IS and will ALWAYS be the ALLTIME hit leader!
Finally, I agree with Dimeman, lol..
And mlbfan, you wouldn't have to sigh so much if you didn't keep contradicting yourself. I don't think you even realize it but just like to take an opposing viewpoint.
Maybe this happened, maybe that happened...add it all up and it's a lot of maybes to twist the facts to support your assertions and speculations. It is entertaining to wonder, though, lol..
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I keep contradicting myself.
Fixed.
I keep contradicting myself.
Fixed.
Like I said, entertaining, lol..
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I do not give Ichiro credit for hits made before he played in MLB.
There IS something I want to comment on as far as the criticism of him not walking. This question is for the Baseball guys, the stat worshipers won't understand.
Why on earth would any pitcher with ANY control walk Ichiro? For much of his career walking him ends up with him on 2nd base without much effort on Ichiro's part.
Well, they normally wouldn't want to walk him. But if there's a runner on 2nd, or 2nd/3rd, then things are different.
You're overstating how often he would steal. He had 4662 SB opportunities (on 1st or 2nd with next base open) in his career, and has 504 SBs. He has 393 steals of 2nd, and 94 CS. So, it wasn't exactly a sure "double" if you walked him.
As a pitcher, I'm going to want to throw him strikes. It's not about how often he stole second base, it's the thinking that he is a very good base stealer and if I walk him, he could end up on second, so why not just pitch it over the plate and hope he hits it to a fielder?
It's also about having a fast runner on base, a guy who will end up in scoring position more often than most because of his speed. I am also considering his going from first to third on a single and even scoring from first on a double.
That doesn't change a whole lot with men on base because when most other players get a hit it's more likely to be a "real" hit and not some dinky bloop into left field which is not much better than a walk (except with a man on third, of course).
Generally speaking, the way I would pitch to him is not to waste my pitches trying to "nibble" just throw it over the plate and let him hit it.
My point is that it's hard to walk a lot if the pitchers aren't pitching you carefully, so it MIGHT not have been that possible for him to walk much more. It's easy to look at his stats and say "he didn't walk enough" and I am sure he could have been a little better, but to assume he could have walked significantly more often may not be realistic.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much. Again, as a pitcher I am going to try MUCH harder to keep Ichiro off the basepaths than a guy like Killebrew who has much less speed and poorer batters coming up behind him in the order. Besides the fact that a slugger will be much more likely to hit a home run.
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P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much.
Fair enough, let's compare him to other leadoff hitters. I won't compare him to leadoff hitters in the HOF since that would be cruel to Ichiro, but to some not in the HOF.
Ichiro
OBP .357
SLG .405
SB% 81%
WAR/162 4.02
Raines
OBP .385
SLG .425
SB% 85%
WAR/162 4.47
Lofton
OBP .372
SLG .423
SB% 80%
WAR/162 5.25
Knoblauch
OBP .378
SLG .406
SB% 78%
WAR/162 4.43
Raines beats Ichiro at everything; he wasn't a great fielder but he was such a better hitter that it doesn't matter. Ichiro nips Lofton by 1% in SB%, but Lofton was just as good a fielder and a much better hitter. Ichiro beat Knoblauch by a few points in SB%, but Knoblauch, as a Gold Glove infielder, had more fielding value than Ichiro and was also a better hitter. Bottom line, Tim Raines, Kenny Lofton and Chuck Knoblauch were better baseball players than Ichiro. If you disagree, you're wrong. If you agree and are instead arguing that the HOF line needs to be lowered to accommodate players like Ichiro then just say that and we can stop talking about Ichiro. If you want him in the HOF for being a Japanese trailblazer, fine, say that. If you want him in the HOF because he accumulated 3,000 hits (or soon will) then say that. But the people arguing that he's a HOFer because he was just so damn good at baseball that he deserves it on the merits just need to stop.
The argument for Ichiro making the HOF is most similar to Lou Brock's. Neither Brock nor Ichiro were great hitters, but they got 3,000 hits and were very famous. I have a personal bias towards Brock having grown up worshiping the man, but I will readily admit that he is among the worst players in the HOF. I thought he deserved induction because when he retired he was the best ever at something, held records that people cared about, and was a World Series hero. He is also the nicest man you will ever meet. Weak as it is, that's his case. He, like Ichiro, was not nearly a good enough hitter to merit induction on those terms; he, much like Bill Mazeroski, deserved induction for reasons other than his playing value to his teams. He did things worth honoring, and the HOF agreed. Has Ichiro done things worth honoring? I can see the case, and won't object at all if people make the case that he has, as long as "he was a great hitter" is left out of those arguments because it's simply not true. Ichiro was not a great hitter; any argument he has for the HOF must be made along the same lines as Brock and Mazeroski or it's just a silly argument.
P.S. Comparing his OB% to that of any slugger doesn't prove much.
Fair enough, let's compare him to other leadoff hitters. I won't compare him to leadoff hitters in the HOF since that would be cruel to Ichiro, but to some not in the HOF.
Ichiro
OBP .357
SLG .405
SB% 81%
WAR/162 4.02
Raines
OBP .385
SLG .425
SB% 85%
WAR/162 4.47
Lofton
OBP .372
SLG .423
SB% 80%
WAR/162 5.25
Knoblauch
OBP .378
SLG .406
SB% 78%
WAR/162 4.43
Okay, here are their numbers when normalizing age:
Ichiro (27-42)
OBP .357
SLG .405
SB% 81%
WAR/162 4.3
Raines (27-42)
OBP .378
SLG .408
SB% 80%
WAR/162 4.2
Lofton (27-42)
OBP .371
SLG .431
SB% 80%
WAR/162 4.2
Knoblauch (27-33)
OBP .377
SLG .413
SB% 79%
WAR/162 3.9
Ichiro has a higher WAR and higher SB% than all three of those players. There is no question he was a better lead off hitter.
Also, Ichiro had one of the best ten year spans any lead off hitter has ever had in history:
2001-2010 (10 years)
Ichiro (27-36)
BA .331
OBP .376
SLG .430
SB% 81.3%
OPS+ 117
WAR/162 5.4
10 All-Star Appearances
10 Gold Gloves
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Because of ichiros traditionally poor swing mechanics, he couldn't let pitches get deep into the zone before starting his swing. He was often already starting toward first as the ball entered the zone, so he was starting at a disadvantage and couldn't have good zone control. thus it often seemed he was flailing at the ball and didn't take a lot of pitches. If he had less movement when batting, he could have watched the ball further into the zone and been able to lay off bad pitches and gotten more walks. There is a reason you don't see more batters who swing like ichiro, because it makes a difficult action(hiting) even more difficult
Apparently you would deduct style points, if baseball was like gymnastics.
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