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Would this be considered an Error worth grading, consensus is Die Scratches...with photos..added Obv

Thought this looked interesting so I bought it. I haven't seen die cracks running like this before. Is this common?


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Comments

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Possibly heavy die polish lines?
  • Don't be shy Realone, it's not silly putty, but what then is it?

    I'd not thought of die polish.....
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would call them die scratches instead of die cracks.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

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    image
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,776 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I call em die cracks. These are in fact die cracks the way I see it. Small but I believe enough to suck the material into the little boogers.
    I don't know everything so please educate me if I'm wrong. image

    Here's a die crack, isn't it? Don't tell me it's a moustache either.

    [url=http://postimage.org/]image[/url]
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    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Cass, maybe those are " Hand Reengraved" lines from the Mint? image

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

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  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is messed up.



    Edit: Messed up in a kinda cool way. image

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • ksuscottksuscott Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TomB
    I would call them die scratches instead of die cracks.


    image

    Look too uniform to be cracks
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, let's get the terminology right image

    The Washington Quarter pictured has some unusual die scratches on it. Notice how the die scratches disappear when they go "under" a letter. This is because they were caused by something that scratched across the die face. And the scratching object only contacted the high points on the die (which corresponds to the low field areas on the coin).

    A die crack is just that - a crack in the die. Die cracks are almost always deep - they extend deep into the shank of the die. They will go right through letters, or sometimes follow part way around the perimeter of a letter. But a die break won't stop at the edge of a letter and then mysteriously start again on the other side of the letter.

    A die break usually starts off as a die crack, but in addition, a piece or pieces of the die have completely broken away. This void in the die leaves an apparent "lump of extra metal" on the struck coin.

    A cud die break is where a fairly large piece of the die breaks away near the perimeter.

    The Peace Dollar "moustache" is a die break (and a nice VAM in this case as well).

    There is also a die break on the Washington Quarter (on the wing near the "T" of UNITED).

    The die scratches on the Washington Quarter are fairly deep and unusual.
  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are correct Daniel. These terms are often incorrectly used. One that I see often misused, especially on eBay, is CUD. To simplify your definition a little, for a coin to have a CUD, the die break MUST include the rim.
  • Thanks for the replies, I guess I learn something new everyday. I don't recall hearing/seeing Die Scratches before. If I got it right, the die was "mishandled/scratched at the mint prior to striking. That's why I love this place.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE

    Thanks for the replies, I guess I learn something new everyday. I don't recall hearing/seeing Die Scratches before. If I got it right, the die was "mishandled/scratched at the mint prior to striking. That's why I love this place.




    When illustrating a coin with cracks, lines, etc It would be very helpful to show the coin in at least two orientations with the light. In this case, include another with the lines "flipped" with the "high" ends at the top left of the photo.



    BTW, I have never seen fairly uniform, parallel, raised lines (so die scratches) like this on ANY coin. so you have something very different and interesting.



    What is the date of the coin so other members can look for a match?



    Die scratches are not considered to be damage. They are common on coins and result from different "operations" the mint employees use on dies for different reasons such as to remove unwanted marks from a used die. I'm trying to be very general here. If you have never seen a "die scratch" before there are many discussions on the different coin forums.



    Note: Some of the opinions about die scratches on CoinTalk are BS!
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: joeykoins
    Hey Cass, maybe those are " Hand Reengraved" lines from the Mint? image


    It sure looks like someone was practicing their craft at the mint. Could this be a die that was not supposed to be used again?
  • Added some pics of the obverse, it's a 57D



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  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: davewesen

    Originally posted by: joeykoins

    Hey Cass, maybe those are " Hand Reengraved" lines from the Mint? image




    It sure looks like someone was practicing their craft at the mint. Could this be a die that was not supposed to be used again?





    IMO, Not. The engravers do not practice by putting lines on dies. I've see several 25c with this type of lines...Look at the wings of Proofs in the 50's or 60's (cannot remember). Those lines were put on the die to accentuate the feathers and are easily seen to be done on purpose!



    These lines are EXTREMELY unusual. They add nothing to the coin and I for one cannot see any reason for them.



    I WISH the OP would take another photo with the light/coin in a different position as so far I'm in 100% agreement with everything D. Carr posted.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Insider2

    Originally posted by: davewesen

    Originally posted by: joeykoins

    Hey Cass, maybe those are " Hand Reengraved" lines from the Mint? image




    It sure looks like someone was practicing their craft at the mint. Could this be a die that was not supposed to be used again?





    IMO, Not. They engravers do not practice by putting lines on dies. I've see several 25c with this type of lines...Look at the wings of Proofs in the 50's or 60's (cannot remember). Those lines were put on the die to accentuate the feathers and are easily seen to be done on purpose!



    These lines are EXTREMELY unusual. They add nothing to the coin and I for one cannot see any reason for them.



    I WISH the OP would take another photo with the light/coin in a different position as so far I'm in 100% agreement with everything D. Carr posted.




    Added some pics of the obverse, it's a 57D



    OK, now we know the coin's date. All the raised lines on the obvers are die polish EXCEPT the dark line at the base of the bust.



    THESE photos are not helpful! NEED to see the REVERSE! Please photo it in sever degrees of rotation. I am bothered by how deep a few of the lines (that so far look like RAISED die polish) CROSS into semi-deep areas of the relief (leaf). This is possible with die polish but I should like to be 100% sure for my own education as I have NEVER seen parallel die polish that is a uniform distance apart.



  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: crazyhounddog
    I call em die cracks. These are in fact die cracks the way I see it. Small but I believe enough to suck the material into the little boogers.
    I don't know everything so please educate me if I'm wrong. image

    Here's a die crack, isn't it? Don't tell me it's a moustache either.

    [url=http://postimage.org/]image[/url]
    [url=http://postimage.org/]image hosting site no sign up[/url]


    I thought it was a mustache but it's snot. image
  • Whelp, I'm kinda limited as all I got is this cheapie digital micro scope, but I am getting dizzy.

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  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭
    That is odd. I think there's a combination of a clash, a couple of die cracks and chips, and massive die scratches.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Still a very interesting coin. If I saw the top photo alone, I should reply that the dark lines were "scratches" into the wing! In all the other photos the lines appear to be raised die scratches.



    Anyone here ever wish they had not viewed a thread? Only kidding...LOL.

  • Added a few more pics, the lines definitely appear raised, can't get better photos and actually I think they look about as good as it's gonna get.

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  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .

    cool and unusual die gouges/scratches.



    why in the....? the world may never know. image

    .

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  • kookoox10kookoox10 Posts: 538 ✭✭✭
    If it was any deeper or stronger, I'd say they might be trying to cancel the die out in a crude manner.
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess: Based on the parallel nature of the deeper lines, I'd say someone gave the die a quick cleaning with a wire brush.



    In general, the die seems to have been used beyond its prescribed lifetime, given the break, and significant die polish. Maybe someone just tried to keep it going until quitting time.....
    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool, thanks for posting.

    I have looked at my share of Washingtons, and can say I've never seen another like it.

    Great pics also.
  • Would this be considered some sort of error? Figured I'd ask before it goes into the box of "Coin Stuff"

    Thx...
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE

    Would this be considered some sort of error? Figured I'd ask before it goes into the box of "Coin Stuff"



    Thx...




    i doubt it is worth the error fee but i wont say i wouldnt get it graded on the cheap.



    ive seen far less worthy coins in holders. many.

    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Very unusual set of die scratches. There's a possibility that these represent intentional vandalism by a mint employee. There is a 1957-D business strike quarter with re-engraved tail feathers that show similar, albeit heavier scratches along the feathers: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182121835342
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting coin...definitely die scratches, however, I am at a loss as to explain why or how they were imparted ....dcarr, thanks for posting those definitions, they are very helpful to less experienced forum members... Cheers, RickO

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