What constitutes a "tooled" coin
ArizonaRareCoins
Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
Here's a coin that has had it's reverse fields "smoothed" or "tooled" to minimize the effect of the heavy clusters of marks:
1844-o $10 Gold NGC-UNC reverse tooled
NGC graded this coin as NGC UNC details reverse tooled.
Just recently, this SAME coin was sold, in a different TPG graded holder, on eBay:
1844-o Gold ICG-MS62
ICG graded this same coin as ICG MS-62.
The reverse fields have clearly been messed with PM, did ICG just miss this or do they consider a certain amount of "tooling" acceptable?
1844-o $10 Gold NGC-UNC reverse tooled
NGC graded this coin as NGC UNC details reverse tooled.
Just recently, this SAME coin was sold, in a different TPG graded holder, on eBay:
1844-o Gold ICG-MS62
ICG graded this same coin as ICG MS-62.
The reverse fields have clearly been messed with PM, did ICG just miss this or do they consider a certain amount of "tooling" acceptable?
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I will be real close to one of the rules at the top of the page.
Maybe someone tried to obliterate some graffiti?
I would think that NGC got it right. Strange.
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The grader is positive the two coins are the same. The Ebay photo is "virtually useless" possibly to hide the hits. Both services graded the coin Uncirculated. ICG graded it MS-62 with a note on the grading screen "Excessive Marks." That is why it did not grade higher. NGC claimed the coin was tooled but we'll never know the MS grade they would have given it. ICG saw "NO EVIDENCE of repair or tooling on the coin under a microscope to hide anything"; however, the reverse of the coin is heavily pock-marked. "That may be NGC's incorrect definition of tooling." The quotes are his words.
Some coins, if submitted 10 times to a variety of services will come back with a narrow range of opinions. Other coins will be all over the place, due to any number of hard-to-quantify factors. These coins often live in the murky grey-zone between "OK" and "Problem coin", or between AU and BU. This coin appears to be one of the "difficult" ones.
Edited to add:
From the photos, I wonder if the coin was "reworked" between the two grading events. The HA photo shows damage that really looks to have been deliberately done to hide something. either the second photo or the coin itself was doctored. I don't think any adjustment in lighting technique could look that different.
As for the "tooled" notation on the NGC holder, the marks on the reverse of that coin look like something that was done with a sharp instrument of some kind and not other coins. As such it was done with a "tool." Perhaps there were initials or other graffiti on the reverse, and this was a crude way of hiding it.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I think that the second set of pictures of the ICG holder have been photo shopped. I've done something similar fooling around with my software, although this guy has done it with a bit more finesse that I've been able to do. The ICG coin seller is probably figuring that the buyer won't know how to look at the coin closely enough to see that the marks have been electronically smoothed.
As for the "tooled" notation on the NGC holder, the marks on the reverse of that coin look like something that was done with a sharp instrument of some kind and not other coins. As such it was done with a "tool." Perhaps there were initials or other graffiti on the reverse, and this was a crude way of hiding it.
I agree with you. Very often the surface of a coin is "stippled - making tiny marks w/a sharp tool" to mimic bag marks when hiding a repair.
I'm sorry to disagree with you but after carefully examining both reverses, it does appear to be two different coins! The one by NGC is totally machine gunned with hits (tooled), as to the ICG coin, alot less hits on the reverse.
Here's a better picture that clearly shows they are the same coin:
1844-o $10 Gold NGC-ICG
The buyer may not be happy if he bought from the sellers photos alone . . .
HH
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JMO, but the e-Bay pics look photoshopped to me (or he got some extremely flattering camera angles).
The buyer may not be happy if he bought from the sellers photos alone . . .
HH
Well, the buyer did pay $8,100 and promptly sent it to GC and it sold for $5,375......so he did lose almost $3,000 on the deal. I just wonder why he didn't just return the coin back to the guy he bought it from on eBay if he wasn't happy with the coin.
1844-o $10 Gold GC $5,375
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JMO, but the e-Bay pics look photoshopped to me (or he got some extremely flattering camera angles).
The buyer may not be happy if he bought from the sellers photos alone . . .
HH
Well, the buyer did pay $8,100 and promptly sent it to GC and it sold for $5,375......so he did lose almost $3,000 on the deal. I just wonder why he didn't just return the coin back to the guy he bought it from on eBay if he wasn't happy with the coin.
1844-o $10 Gold GC $5,375
Our old pal Centsles was the "seller" at $8100. But then again, we can't even be sure if the coin actually traded hands for real among these various transactions.
Repair-ed evidenced on several places and the most obvious place is on AMERIC"A". Check out that "A" .... It is un-natural
I disagree. IMO, there is NOTHING unusual on the letters of "America." I see a few hits on the "A" which is normal.
Additionally, I value the opinion of a "seasoned" grader/authenticator who remembered the coin and examined it using a stereo microscope due to the pattern of marks on the reverse.
Photos are just that - photos. Lots can be done with them as seen in the "poor" image of the ICG coin that was used to sell it on Ebay.