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TrueView option after grading...seems like a good idea to me

Wouldn't it be nice if after your coin graded and assuming it graded to your expectations you could add TrueView after the fact? And I don't mean having it returned and then mailing it back in then having it returned again.

I'm not a proponent of imaging coins that say for whatever reason come back less than expected, ie damaged or low grades but occasionally on a POP 1 for example it'd be great to add the image, even after the fact and through the plastic.

Let's say there'd be a 24 hour window after the grades/email notice to click add trueview?

Why or why not?

Comments

  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Images are taken before it goes in the slab. And many are not imaged unless paid for in advance.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually, I think, for the collector, it is a good idea. Our hosts might look into this to see

    if there is a viable business process that could allow such an option. Cheers, RickO
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Silly idea. Plastic makes for bad images plus a lot more work. Bad idea.
  • Nonsense, coins are shot through slabs all the time. As far as payment, why wouldn't a person expect to pay for the service? It's click click and paid.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭
    Barring the possible negative logistical effects for PCGS, I'd personally like this option.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is a growing number of TrueViews shot through the slab, so the OP's ask is technically doable.

    On what percentage of submissions would a submitter use this service?
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE

    Wouldn't it be nice if after your coin graded and assuming it graded to your expectations you could add TrueView after the fact? And I don't mean having it returned and then mailing it back in then having it returned again.



    I'm not a proponent of imaging coins that say for whatever reason come back less than expected, ie damaged or low grades but occasionally on a POP 1 for example it'd be great to add the image, even after the fact and through the plastic.



    Let's say there'd be a 24 hour window after the grades/email notice to click add trueview?



    Why or why not?






    I think these days all of the better coins are imaged, just not TV. TVs are tied to a cert number so if it doesn't grade, it may not TV. They could have 2 check boxes. TV regardless or TV only if it grades. Not rocket science.





  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, doing a truview, AFTER grading, seems like a good idea to you?



    From your standpoint, I can understand that. What's it worth to you, however? Is it worth a longer delay in getting back your coins? Is it worth an extra $5, $10, $15+?



    Everything has a cost.



    It should be understood that PCGS has a process and any change to that process may cause issues, up to and including, added expenditures/resources.



    Also, given a perceived value/reputation with the quality of the photos, would PCGS want another version of the truview around that isn't taken "raw"? I doubt it. Therefore, the coin, "after grading", would need another injection point to get photoed.



    Now, there would be TWO injection points into the process, for photo'ing. Adds complexity and a higher chance of mistakes/delays/problems.







    Personally, for the cost, I would rather just select truview PRIOR to grading. I generally have an idea of what I want photo'ed or not. If it is a pop 1, and I wasn't prepared for that, bummer.



    I am NOT a fan of trying to 1-off businesses and their processes, as it can cause issues in too many ways....and then people would be complaining about that.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Bochiman
    would PCGS want another version of the truview around that isn't taken "raw"?


    PCGS may be okay with TrueViews that aren't taken raw since they are doing it more often by request and at shows. Sometimes it's what the collector wants and sometimes it's more convenient if it's been encapsulated already.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree that images taken through plastic (especially PCGS's new plastic) can be just about as good as those taken raw. But it is more difficult and time consuming.



    For starters, when shooting raw coins focus is set just once. With slabs each side needs refocusing because the coin is almost never centered, front to back. So there's a good deal of work to get very large images especially crisp. (If you are a decent photographer you understand this, I'm sure, including the occasional need to shim slabs for tilted coins.)



    So, for example, let's say you submit a dozen coins of the same series for True Views. Focus is set once for 24 images. Shooting the same dozen after slabbing would require 24 adjustments to focus.



    Then there is lighting. It's a breeze with raw coins...no glare. Slabs can be tricky to avoid glare and properly balance lighting.



    This is not to mention the workflow changes and overhead.



    IMO there is zero chance of PCGS adopting the notions in the OP.

    Lance.



  • I dug this up, and while not on par with my silly thoughts, this Phil Arnold guy seemed to invite suggestions:

    Another possibility in TrueView's future is the further acceptance of taking through-the-holder photos of coins. Some people, for a variety of reasons, do not want to crack coins out of their older holders. Others, from a somewhat philosophical standpoint, prefer coin images taken through the holder. We have made exceptions and have taken such photos on occasion, but should this be part of the standard service?

    I remember a time not so long ago when I was fretting over how many gigabytes I had available to me in my archives. Now it seems I have more terabytes than I know what to do with. In early 2012 we started to keep every single image taken of any coin. Sometimes I'll just take one or two shots of a coin, other times I'll get a tricky one and take a hundred. TrueViews usually get more shots than average compared to a coin photographed just for our archives. This has the advantage of allowing me to make any changes or corrections well after the fact. It also comes in handy if I'm not sure what the customer is looking for, because a coin can really look drastically different depending on the lighting. So I may send a customer a link to the raw files I have for them to peruse in order to get their input. Making this part of the regular service may make things much more time-consuming and inefficient, but could it be an additional service? Could we show multiple TrueViews?

    These are just three possible directions the TrueView service could take in 2014, but there are many other alternatives we could consider to make the TrueView service more modern, and more attractive to submitters. Please email me at philarnold@pcgs.com with your thoughts and suggestions.
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE
    Nonsense, coins are shot through slabs all the time. As far as payment, why wouldn't a person expect to pay for the service? It's click click and paid.


    You are obviously NOT a photographer.
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: lkeigwin

    I agree that images taken through plastic (especially PCGS's new plastic) can be just about as good as those taken raw. But it is more difficult and time consuming.



    For starters, when shooting raw coins focus is set just once. With slabs each side needs refocusing because the coin is almost never centered, front to back. So there's a good deal of work to get very large images especially crisp. (If you are a decent photographer you understand this, I'm sure, including the occasional need to shim slabs for tilted coins.)



    So, for example, let's say you submit a dozen coins of the same series for True Views. Focus is set once for 24 images. Shooting the same dozen after slabbing would require 24 adjustments to focus.



    Then there is lighting. It's a breeze with raw coins...no glare. Slabs can be tricky to avoid glare and properly balance lighting.



    This is not to mention the workflow changes and overhead.



    IMO there is zero chance of PCGS adopting the notions in the OP.

    Lance.







    Lance is right, this shot below (the raw Rupia Goa coin) had 2 clicks (one obverse, one reverse, took no time at all)...while the show below (the PCGS Peace $1) took considerable time (nearly 20 different shots before the lighting and all was of high quality, and time treating the slab with mineral oil to subdue the hairlines/streaks).



    image



    image



  • Originally posted by: ErrorsOnCoins
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE
    Nonsense, coins are shot through slabs all the time. As far as payment, why wouldn't a person expect to pay for the service? It's click click and paid.


    You are obviously NOT a photographer.


    Based on what assessment do you make this statement?

    Phil Arnold is a photographer and as he indicated above sometimes he make take 100 shots on a tricky coin...

    Do you think he gets paid by the shot?

    Or do you assume "ain't nobody got time for that"? Or maybe he just says I quit when it becomes something more than an automated process.

    Or maybe as a photographer coins become harder to shoot what with all the specialized knowledge and what not. Seems to me it would be a breeze if one were a professed photographer.

    Or maybe you misinterpreted my click click to be camera shots rather than as payment in response to the above suggestion that somehow paying for said service would be any type of issue. Maybe read it again as I in no way suggested it's easy to do, just convenient as an option.



  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,839 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's let them focus on figuring out how to combine multiple orders to one return shipment before any other distractions or programs
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE
    Originally posted by: ErrorsOnCoins
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE
    Nonsense, coins are shot through slabs all the time. As far as payment, why wouldn't a person expect to pay for the service? It's click click and paid.


    You are obviously NOT a photographer.


    Based on what assessment do you make this statement?

    Phil Arnold is a photographer and as he indicated above sometimes he make take 100 shots on a tricky coin...

    Do you think he gets paid by the shot?

    Or do you assume "ain't nobody got time for that"? Or maybe he just says I quit when it becomes something more than an automated process.

    Or maybe as a photographer coins become harder to shoot what with all the specialized knowledge and what not. Seems to me it would be a breeze if one were a professed photographer.

    Or maybe you misinterpreted my click click to be camera shots rather than as payment in response to the above suggestion that somehow paying for said service would be any type of issue. Maybe read it again as I in no way suggested it's easy to do, just convenient as an option.






    Just weird.

    As you say yourself, it takes a lot of extra time to shoot through palstic, Plus the results are worse.


    TIME is the factor here.

    TIME is money.
  • I didn't say it takes a lot of extra time, Phil said it, on some coins he may take 100 shots, and that's for RAW coins.... The comments so far were that it would take too much time because it's difficult. Seems it wouldn't bother Phil, and I'm sure he could shoot through plastic. I have been asked before why no TrueView? If I could have added it after the fact I would consider this option is all I am suggesting. Grading costs add up and you can't Trueview everything but sometimes it'd be nice on a large submission to add it after the fact.
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE

    Wouldn't it be nice if after your coin graded and assuming it graded to your expectations you could add TrueView after the fact? And I don't mean having it returned and then mailing it back in then having it returned again.



    I'm not a proponent of imaging coins that say for whatever reason come back less than expected, ie damaged or low grades but occasionally on a POP 1 for example it'd be great to add the image, even after the fact and through the plastic.



    Let's say there'd be a 24 hour window after the grades/email notice to click add trueview?



    Why or why not?
    I actually like the idea.



    The way I read the proposal would be to allow a brief window after grades post for the option of requesting a TrueView. I'd be willing to pay a couple dollars a coin more for grading if I wanted to have a post grade, but PRE-ENCAPSULATION TrueView option. Most of the objections here presume the photos would be taken through the slab, I don't think that's at all the OP's proposal.



    I could see it being a profit center for PCGS if the submitter would (for example) pay $35 rather than $32 for a regular submission if they wanted to add the post-grade TrueView option, and then would also pay the $10 TrueView imaging fee. As a submitter, I'd be willing to pay extra for this option. And as for throwing a kink in PCGS's system, I can't imagine it'd be too significant to set these coins on the shelf for 24 hours until the decision is made...perhaps the challenge would be in "resorting" those submissions to find the ones that need to have photos taken as opposed to being pushed down the line for encapsulation and shipping. But I'm sure there are logistics experts that could help them figure out to make that efficient.



  • goldengolden Posts: 9,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: GRANDAM
    Too much trouble,,,,, would slow down PCGS's process and increase costs overall.


    image
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It does happen, probably at shows where TrueView service is offered, like FUN.



    Here is a 1918-D Lincoln from CoinFacts, imaged through the slab.



    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/29213380
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug...
  • MonsterCoinzMonsterCoinz Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    Let's let them focus on figuring out how to combine multiple orders to one return shipment before any other distractions or programs




    This.
    www.MonsterCoinz.com | My Toned Showcase

    Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    Let's let them focus on figuring out how to combine multiple orders to one return shipment before any other distractions or programs




    There are probably lots of members who could appreciate this concept...and you can count me among them. image
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug...
  • People have requested ship-holds on submissions after they've been graded and encapsulated so that they can add TrueView. We've done this for a long time, but it doesn't happen all that often at all so I don't think it would be necessary to make it an advertised feature of the service.

    People have asked for in-slab photos, but again we don't do it that often enough to warrant advertising it.

    Incidentally the average amount of shots I take is 4-5 for World coins, 5-6 for US.

    Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When grades are posted, are coins actually in slabs already?
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PCGSPhoto

    People have requested ship-holds on submissions after they've been graded and encapsulated so that they can add TrueView. We've done this for a long time, but it doesn't happen all that often at all so I don't think it would be necessary to make it an advertised feature of the service.



    People have asked for in-slab photos, but again we don't do it that often enough to warrant advertising it.



    Incidentally the average amount of shots I take is 4-5 for World coins, 5-6 for US.
    How is the ship-hold requested Phil? And how is the communication done to request TrueView or approve shipping?



  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: davewesen

    When grades are posted, are coins actually in slabs already?




    Yes/no...it all depends on the data personnel who inputs the grades/images. I have had my coins delivered to my mailbox and not have the grades or images posted. And the opposite happens as well, grades and or images posted before they leave the facility.



    Just pay the extra 5 bucks per coin and have the TrueViews done; Standard to Secure Plus includes TrueViews....you won't regret the results! image
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug...
  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,503 ✭✭✭
    Just have a box to check on the submission form if it makes the lowest grade that you will accept than its gets true viewed. No back and forth communication needed. Though you could not put your total cost on your submission form.

    Not sure if this will hold up the processing of the coin and cause more headaches though for PCGS. Some coins would be true viewed before grading and some coins after grading.
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    It definitely impacts the grading/slabbing flow.

    The only change I've ever made after an order has been graded was to up the insurance when I got a major grade I wasn't expecting.

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