Had a really nice half dime come back as damaged. *Updated*

Jinx86

I really thought this might have a shot at 65+ only real mark is in the lower rev field.

PCGS called it bent/damaged.

How common is it for these to have left the mint with a slightly bowed center? If at all.

Now PCGS is calling it Questionable Color? Really?

AUandAG

Not common to leave the mint bent.....probably never.



This coin can be 'unbent" with care and using leather and wood. Sure is a pretty half dime for sure.



bob

Jinx86

Well I should say its more budged than bent. Rim is even all around, the center of the Obv is deeper than the rest, center of the rev is higher. The rim is high enough so that the high point of the rev doesnt rub when sat flat on a table.

CommemKing

That's sucks. You are probably doomed now. Nice looking coin. Only chance is to crack and resubmit.

DIMEMAN

Originally posted by: CommemKing
That's sucks. You are probably doomed now. Nice looking coin. Only chance is to crack and resubmit.

+ 1

Looks OK from the pic. If you try the leather and wood procedure....be careful!

grip

That's a gorgeous coin and I personally would not attempt any leather and wood compression.
Crack and resubmit. Good luck what ever you decide.

DollarAfterDollar

A few taps will get it where it needs to be. It's a half dime for Gods sake.

AUandAG

Originally posted by: DollarAfterDollar

A few taps will get it where it needs to be. It's a half dime for Gods sake.

Yes, and a bit of practice on a regular silver dime will be all you need. I have been successful with 3 cent pieces as well. I'm surprised that PCGS would not conserve it for you or will they?



bob

keyman64

Nice looking coin!

leothelyon

It's interesting that there are no apparent tool markings that would have been left when the coin was bent.
Someone needs to chime in who knows what's going on here.


Leo

thebeav

Originally posted by: DollarAfterDollar
A few taps will get it where it needs to be. It's a half dime for Gods sake.

Yup.....

MrEureka

Originally posted by: Jinx86
I really thought this might have a shot at 65+ only real mark is in the lower rev field.

PCGS called it bent/damaged.

When PCGS calls a coin "bent/damaged", does that mean that it's "bent AND damaged", or "bent AND/OR damaged"? If the latter, I suspect that your coin was not deemed to be bent, but just damaged.

Jinx86

Code on the holder is generic for damage, the lable describes as bent.

ms70

I can't image how that sort of bending occurred without residual damage. I must say though, Liberty's neck looks unusually long. Maybe die polishing thinned out the chin?

cameonut2011

What is the mark under the "M" in "DIME?"

Jinx86

Coin was bought raw. Mark under the M is the only real contact make on the coin.

Bochiman

Nice looking coin.



First thing in my mind when I saw truview, before reading any comments, was that it had a bend to it. It's noticeable in the picture and, obviously to PCGS, noticeable in hand as well.



If you know anyone who has skills with using the leather/wood idea, or a similar, I would talk to them about doing that. If it is pressed out a little, it may grade, and it would be a nice one to have. imho

TopographicOceans

At least you got a great picture

TommyType

From the pic, I would say it might be overly optimistic to just straighten it out....



The rims and denticles on both obverse and reverse may hold some evidence of whatever force put the bend in the coin. Can't say for sure without having it in hand, but the denticles seem flattened?

leothelyon

Originally posted by: Jinx86
Coin was bought raw. Mark under the M is the only real contact make on the coin.

But that mark is on the bubbled up side, not the sunk-in side of the obverse where the force would have come from, the underside, the obverse, to push out the other. My guess is to do an experiment by taking a rounded end of a wood broom handle or a short paint handle and with the use of a 7/16 socket that is the same diameter of the half dime...a 12 point socket.........well, I think you have the idea. Good thing the reverse is not toned like the obverse, otherwise the wood would likely mess up the toning. But try it on a cheap coin. And try to find the most level even surface possible to test the evenness of the coin. A small flat piece you can hold up to your eye with background lighting. I'm now thinking which side would be better to apply the force. A tap of the wooden handle end or the end of the socket. Perhaps it would be best to apply force from both sides, to cut off the rounded end of the wooden handle and place it and the coin and socket in a work bench vice and than slowly tighten up the vice.....................have I read into this too much?


Leo

291fifth

It is a damaged coin. It is not attractive in that state. Cut your losses on it now and don't look back. Trying to fool with it to "improve" it is likely to make it even worse.

rhedden

I wouldn't mess with the leather & wood technique on this one. I predict the toning will get rubbed off where the coin is in contact with the leather. Then you'll have a straightened coin with less attractive eye appeal. Just my thoughts.

ModCrewman

I realize they put bent on the holder, but my first thought on that reverse contact mark was that it was a staple scratch, which IMHO would keep it out of a clean holder even if straight. I of course could be wrong...and probably am.

Broadstruck

When glancing at details graded slabbed coins on many occasions there are more issues then the third party grading services can fit on the label and they just go with one. Looking at this photo although the obverse seems fine the reverse surfaces seem unhealthy.



When straightening a coin with wood and leather using a hammer might make things worse. You need to use a vise or at least a C clamp to apply direct pressure on the whole coin while checking repeatedly as you go.

johnny9434

Originally posted by: keyman64
Nice looking coin!

Jinx86

Thanks everyone for you input. Ive straighten many gold coins before, from dollars to double eagles. Just never had to "flatten" a piece of silver before.

I do plan to resubmit the coin. Ill post results when it is back in hand and what I did to the coin if anything.

MrHalfDime

"The rims and denticles on both obverse and reverse may hold some evidence of whatever force put the bend in the coin. Can't say for sure without having it in hand, but the denticles seem flattened?"

The 'flattened' or mushy dentils seen on this coin are characteristic of the worn dies used during this period, and not the result of any presumed damage specific to this coin. During 1857 the dies were 'retouched', strengthening some of the details, but this was merely a feeble effort to buy time until new hubs and working dies could be produced. The 'retouched' die coins are characterized by a smooth, gentle curve to the bottom of the rock base, and for the Philadelphia issues comprise just one die marriage (V1). This coin has a rather ragged shape to the base of the rock, as seen on most 1857 half dimes.

I must agree with those who caution against 'flattening' the coin with leather and wood. As Rhedden states, it is likely that the attractive toning on this coin will be disturbed during such a harsh attempt at conservation. The coin is best left as is. The dig on the reverse beneath the denomination is likely the reason why the coin is bent, and the dig will remain even after the wood and leather treatment. Half dimes are very thin, and many extant examples are similarly bent to one degree or another.

As 291fifth states: "It is a damaged coin. It is not attractive in that state. Cut your losses on it now and don't look back. Trying to fool with it to "improve" it is likely to make it even worse."

roadrunner

The reverse hit, if the cause of it being bent, should have bowed out the obverse, not the other way around. That rev mark doesn't seem extreme enough to have forced the coin to bend.



I'd submit this at least once to each TPG before making a decision about trying to straighten it. There's a fairly large amount of money at stake so take it slow. I'd probably try 2X with NGC as they are much more lenient on this type of toning. The obverse seems to have high point oxidation which shows with darker colors (ie blueish) on Liberty's arms, legs, drapery, etc. Those surfaces look "hard" rather than gleaming with frost. The luster may be a bit weak on those areas. Unless the bend is really obvious I'd sort of expect a 64 or better grade at some point during re-submissions.

topstuf

Best use some sort of vise or press if you try to flatten.

A hammer is hard to adjust.



It's also slower for periodic progress exam.

BillJones

Originally posted by: AUandAG
Not common to leave the mint bent.....probably never.

This coin can be 'unbent" with care and using leather and wood. Sure is a pretty half dime for sure.

bob

Many years ago I read that some Type II gold dollars were struck bent. The article gave advice on how to straighten them. I've never sent a mint caused bent Type II gold dollar, but given the trouble the Charlotte Mint had with striking decent ones, I suppose it's possible.

Walkerfan

It's a pity, as it has nice eye appeal.



I would be afraid to try to straighten it and, even if it works, there may be more damage than just the bend.



There are also the additional grading fees to resubmit.



I would look for another example.

Jinx86

None too happy about this one.

TPRC

So, did it come back questionable color the second time, and not bent/damaged? If so, I've seen this happen before. Once PCGS decides a coin has been played with, or altered, your coin is "toast." They may see several problems and simply pick one. On a slightly positive note, I would prefer a questionable color designation to a bent/damaged designation....maybe not by a lot, but that would be my preference. When I first saw the photo, my first thought was "QT." FWIW, from the photo, it doesn't look bent. Of course, I or most anyone would need to see this coin in hand to make a reasonable determination or to reach a reasonable opinion on it.

I've heard that one can "unbend" a coin to get a no problem grade. I can't say that I agree with that since you would have to stress the metal beyond its elastic range and deform it, or re-deform it, plastically. I don't think the bend can simply be undone, at least not on a molecular level. So, it is an alteration of the coin, maybe for the better, maybe not, but an alteration nonetheless.

Good luck with that.

silverpop

remember coins with color will be looked at as questionable by many grading companies as for being bent not much can be done about that issue

Wabbit2313

Keep sending it in. There are a whole bunch more excuses that can still be used.



82 Filed Rims Rim(s) and/or edge is filed. (more)

84 Holed and/or Plugged Any filled or non-filled hole. (more)

91 Questionable Color Any artificial re-toning & dipped copper. (more)

92 Cleaning Harsh cleaning or polishing. (more)

93 Planchet Flaw Generally large & prominent flaw(s). (more)

94 Altered Surfaces Any applied substance (wax, putty, lacquer). (more)

95 Scratch(s) Large & prominent scratch(s). (more)

97 Environmental Damage Corrosion, excessive toning, verdigris. (more)

98 Damage Any metal movement. (more)



No PCGS Holder



No grade coins returned to the submitter without encapsulation.





83 Peeling Lamination Potential for sealing damage. (more)

86 Authenticity Unverifiable Coin's status inconclusive. (more)

90 Counterfeit Fake coin or altered mintmark, date, variety. (more)

96 No Service PCGS does not currently grade this item. (more)

99 PVC Residue Oily polyvinylchloride substance. (more)

keets

Wabbit beat me to it........................



if I understand the OP w/edit, the coin was submitted and came back 98-bent/damaged and now after a re-submission it came back 91-questionable color. if I was you Id try for the trifecta by submitting it again and hoping for 95-scratch.



enough sarcasm for me, though, maybe it's time to realize that it's a nice coin but has problems. stop throwing good money after bad and hoping it gets graded. in reality, could you keep it in your collection KNOWING it has these problems assessed by PCGS??



worse yet, can you in good conscience sell the coin and acknowledge to a buyer that there are problems?? that will be a sure test of your ethics, my friend.

Baley

What the numismatic world needs is an expert "net grading" company to assign a fair,

reasonable assessment and evaluation for 'genuine' coins with flaws.



ANACS used to do it, deducting, for example 5 points for a very light cleaning, and 25 points for a harsh cleaning.



Or 5 points for a small scratch in the field of the reverse, and 40 points for a heavy scratch across the cheek on the obverse.



These days, something like "AU details, damage" tells me almost nothing about what the coin is actually worth.



(and despite the kind of very very helpful replies that simply say "pass" on such pieces (thanks heaps for your wisdom )

these coins, though absolutely Worth Less, are far from "worthless"

MonsterCoinz

I suppose you could twist my arm and I'd take it ... Nice piece.

oih82w8

Something about the neck and head area drew my eye as well...it just looks too long...like maybe Chuck Norris gave her a light uppercut. Other than that, she has mighty pretty color.

roadrunner

Originally posted by: keets



....worse yet, can you in good conscience sell the coin and acknowledge to a buyer that there are problems?? that will be a sure test of your ethics, my friend.

That would suggest anyone getting an upgrade, or who played with a coin in any manner (dipping, conserving, toning on the window sill, blue ribbon or care, acetone, ammonia, etc.) should come clean to all potential buyers when it's time to sell the coin. Good conscience? What if the TPG just flat out got it wrong? One time I told a dealer after they bought two coins from me that they had both upgraded a couple years earlier. They nixed the deal immediately even though they were nice coins and both CAC'd in the higher holders. I've put a number of silver coins into ammonia solution. Never once thought I had to inform buyers of said fact.



When I cracked out a very high end PCGS MS64 $10 Lib and got BB's from PCGS and NGC, was I ethically required to let potential buyers know that when it came back MS66 on the 3rd attempt? Fwiw, the coin was consigned raw to an auction house and it was they who resubmitted for the MS66 w/o my knowledge. But, I'm glad they did. I had made it clear to all potential buyers of that coin (ie dealers) when it was raw that it had BB'd twice...and I offered the coin raw for MS63+ money....with no takers.



But, it would sure be a nicer market if every seller had to come 100% clean with whatever they knew on the coin they were selling. That would probably shutter 75% of the dealers. We can dream can't we?

Wabbit2313

Roadrunner, you sure have bad luck with lost out upgrades. Do you have any others? Let me send them in for you and let's break the bad luck streak!

keets

what I meant to say was "can you in good conscience sell the coin and not acknowledge to a buyer that there are problems"??

Pokermandude

Questionable Color was my first thought after seeing the reverse. It has the look of an old cleaning/retoning.

Baley

Unc. details, bent, cleaned, scratched, questionable toning, net MS62

lkeigwin

A fitting end to this twisty story would be, after having sold it, to discover it in a dealer's case in a problem-free holder.

Lance.

Wabbit2313

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

A fitting end to this twisty story would be, after having sold it, to discover it in a dealer's case in a problem-free holder.

Lance.

Barndog

maybe you just have to keep submitting it

ricko

This may be the end to this story... However, my guess is that it will continue... either resubmitted by the OP or sold and submitted by another... if history of such things here on the forum is any guide, it will show up in a straight grade holder at some point. Cheers, RickO