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28 Coins Crossed Over and Results
Numis
Posts: 160 ✭
I recently submitted 28 coins (#21033323) for crossover and here is how it turned out. 24 crossed at the same grade, 1 bumped from a 64 to 65 ($12 gain) and 3 did not cross.
Four of the coins (2-Morgans and 2-Indian Heads) in this submission were previously submitted by my coin dealer and he and his grader believed they were undergraded and would at least get a +. I am not very familiar with either of these series so these were submitted on my trust of these gentlemen, which, when it comes to coins is immense. Unfortunately for me, they were 0-4.
The two Peace dollars were in old holders and had interesting color for Peace dollars and the 22d has amazing luster but they have 63 marks so no real surprise with them but took a shot.
I have spent a great deal of time studying Franklin's and looked at thousands of them and studied the series including the attributes of each year as well as looking at untold numbers of pictures. Four to five years ago I submitted 22 PCGS Franklins to NGC in the hopes of getting some stars or upgrades which would have helped with my registry set. NGC did not upgrade or star a single coin and DNC'd five PCGS Franklins.
Of the 22 Franklins in this submission, 17 had previously been in PCGS holders at the same grade four-five years ago. Three that did not cross this submission and had been in PCGS holders at the same grade were a 1952 MS66FBL, 1953 MS65FBL and a 1956 MS66FBL. One NGC that did not cross on my last attempt but did cross this time and that was the 1963d MS65FBL.
So now I'm almost back to where I started albeit minus a couple of grand. A few numbers from my experiment , NGC didn't cross 22.7% of PCGS coins and PCGS didn't cross 13.6% of NGC coins and 13.6% of former PCGS grades. Take from that what you will.
Go to run as I've got a lot of crossover submissions to get ready.
Four of the coins (2-Morgans and 2-Indian Heads) in this submission were previously submitted by my coin dealer and he and his grader believed they were undergraded and would at least get a +. I am not very familiar with either of these series so these were submitted on my trust of these gentlemen, which, when it comes to coins is immense. Unfortunately for me, they were 0-4.
The two Peace dollars were in old holders and had interesting color for Peace dollars and the 22d has amazing luster but they have 63 marks so no real surprise with them but took a shot.
I have spent a great deal of time studying Franklin's and looked at thousands of them and studied the series including the attributes of each year as well as looking at untold numbers of pictures. Four to five years ago I submitted 22 PCGS Franklins to NGC in the hopes of getting some stars or upgrades which would have helped with my registry set. NGC did not upgrade or star a single coin and DNC'd five PCGS Franklins.
Of the 22 Franklins in this submission, 17 had previously been in PCGS holders at the same grade four-five years ago. Three that did not cross this submission and had been in PCGS holders at the same grade were a 1952 MS66FBL, 1953 MS65FBL and a 1956 MS66FBL. One NGC that did not cross on my last attempt but did cross this time and that was the 1963d MS65FBL.
So now I'm almost back to where I started albeit minus a couple of grand. A few numbers from my experiment , NGC didn't cross 22.7% of PCGS coins and PCGS didn't cross 13.6% of NGC coins and 13.6% of former PCGS grades. Take from that what you will.
Go to run as I've got a lot of crossover submissions to get ready.
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You are crossing nearly 5/6 NGC coins, but said you are out a couple thousand dollars (or at break even, that was confusing to me). I assume you are crossing inexpensive coins where the crosses don't add much value? Every cross I attempt is only after an assessment of the upside vs. the downside (including the fees). Many don't make sense to attempt.
Wondercoin.
Account Home > Order Details
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. Description Grade Country
1 1 80516063 7362 1923-S $1 MS63 USA
2 1 80516064 7358 1922-D $1 MS63 USA
3 1 80516065 7119 1880-S $1, PL MS64PL USA
4 1 80516066 7131 1881-S $1, PL MS66PL USA
5 1 80516067 2339 1884 1C, BN PR64BN USA
6 1 80516068 2351 1888 1C, BN PR64BN USA
7 1 80516069 86651 1948 50C, FL MS65FL USA
8 1 80516070 86653 1949 50C, FL MS65FL USA
9 1 80516071 86656 1950 50C, FL MS66FL USA
10 1 80516072 86657 1950-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA
11 1 80516073 86658 1951 50C, FL MS65FL USA
12 1 80516074 6661 1952 50C DNC USA
13 1 80516075 6663 1952-S 50C MS66 USA
14 1 80516076 6664 1953 50C DNC USA
15 1 80516077 6664 1953 50C MS66 USA
16 1 80516078 6664 1953 50C MS64 USA
17 1 80516079 6666 1953-S 50C MS66 USA
18 1 80516080 86667 1954 50C, FL MS65FL USA
19 1 80516081 86668 1954-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA
20 1 80516082 86670 1955 50C, FL MS65FL USA
21 1 80516083 6671 1956 50C DNC USA
22 1 80516084 86674 1958 50C, FL MS66FL USA
23 1 80516085 86677 1959-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA
24 1 80516086 86679 1960-D 50C, FL MS64FL USA
25 1 80516087 86680 1961 50C, FL MS64FL USA
26 1 80516088 86681 1961-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA
27 1 80516089 6684 1963 50C MS65 USA
28 1 80516090 86685 1963-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA
If I can cross 1/6 NGC coins I submit, I can make big money overall (I probably end up crossing 1/8 and do OK).
You are crossing nearly 5/6 NGC coins, but said you are out a couple thousand dollars (or at break even, that was confusing to me). I assume you are crossing inexpensive coins where the crosses don't add much value? Every cross I attempt is only after an assessment of the upside vs. the downside (including the fees). Many don't make sense to attempt.
I opened the thread just to see what percentage crossed.
I'd guess the lower the value the better chance they have of crossng but these results are very impressive of some of these coins are hardly inexpensive or inexpensive compared to the next lower grade.
Cross rates are heavily affected by series and grade. They are even affected by TPG as I have found ANACS coins that I liked much easier to cross. Crossing 20th century coins in grades of 63-65 (esp. post 1940) is far easier than crossing say 19th century coins in grades of MS65-MS67. Since I've pretty much only done the latter, my cross rate is more in line with Wondercoin's 1/8....actually worse than that. Some coins that I would suspect are the most difficult of all to cross would be NGC MS67 or higher Lincolns, particularly pre-1959.
To clarify my reason for crossing four years ago and again today here goes.
I definitely prefer PCGS graded coins and so coins 1-6 (2-Peace dollars, 2-Morgan's and 2-Indian Heads) were nice coins that were in NGC holders when I bought them and I wanted to get them in PCGS holders so I'm pleased with the results in crossing 6 out of 6.
Regarding the Franklins which is the series I consider myself most proficient here is my post from four years ago:
"I went through hundreds of my Franklin's to review and see if there were any potential upgrades. Picked out the 30 that either had a shot at a +, star or full point upgrade. Spent hours comparing images on Heritage and shared them with my dealer who agreed with my selections for the most part (cut it to 22). The majority of these have nice color and some are very nice rainbows. (50, 51, 54 especially) The 49s is MS66fbl and is typical spotty for this issue but the luster is still booming and mark free and my dealer actually thought it had a shot at +. All were in PCGS holders (3 rattlers) and below are the grades from NGC. Clearly I screwed up and should have kept them in their PCGS holders. 5(49s-ms66fbl, 57-ms66fbl, 58d-ms66fbl, 60-ms65 rattler, 52-ms65 rattler) didn't cross and the only upgrade was 1948 had fbl added. Expensive lesson.
LineItem Year Mint Mark Variety/Pedigree Denom. Grade Comments Comments
001 1948 50C MS 65 FBL
002 1949 50C MS 65 FBL
003 1949 S 50C SPOTTY
004 1950 50C MS 66 FBL
005 1950 D 50C MS 65 FBL
006 1951 50C MS 65 FBL
007 1952 50C SPLOTCHY
008 1952 S 50C MS 66
009 1953 50C MS 66
010 1953 50C MS 64
011 1953 S 50C MS 66
012 1953 50C MS 65 FBL
013 1954 50C MS 65 FBL
014 1954 D 50C MS 65 FBL
015 1955 50C MS 65 FBL
016 1956 50C MS 66 FBL
017 1957 50C NOT FBL
018 1958 D 50C MARKS
019 1959 D 50C MS 65 FBL
020 1961 50C MS 64 FBL
021 1961 D 50C MS 65 FBL
022 1960 50C THICK TONING"
So the mistake I made was assuming the Franklin's would get bumps four years ago from NGC. And yes, I think there are a few including MS66FBL's that are worthy of at least a + or a full point upgrade. There are some tough years to find nice color in the Frankie's i.e. 50, 51, 54 and I searched long and hard to find the ones I have with nice luster, rainbows and color. I will post some pictures when I get them back.
Lesson learned is that I need to have the guts to crack them out if I think they are deserving of a bump?
Would love to see some...particularly of the IHCs
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I do not collect Franklins but I believe they NGC is especially tough on this series.
"Spotty", really Mr. NGC Grader? If the grader was familiar with the series they would know that is commonplace and I can show many examples on Heritage in high grades. Below are links to one MS67FBL and one MS66FBL for instance and that was just in the first few coins I searched on Heritage.
http://coins.ha.com/itm/franklin-half-dollars/half-dollars/1949-s-50c-ms67-full-bell-lines-ngc/a/1231-5819.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
http://coins.ha.com/itm/franklin-half-dollars/half-dollars/1949-s-50c-ms66-full-bell-lines-pcgs-cac-pcgs-population-185-6-ngc-census-30-4-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/1232-7461.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
I know my pics are horrible but here is the PCGS 1949s MS66FBL that did not cross at NGC. There were two other Franklin's that this grader listed as "Splotchy" or "Thick Toning" that did not cross also.
It infuriates me to pay for a service and the grader is truly clueless about the series and the coins I submitted.
[IMG][IMG]http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p696/mmarc77/IMG_1842_zpshhu39q3r.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_1842_zpshhu39q3r.jpg" />">
This is the first time I'm aware of the potential that NGC grades Franklins tougher than PCGS (other options would the same or looser). I don't consider the bell lines as part of that discussion as the TPG's do have variations on "full strike" criteria from Roosies to Franklins. NGC may in fact be pickier on bell lines...I don't know. If NGC doesn't like spotty toning, you can bet your bottom dollar that PCGS likes it even less. Which FBL registry has the most outstanding sets.....NGC or PCGS?
1922d Peace MS63-Pictures at bottom of page 1
1923s Peace MS63-Pictures at bottom of page 1
1880s Morgan MS64PL
1881s Morgan MS66PL
1884 Indian Head PF64 BN
1888 Indian Head PF64 BN
1) I buy without regard to holders including raw
2) I buy only colorful franklins
3) if I sell I sell I get them in pcgs holders first
4) I never cross ngc to pcgs, I always crack first
5) I never buy an ngc unless I'm willing to immediately crack it
6) ngc is tough on full bell lines
7) pcgs is more likely to reward thick mature toning than ngc, and many of these coins upgrade going over to pcgs
8). Expect amazing bright and colorful coins to downgrade moving over from ngc, but less so today than five years ago
9) if you have an unusually colorful franklin, and you're marketing the color not the grade it's more liquid in pcgs
Numis after being very active with buying, grading crossing franklins over the past nine years. I have a few rules I follow:
1) I buy without regard to holders including raw
2) I buy only colorful franklins
3) if I sell I sell I get them in pcgs holders first
4) I never cross ngc to pcgs, I always crack first
5) I never buy an ngc unless I'm willing to immediately crack it
6) ngc is tough on full bell lines
7) pcgs is more likely to reward thick mature toning than ngc, and many of these coins upgrade going over to pcgs
8). Expect amazing bright and colorful coins to downgrade moving over to ngc, but less so today than five years ago
9) if you have an unusually colorful franklin, and you're marketing the color not the grade it's more liquid in pcgs
That is great advice and I really appreciate it!