It is time to revise our assumption that all Chinese counterfeits are magnetic?

BillJones

Recently a member of my local club gave me a group of counterfeit coins to photograph, examine and analyze. All of these pieces have the look of the toned "silver" counterfeit coins that have been popping up all over the Internet and at places like flea markets. We have been told that these coins are made of steel and therefore magnetic. Yet, none of these are attracted to a magnet.

Have any of you done the magnet test on the counterfeits that you have? What have been your results? Here are photos of the counterfeits.

"1846 Dollar"



"1874-CC Trade Dollar"



"1879-S Dollar"



"1908 Silver Eagle"

Weiss

My fears have always been overconfidence and confirmation bias: Anyone (or at least most of us here) can tell that those are fakes. Bad, bad fakes.

And if they're not magnetic, chances are they don't weigh anywhere near where they're supposed to. Or if they do, they don't have the correct diameter and thickness.

It's not the bad, incorrect weight, incorrect size, non-magnetic fakes that scare me.

It's the fear that really good, correct weight, correct size, non-magnetic fakes are already in collections of knowledgeable numismatists or in the inventory of respected dealers.

DCARR has already shown that well made overstrikes can use legit host coins to produce high quality fantasy issues. Pieces that aren't just proper weight and diameter. They're metallurgically- and even age-correct. Metal mined from the same location, alloyed and annealed at the same US facilities as actual legit US rarities.

AUandAG

Silver over copper is non magnetic and I see that all the time from China.



bob

DaveWcoins

Originally posted by: AUandAG

Silver over copper is non magnetic and I see that all the time from China.



bob

+1



Assuming all Chinese counterfeits are magnetic is a dangerous assumption.



Most I have seen are not.

CaptHenway

Back when I was working in the coin shop, being magnetic was never a reliable test of the Chinese counterfeits. Some were, most weren't.

TD

ShadyDave

Originally posted by: AUandAG
Silver over copper is non magnetic and I see that all the time from China.

bob

^This.

While these two fatman dollars are different years, they are definitely getting better with the details. The weights are only off slightly and the diamater/thickness are close too and non magnetic to boot.






The NGC isa real FatMan Dollar and the CBCA coin is a fake from China.

MrHalfDime

"Assuming all Chinese counterfeits are magnetic is a dangerous assumption.

Most I have seen are not."

I agree. In fact, I do not recall ever seeing a 'magnetic' Chinese counterfeit, although there may well be some. And I would not consider a 'magnetic' test to be a reliable or definitive test. The most reliable test, beyond visual inspection and comparison with die markers of known, genuine coins is to conduct a specific gravity test. It is relatively simple to perform, and when added to the visual, diameter, and mass data, it provides nearly indisputable proof of authenticity.

ricko

Being non-magnetic is merely one item on a list to check for... and certainly one that is easily overcome. Copper, lead, silver, aluminum- and others - all non magnetic ... and can be used either alone or mixed in counterfeits....Cheers, RickO

IrishMikey

I have seen a wide variety of Chinese counterfeits. The lowest quality fakes are often the magnetic pieces, and these usually contain no silver at all. Then there are the copper-nickel and silver-plated bronze pieces (if you want to educate yourself, I strongly recommend cutting into a few of these, after you have determined them to be definite fakes), which are usually underweight. For example, silver dollar fakes that should weigh 26.75 grams usually weigh between 24 and 25 grams.

Then there are the better fakes, which are the ones the counterfeiters charge the most for. These have tested out at 90% silver, with correct weights, diameters, etc. The better Trade $ fakes fall into this category. I have not heard of anyone performing metallurgical testing on any of these to determine the source of the silver, but I assume that they will NOT be from a U.S. mine. I do not think that the Chinese counterfeiters have the level of sophistication to use genuine coins from the correct time period to make their blanks. If source testing becomes readily available, this might be the next step for them.

shorecoll

I went to one of the ANA discussions on the high quality counterfeits and they showed some almost perfect (or actually perfect) blank planchets from various periods. At that meeting it was stated that the services would no longer slab blank planchet errors, unless they have provenance, as the quality of the fakes was just too high[I do not know if this is true]. We sold China presses and die steel and they can buy our coins for restrikes, etc. The only defense against the high-end stuff is knowing correct die varieties, die states, etc. The other defense is to stick to collecting stuff that isn't worth the high quality effort to fake.

Insider2

Originally posted by: ShadyDave



While these two fatman dollars are different years, they are definitely getting better with the details. The weights are only off slightly and the diamater/thickness are close too and non magnetic to boot.[IMG]http://i1361.





Are you saying that the coins in these slabs are counterfeits?

ebaybuyer

this should be the only red flag one needs to immediately recognize this fake, its been around for over 10 years

LanceNewmanOCC

.

the majority of the ones ive held were of non-ferrous pot metal.



makes sense as it is the cheapest. may even be scraps from all the junk metal sent overseas.



ironic?

.

jcping

Originally posted by: IrishMikey
I do not think that the Chinese counterfeiters have the level of sophistication to use genuine coins from the correct time period to make their blanks. If source testing becomes readily available, this might be the next step for them.

You will be surprised how they (the experts) made million US dollars fake coins. They created new dies and only made one to two pieces and then destroyed the dies. When these became 3rd known and 4th known specimen, how do you know these are fake or new discovery.

If we are talking about less than $100 fake, it is a complete story.

It is too easy to lump all bad counterfeits into Chinese counterfeit. Don't forget there are unbelieve ones and possibly you did not see one yet.

BillJones

Originally posted by: ebaybuyer
this should be the only red flag one needs to immediately recognize this fake, its been around for over 10 years

True in a sense, but I've found markers like this of limited value. You can't memorize every mark that was on the coin that was used to make the copy dies for a counterfeit. Most people don't have perfect photographic memories, and the crooks keep making more and more counterfeits all the time. You can't keep up with them all. Pointing out that counterfeit X has this mark that is repeated on subsequent copies is okay, but who can remember all of that?

The better defense is to know what the real thing looks like and to spot the pieces that look odd. That includes knowing the design and knowing what the surface of real coins look like.

One of the huge dangers we face now is the slabbing of "details" grade coins. When the TPGs certify that pieces which have been whizzed, polished or otherwise cleaned, the give the crooks the opportunity to remove the telltale marks that give a counterfeit away. That helped get an 1803 counterfeit half cent into a holder. Some of stuff that gave it away were obscured, while some other things that were unique to the die variety got through because the graders were not familial with half cent die varieties.

This situation is getting series. It threatens our entire hobby, especially when the crooks can get counterfeit coins into genuine slabs. People here mention weighing pieces and specific gravity tests. How the heck do you weigh something within the tolerances necessary when it is in a slab? I don't know. Maybe someone here knows how to do that.

coindeuce

I'll post pics of my non magnetic, circulated in appearance 1878-CC Trade Dollar that rings as silver and is within Mint tolerances for weight. It came from Singapore.

hchcoin

Originally posted by: Weiss
My fears have always been overconfidence and confirmation bias: Anyone (or at least most of us here) can tell that those are fakes. Bad, bad fakes.

And if they're not magnetic, chances are they don't weigh anywhere near where they're supposed to. Or if they do, they don't have the correct diameter and thickness.

It's not the bad, incorrect weight, incorrect size, non-magnetic fakes that scare me.

It's the fear that really good, correct weight, correct size, non-magnetic fakes are already in collections of knowledgeable numismatists or in the inventory of respected dealers.

DCARR has already shown that well made overstrikes can use legit host coins to produce high quality fantasy issues. Pieces that aren't just proper weight and diameter. They're metallurgically- and even age-correct. Metal mined from the same location, alloyed and annealed at the same US facilities as actual legit US rarities.

+1

COINS MAKE CENTS

Never seen an 1908 eagle counterfit before

TwoSides2aCoin

Weights and measures can get close, and what the eyes and magnets do not pick up, we have the generosity of those who make some points here. We owe it to the hobby to eradicate these. They're basically the bottom of the scum bucket, even as some people find THEM to be collectible for their own reasons.

~rant over~

Insider2

Originally posted by: ShadyDave





While these two fatman dollars are different years, they are definitely getting better with the details. The weights are only off slightly and the diamater/thickness are close too and non magnetic to boot.[IMG]





Please help. Are you saying these "fatman" Dollars in TPGS slabs are counterfeit?

ShadyDave

Originally posted by: Insider2

Originally posted by: ShadyDave

While these two fatman dollars are different years, they are definitely getting better with the details. The weights are only off slightly and the diamater/thickness are close too and non magnetic to boot.[IMG]http://i1361.


Are you saying that the coins in these slabs are counterfeits?

Sorry for not clarifying, the NGC coin is legit. All CBCA slabs and coins are fake.