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Pictures of the new 2015 counterfeit Proof Silver Eagle
BillJones
Posts: 34,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
This fake has been reported in the numismatic press, but many of the photos I have seen have been disappointing. Last Tuesday night I gave a presentation of counterfeits to my local club, and one of the members brought in an example of this fake. He was one of the people who was involved with the discovery of it at the Lakeland, Florida coin show and other Florida locations. Here are my photos
Two spots to note quickly: The lines around the stars in the blue section of the flag on the obverse are missing. On the reverse, there is no feather detail in the wings.
These things are sold in the ORIGINAL PACKAGE with the Certificate of Authenticity. These packaging materials can be obtained from genuine silver eagles that are cracked out of the capsule and sent to the TPGs for grading. The packaging is sold on the Internet.
So don't buy these coins without really looking at them. Just buying a heavy box is no indication that the coin is real. BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.
Two spots to note quickly: The lines around the stars in the blue section of the flag on the obverse are missing. On the reverse, there is no feather detail in the wings.
These things are sold in the ORIGINAL PACKAGE with the Certificate of Authenticity. These packaging materials can be obtained from genuine silver eagles that are cracked out of the capsule and sent to the TPGs for grading. The packaging is sold on the Internet.
So don't buy these coins without really looking at them. Just buying a heavy box is no indication that the coin is real. BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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here is an authentic one
The "mild spots" are coming "for free" I'm sure. This thing is made of Chinese junk metal and the facade is breaking down as we speak.
Check out the lack of detail on the feet and sandals.
This is the first thing that screamed out to me as well. Not even close.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Love the milk spots too!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Check out that FACE! It's a disaster and give away ascwell.
Love the milk spots too!
At least they got that part right
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yeah, they got those right.
The details are awful though. Liberty's head is the biggest giveaway.
The L on the third ray, way off, as well as the other problems reported in this thread.
Thanks Bill J., and nice of you to post on coin community, your knowledge is appreciated there.
I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.
Exactly,
I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.
You guys bring up a good point
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Exactly,
I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.
This is a very important point. A lot of dealers buy these coins in bulk. You get a bunch of blue boxes, and since the state of preservation is almost never an issue with this coins, dealers don't look at them closely and sometimes don't look at them at all. In that case it would be easy to slip a some of these counterfeits into the lot.
If there ever is an "unsealed mint box" market for these, the people who might wish to create such foolishness should think twice. You could be trading a box of this junk. The old saying, "Look before you leap," certainly applies here.
This is another way buying old worn silver dollars in bulk withour looking at them can be risky. The Chinese now tone and "circulate" their products most of the time, and it would be easy to slip a few of these fakes in with some genuine pieces.
Just an awful job!
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Maaaaaan, I'm sick a this crap. It seem as though a thousand new crooks every couple a months or so.
Nope, just the same old chinese sweatshops pumping these out and the same crook sellers on eBay, alibaba and other black market sites. When the perps don't get punished, all they have to do is change their eBay username or address and they're back in business!
Also look at the heel position over the date. This may be a good quick PUP when you have a bulk load to inspect.
I think if you're looking at these en masse in hand, the fakes will stick out like Ernest Borgnine in drag at a Miss America contest.
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Check out the lack of detail on the feet and sandals.
thats one of the first things that i looked at as well. wow
Anyone duped by this shouldn't be in the business.
Everyone thinks its ok to sell fakes as long as it is stated so.
what is done after the sale is the problem!
That's what the news release said. If you just cracked the box open to make sure there was a coin inside, you would see a proof SE. Until these showed up, I'll bet none of the dealers ever took more than a glance inside.
I don't know about other dealers, but if I was buying proof Silver Eagles, I would look at EVERY coin to make sure there are no "milk spots", and to make sure the coin is actually a proof with the correct date.
Unfortunately some dealers, even the people who are on the national show circuit, don't seem to be that good at spotting counterfeits. Things can get rushed at shows, and after a long day you and your eyes can get tired.
The counterfeit that started this thread got past a brick and mortar dealer and at least one dealer at a show. Given the number of counterfeit these days, it's caveat emptor. Don't assume anything from a blue mint issued box.
...BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.
Attracted to a magnet?
NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows
These are copper core with silver on the outside.
NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows
Scaling these in the cap, with a genuine coin on hand for reference should be a giveaway also. No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. The forgers might think they're clever by using original Mint caps, but the coin is what matters.
The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.
The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3
The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail, and usually such a forgery will be slightly under size on diameter as well. Hard to discern small variation in diameter while in a capsule, but that goes to the weight check anyway.
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These are copper core with silver on the outside.
NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows
Scaling these in the cap, with a genuine coin on hand for reference should be a giveaway also. No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. The forgers might think they're clever by using original Mint caps, but the coin is what matters.
The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.
The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3
The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail, and usually such a forgery will be slightly under size on diameter as well. Hard to discern small variation in diameter while in a capsule, but that goes to the weight check anyway.
Other counterfeits are sometimes thicker to overcome being a lighter metal - would be easier to hide in a capsule.
These are copper core with silver on the outside.
NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows
Thanks for the correction.
... No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. ...
The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.
The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3
A silver plated copper fake would need to be about 18% thicker to equalize weight, to make up for the 18% higher density of silver relative to copper.
silver = 10.5 * 1
copper = 8.9 * (1+x) (assuming a weight close to zero for silver plating)
x = .18 = 10.5/8.9 - 1
The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail,
Actually they are not. Fakes struck with transfer dies LOOK LIKE THE ORIGINAL.
...BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.
Attracted to a magnet?
You know what I just tried it, and the thing is not magnetic. One of the guys in my local club gave me a bunch of counterfeits to study and photograph. A few of them were Chinese, and only one was slightly magnetic. I'm starting to re-think this assumption that these things contain steel.