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Pictures of the new 2015 counterfeit Proof Silver Eagle

BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
This fake has been reported in the numismatic press, but many of the photos I have seen have been disappointing. Last Tuesday night I gave a presentation of counterfeits to my local club, and one of the members brought in an example of this fake. He was one of the people who was involved with the discovery of it at the Lakeland, Florida coin show and other Florida locations. Here are my photos

imageimage

Two spots to note quickly: The lines around the stars in the blue section of the flag on the obverse are missing. On the reverse, there is no feather detail in the wings.

These things are sold in the ORIGINAL PACKAGE with the Certificate of Authenticity. These packaging materials can be obtained from genuine silver eagles that are cracked out of the capsule and sent to the TPGs for grading. The packaging is sold on the Internet.

So don't buy these coins without really looking at them. Just buying a heavy box is no indication that the coin is real. BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.

image
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Comments

  • CCDollarCCDollar Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting...thanks for the info...

    CC
    Nickel Triumph...My Led Zepps
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wow, milk spots and everything

    here is an authentic one
    image
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The lines in the skirt should be enough for a red flag.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fairly obvious fake for those who know ASE's....I have no doubt many casual buyers would be fooled...Cheers, RickO
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maaaaaan, I'm sick a this crap. It seem as though a thousand new crooks every couple a months or so. image
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wow, milk spots and everything


    The "mild spots" are coming "for free" I'm sure. This thing is made of Chinese junk metal and the facade is breaking down as we speak.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Hydrant

    Check out the lack of detail on the feet and sandals.




    This is the first thing that screamed out to me as well. Not even close.



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • TitusFlaviusTitusFlavius Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    It's a mule! No tail on the "U".
    "Render therfore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matthew 22: 21
  • nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check out that FACE! It's a disaster and give away ascwell.

    Love the milk spots too!

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    thanks
    LCoopie = Les
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: nwcoast

    Check out that FACE! It's a disaster and give away ascwell.



    Love the milk spots too!




    At least they got that part right



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For easy back and forth comparison.

    image

  • KyleKyle Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wow, milk spots and everything


    Yeah, they got those right.



    The details are awful though. Liberty's head is the biggest giveaway.
    Successful BST Transactions With: tonedase, streg2, airplanenut, coindeuce, vibr0nic, natetrook, Shrub68, golden, Lakesammman, drddm, Ilikecolor, CoinJunkie, wondercoin, lablover
  • PRECIOUSMENTALPRECIOUSMENTAL Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭
    I tried posting, received an 113 error, so, again...

    The L on the third ray, way off, as well as the other problems reported in this thread.

    Thanks Bill J., and nice of you to post on coin community, your knowledge is appreciated there.
  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
    She's got a smarmy grin on her face in the fake.
  • PRECIOUSMENTALPRECIOUSMENTAL Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow, look at the stars in the flag, and the cross marks on the fake.
  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭
    It might be an obvious fake if you take the time to really look at it, but if you are buying 20 or 30 of them at once it would be easy to slip a couple in.
    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Exactly,

    I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jdimmick

    Exactly,



    I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.




    You guys bring up a good point



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,289 ✭✭✭
    Also look at the heel position over the date. This may be a good quick PUP when you have a bulk load to inspect.

    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jdimmick
    Exactly,

    I can tell easily as well, but let a dealer sitting at a show (where its hectic) or in a shop with a guy walking in with say 30-40 or way more of these and see what happens if they are not careful. I can tell you countless times where I have had that happen to me, and I just open check for coa and make sure coin is there and keep moving. Wasn't until I read about these fakes, that I started looking closer.



    This is a very important point. A lot of dealers buy these coins in bulk. You get a bunch of blue boxes, and since the state of preservation is almost never an issue with this coins, dealers don't look at them closely and sometimes don't look at them at all. In that case it would be easy to slip a some of these counterfeits into the lot.

    If there ever is an "unsealed mint box" market for these, the people who might wish to create such foolishness should think twice. You could be trading a box of this junk. The old saying, "Look before you leap," certainly applies here.

    This is another way buying old worn silver dollars in bulk withour looking at them can be risky. The Chinese now tone and "circulate" their products most of the time, and it would be easy to slip a few of these fakes in with some genuine pieces.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those awful lines amongst the stars are what tipped me off...as well as the other forum members observations.



    Just an awful job!
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: crazyhounddog
    Maaaaaan, I'm sick a this crap. It seem as though a thousand new crooks every couple a months or so. image



    Nope, just the same old chinese sweatshops pumping these out and the same crook sellers on eBay, alibaba and other black market sites. When the perps don't get punished, all they have to do is change their eBay username or address and they're back in business!

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,236 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: guitarwes

    Also look at the heel position over the date. This may be a good quick PUP when you have a bulk load to inspect.



    I think if you're looking at these en masse in hand, the fakes will stick out like Ernest Borgnine in drag at a Miss America contest.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's what the news release said. If you just cracked the box open to make sure there was a coin inside, you would see a proof SE. Until these showed up, I'll bet none of the dealers ever took more than a glance inside.
  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And as mentioned, the more casual buyers might be fooled. 'I will sell it to you under spot because if the milk spots on it' would be a great line to real someone in...



    K
    ANA LM
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That sucks!
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    On the authentic American Silver Eagle reverse, a feather from the eagle's breast overlaps the top part of the shield.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 29,070 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Hydrant
    Check out the lack of detail on the feet and sandals.


    thats one of the first things that i looked at as well. wow
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Blatantly obvious fake.



    Anyone duped by this shouldn't be in the business.
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thank ebay for the influx of fake coins.



    Everyone thinks its ok to sell fakes as long as it is stated so.



    what is done after the sale is the problem!
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Insider2
    That's what the news release said. If you just cracked the box open to make sure there was a coin inside, you would see a proof SE. Until these showed up, I'll bet none of the dealers ever took more than a glance inside.


    I don't know about other dealers, but if I was buying proof Silver Eagles, I would look at EVERY coin to make sure there are no "milk spots", and to make sure the coin is actually a proof with the correct date.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some dealers are not a bright or observant as you think they are. When Beth Deisher, the then editor of "Coin World," took a group of Chinese counterfeit coins around the bourse floor at the Winter FUN show some years ago, she got offers on the pieces to buy them. These included fake Morgan Dollars and even pieces like a counterfeit Lafayette Dollar.

    Unfortunately some dealers, even the people who are on the national show circuit, don't seem to be that good at spotting counterfeits. Things can get rushed at shows, and after a long day you and your eyes can get tired.

    The counterfeit that started this thread got past a brick and mortar dealer and at least one dealer at a show. Given the number of counterfeit these days, it's caveat emptor. Don't assume anything from a blue mint issued box.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If that thing fools dealers there's no hope. Some of the fakes out there are very, very good.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BillJones
    ...BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.

    Attracted to a magnet?
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    These are copper core with silver on the outside.

    NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PTVETTER

    These are copper core with silver on the outside.

    NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows




    Scaling these in the cap, with a genuine coin on hand for reference should be a giveaway also. No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. The forgers might think they're clever by using original Mint caps, but the coin is what matters.

    The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.

    The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3

    The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail, and usually such a forgery will be slightly under size on diameter as well. Hard to discern small variation in diameter while in a capsule, but that goes to the weight check anyway.



    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.american-legacy-coins.com

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: coindeuce
    Originally posted by: PTVETTER
    These are copper core with silver on the outside.
    NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows


    Scaling these in the cap, with a genuine coin on hand for reference should be a giveaway also. No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. The forgers might think they're clever by using original Mint caps, but the coin is what matters.
    The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.
    The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3
    The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail, and usually such a forgery will be slightly under size on diameter as well. Hard to discern small variation in diameter while in a capsule, but that goes to the weight check anyway.



    Other counterfeits are sometimes thicker to overcome being a lighter metal - would be easier to hide in a capsule.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PTVETTER
    These are copper core with silver on the outside.
    NOT steel, and in hand they are not as bad as the photo shows

    Thanks for the correction.

    Originally posted by: coindeuce
    ... No way a silver plated copper coin will be close in weight to a .999 silver proof, unless there is a significantly visible variation in dimensions between the two. ...
    The density of copper is 8.9 g/cm^3.
    The density of silver is 10.5 g/cm^3

    A silver plated copper fake would need to be about 18% thicker to equalize weight, to make up for the 18% higher density of silver relative to copper.
    silver = 10.5 * 1
    copper = 8.9 * (1+x) (assuming a weight close to zero for silver plating)
    x = .18 = 10.5/8.9 - 1
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: coindeuce



    The forgeries are probably made from a 1:1 transfer die, which explains the lack of detail,




    Actually they are not. Fakes struck with transfer dies LOOK LIKE THE ORIGINAL.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: yosclimber
    Originally posted by: BillJones
    ...BTW these things contain no silver. They are made of Chinese junk metal, e.g. steel.

    Attracted to a magnet?


    You know what I just tried it, and the thing is not magnetic. One of the guys in my local club gave me a bunch of counterfeits to study and photograph. A few of them were Chinese, and only one was slightly magnetic. I'm starting to re-think this assumption that these things contain steel.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

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