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AstroJoe
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Hello All!
What is your opinion on toned coins on Uncirculated or proof coins, specifically silver?
for me, I think toning detracts from the coin. So I look for untoned coins.
What is your opinion on toned coins on Uncirculated or proof coins, specifically silver?
for me, I think toning detracts from the coin. So I look for untoned coins.
Joe
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With that said, I am a fan of some original toning especially on pre-1880s silver. I find in many cases it can be very attractive.
Welcome Aboard!!
Toned coins range from black coins, ugly dark coins, warm gold toning coins and all the way to the other end of the spectrum beautifully rainbow color toned coins. It is very hard to say "I don't like toned coins," so is hard to say "I love toned coins
Simply collect what you like and enjoy the hobby.
Welcome to the forum.
Toned coins range from black coins, ugly dark coins, warm gold toning coins and all the way to the other end of the spectrum beautifully rainbow color toned coins. It is very hard to say "I don't like toned coins," so is hard to say "I love toned coins
Simply collect what you like and enjoy the hobby.
Well stated.
To me it depends on the coin.
Silver oxidizes over time and builds a natural skin. That skin can be chemically removed turning the coin back to as white as the day it was minted.
For me, natural coins are better. Sometimes the toning can turn into beautiful colors, sometimes it can just be dark.
It the toning is natural (i.e. arising from normal collector storage) and adds eye appeal, I like it.
However, to each his own.
I prefer toning on circulated coins. On Mint State or Proof coins, I like 'em both ways- toned and untoned.
Unattractive oxidation is called "tarnish".
It is up to you to decide what is acceptable in your collection.
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I also don't have a ton of knowledge on how airtight PCGS/NGC slabs are, but I wouldn't want an expensive and toned coin to continue toning in a holder and become unappealing or damaged. Has anyone encountered that with a coin they own?
These, along with some nice capped bust material , seated material recently returned from PCGS.
There are times to make concessions.
Toned coins are more prevalent now for a number of reasons:
1. Dips do strip metal off coin surfaces. This has been shown by electron microscopy (before and after images). See the book by Scott Travers. Nowadays, people are more aware of the consequences of overdipping---diminished luster and consequent grade diminution.
2. Decades ago, white silver coins were the rage. When I was a teenager, I saw dealers dipping coins to order, while the customers waited. That would not happen today.
3. The release and dispersal of tons of Morgan dollars from the Treasury resulted in a flood or white coins, but also much smaller numbers of wildly toned coins. The latter have slowly acquired a following.
4. Both major TPGs do factor eye appeal into grade decisions, particularly at the MS63 level and above. Wildly colored coins do benefit from this. White coins don't.
5. Given the realities of the numismatic marketplace, namely the fact that few coins are genuinely rare, is it understandable that a significant number of collectors will turn to color when putting together their collections. This makes them stand out.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I actually had an extensive want list of some expensive silver coins that I put on hold when the customer told me he wanted every coin "blast white," and most of them just do not come that way unless they are dipped/treated. (I still would not have put a hold on it but the fellow also turned out to be totally uncommunicative. Perhaps I was too chatty ... .)
I believe that pure silver, however, is a bit more reactive than pure gold, marginally so.
What say ye?
Best Regards,
George
Silver is FAR more reactive than gold. Gold does not form a stable oxide. Acidic dips will not harm pure gold either (unless aqua regia is used). When gold alloys develop toning, the color comes from the reaction of the copper (silver too in some cases) with atmospheric gases or other environmental sources of oxidants.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Silver is more reactive than gold. Look at some salvaged from the sea coins and you will see that "nothing glitters like gold", albeit the silver or copper coins will be in really rought shape in comparison to the gold coinage.
Here is a pretty good article on coinage metals;
http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/copper.htm
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Then there was this 1.
White as the driven snow . Who needs pictures ?
1901 S Morgan Dollar
Love that 1859 twosides!!!
Thanks Vbowling299 (great feat by the way. My best is 269)
A dealer recently picked my 7070 Dansco album for my Seated Liberty half and this coin was in an NGC holder which I'd purchased on ebay to replace the new hole in my type set. Before cracking out , I looked it over a lot then decided to submit, instead. The TrueView photo does it justice, for sure.
If you are collecting early type up through Capped Bust material, you'll find that the majority of serious collectors prefer naturally toned coins.
I personally like toned coins or at least those which appear to have an original skin, but as a dealer I carry some white ones too and find that there are buyers for everything (well, maybe most things).
Coin Rarities Online
"I'm on the younger side, so I don't have a ton of history under my belt but from what I hear from other dealers/collectors in the hobby is that toned coins are a lot more prevalent today than they were 10/20/30 years ago."
Toned coins are more prevalent now for a number of reasons:
1. Dips do strip metal off coin surfaces. This has been shown by electron microscopy (before and after images). See the book by Scott Travers. Nowadays, people are more aware of the consequences of overdipping---diminished luster and consequent grade diminution.
2. Decades ago, white silver coins were the rage. When I was a teenager, I saw dealers dipping coins to order, while the customers waited. That would not happen today.
3. The release and dispersal of tons of Morgan dollars from the Treasury resulted in a flood or white coins, but also much smaller numbers of wildly toned coins. The latter have slowly acquired a following.
4. Both major TPGs do factor eye appeal into grade decisions, particularly at the MS63 level and above. Wildly colored coins do benefit from this. White coins don't.
5. Given the realities of the numismatic marketplace, namely the fact that few coins are genuinely rare, is it understandable that a significant number of collectors will turn to color when putting together their collections. This makes them stand out.
Thanks for the info. What is the Scott Travers book you are referring to, I see he has dozens...
Have you or anyone else had a slabbed toned coin "turn" while in a NGC/PCGS holder?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Your preference for untoned coins is shared by many in this hobby. I can tell because when I go to shows there are many dealers who wouldn't have a coin like this in inventory unless it had first been dipped and had its original skin removed.
Enjoy the Forums and
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
But most of my opinion applies to Morgan dollars in Mint State. When the topic is older type coins in MS and proof, then some surface coloration is a must. And white circulated coins are a major no-no, other than in higher-AU grades.
For me I think toners are great. I have a lot of rather mundane generic coins that have toning and color. I love common NT older coins and even have picked junk silver for toners.
One of my favorite coins this one came from the BST and I was glad to get it.
its all perspective of course. My view is tone and color are great attribute's much of the time and make the hobby far more enjoyable for me even if the coin is a simple widget.
Welcome to the forum.
Toned coins range from black coins, ugly dark coins, warm gold toning coins and all the way to the other end of the spectrum beautifully rainbow color toned coins. It is very hard to say "I don't like toned coins," so is hard to say "I love toned coins
Simply collect what you like and enjoy the hobby.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Tarnish is unattractive.
Everyone draws their own line between the two.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
"I'm on the younger side, so I don't have a ton of history under my belt but from what I hear from other dealers/collectors in the hobby is that toned coins are a lot more prevalent today than they were 10/20/30 years ago."
Toned coins are more prevalent now for a number of reasons:
1. Dips do strip metal off coin surfaces. This has been shown by electron microscopy (before and after images). See the book by Scott Travers. Nowadays, people are more aware of the consequences of overdipping---diminished luster and consequent grade diminution.
2. Decades ago, white silver coins were the rage. When I was a teenager, I saw dealers dipping coins to order, while the customers waited. That would not happen today.
3. The release and dispersal of tons of Morgan dollars from the Treasury resulted in a flood or white coins, but also much smaller numbers of wildly toned coins. The latter have slowly acquired a following.
4. Both major TPGs do factor eye appeal into grade decisions, particularly at the MS63 level and above. Wildly colored coins do benefit from this. White coins don't.
5. Given the realities of the numismatic marketplace, namely the fact that few coins are genuinely rare, is it understandable that a significant number of collectors will turn to color when putting together their collections. This makes them stand out.
Thanks for the info. What is the Scott Travers book you are referring to, I see he has dozens...
Have you or anyone else had a slabbed toned coin "turn" while in a NGC/PCGS holder?
Scott Travers, "The Coin Collector's Survival Manual" 7th Ed. Don't accept his comments blindly. Inexperienced collectors will get into trouble if they try to play the 'crack-out game.'
Yes, I have had coins turn while in top-tier slabs. Years ago, I had a gem red large cent turn while in the holder. As a result, I refuse to buy slabbed early coppers designated 'red' unless I know their provenances. A decade ago, I purchased a gem 1937 proof set---all of the coins were spotless and graded NGC PF65 (the cent was red, the rest were untoned) and they all turned within ca. 9-10 months. Every one of the coins had been carelessly dipped (and the cent was recolored afterwards). Do I think the dealer knew? I couldn't possibly comment, at least not in a public venue.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If you are collecting Morgans, Peace Dollars, Walkers or the like you'll find many who share your preference for untoned coins.
If you are collecting early type up through Capped Bust material, you'll find that the majority of serious collectors prefer naturally toned coins.
I personally like toned coins or at least those which appear to have an original skin, but as a dealer I carry some white ones too and find that there are buyers for everything (well, maybe most things).
Very helpful response--thank you
I just like my coins to be original and attractive, which can mean white (except for circulated) or toned, though I'll gravitate to toned a bit more:
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I prefer coins with the original surfaces. That means that just about any older silver coin, with the exception of Morgan silver dollars, will be toned to some extent. If they are not toned they have probably been dipped.
I don't mind dipping that much if it has been done properly on a Mint State coin. A goodly number of collector disagree with me.
Some collectors pay very high prices for what they believe are beautifully toned coins. I'm not one of them. Many of these "monster toned" have been made to look that way via artificial means.
It really comes down to what you like. If you want your coins to be "white" that's fine, but don't expect it on circulated pieces. If you buy a bunch of those coins, you are asking for financial trouble. Gray is best color for circulated silver coins.
endured for years. Tarnish (the term toning is used by those who are attracted to the effect) is
environmental damage... pure and simple. Some is natural (NT) and some is induced (AT).
Many claim to be able to determine the difference, and some, indeed, can tell...in most cases. Not all. My preference is the original, undamaged, as minted, surface. Now, that being said, it is difficult to find coins over 100 years old with such surfaces (although they do exist). Many, true, have been dipped. Yes, because tarnish is environmental damage (chemicals joining with the base metal), dipping will remove some molecular metal. Overdipping will remove a great deal and actually damage the surface. Some dipping, such as acetone, will remove organic material and not attack the surface metal... this is more like cleaning without abrasion.
Cheers, RickO
I learned a lot from your replies.
I still prefer white for my MS coins.
While trying for a natural (?) look as possible on circulated specimens.
Everything is all right!
I'm a fan of original surfaces in general. Where this means attractive, flashy white in such coins as fresh MS Morgans from bags, Walkers, Franklins & Mercs from rolls, etc., I'm a fan. Where it means nice color or even grey dirt skin on seated, bust, or Barber coinage, or brown, woodgrain, or mahogany surfaces on old copper, I dig that too.
Welcome to the forum.
This is probably my best RAW pick that is safely ensconced in a PCGS holder;
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The adjustmark marks ** (scratches on the obverse) are a negative on this old 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar, but the color is what you should look for.
** In the early days of the coin blanks (planchets) that were too heavy had their weight adjusted. Those marks appear on the obverse of this coin. They were done with a file, and at the early mint ladies sat all day and did this boring task for 65 cents a day.
I have no way to proceed.
They don't sell for much raw and are too common and expensive to slab.
I think it depends on the series.
I enjoy toned coins but don't pay a premium.
Beautiful toning can add multiples to a coin's value. Everyone should keep an open mind on these and know AT vs NT. Some prefer white coins but if they would walk past a toner with great color because they prefer white coins they are passing up an opportunity.
Yes, exactly! Passing on these would be similar to passing on error or variety coins. There are some High premiums on these coins! "You'll be leaving money on the table", so to speak.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I try to avoid the first two and sometimes even a few that would fall into the attractive realm.
I have worked on mostly untoned sets before with great appreciation.
Currently I am working on a Toned 1950-1964 All Denomination Proof Set, not an easy task.
I think it is easy to appreciate both but it just comes down to personal preference.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
My preference is collecting gold, being very picky to choose coins with only original skins whenever possible.
I do like that color.
Everything is all right!
But over time; I have been influenced and I have come to appreciate certain toning (if it is colorful or attractive and not too dark).
My set has BOTH white and toned coins.
However, the important thing to me is the luster.
A white coin OR a toned coin MUST exhibit SOME luster for me to find it attractive.
I always look for the luster bands and flow lines on any coin.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/