Let's assume everything Julian subscribes to is 'right'.
I would like to ask Julian one question.
When a 'knowledgeable collector' such as you speak of, purchases one of your TPG problem coins at your one or two upgraded prices and let's say in ten years from now when you're retired and out of the business, how do you propose this collector sells this coin at or even near the price he paid you for it?
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Originally posted by: Julian IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Originally posted by: Julian IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
It's very easy to sell this coin. The difficulty is getting a price anywhere close to what Julian is asking.
Julian will expire before he will retire and that's pretty cool. He LOVES coins
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: Julian IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
It's very easy to sell this coin. The difficulty is getting a price anywhere close to what Julian is asking.
That was my point and I assumed everyone would think so too.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Originally posted by: CoinRaritiesOnline The 1815 25c was sent to PCGS and is now graded MS63 in a Secure slab.
Did PCGS pay the grade guarantee price so that the ultimate loser is our host ?
Wasn't the coin in an NGC Details holder? If so, the PCGS grade guarantee would not apply (for obvious reasons).
PCGS has now reaffirmed its earlier grade of MS-63 and now the coin is in a secure holder. So who is right and who is wrong? NGC or PCGS or the keyboard graders?
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Did PCGS pay the grade guarantee price so that the ultimate loser is our host ?
Wasn't the coin in an NGC Details holder? If so, the PCGS grade guarantee would not apply (for obvious reasons).
PCGS has now reaffirmed its earlier grade of MS-63 and now the coin is in a secure holder. So who is right and who is wrong? NGC or PCGS or the keyboard graders?
Life is good again as now the Kool-Aid drinkers can all relax
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Another beloved dealer in my area has been using the same method successfully for years....always has his table set up next to these other guys with great coins, prices clearly marked and always ready to make a deal on anything. They do business all day long, are fun to talk to, make great offers on coin, etc....the beloved guy and his wife just sit.
I've bought and sold with Julian a bit and find him to be a super nice guy...but it is a total head scratcher to me how these Oldschool dudes keep in the game sometimes...
Do not bash a person. Do not bash someone else's coin.
The person is off-limits for "bashing,"as you say,but the coin not so much.This would be a mighty boring place if all people did here was gush about how wonderful someone else's coin is.
As for believing in my coins,when time comes to sell,that works only for as long as I don't need the money that the coin I believe in might bring me. One can believe in something as fervently as they wish,but that does not change the reality of the thing.
The reality here is that a PCGS MS-63 coin was cracked-out of its holder with hopes of garnering a higher grade number from the competing TPG and it didn't work out this time for the submitter.
I'm seeing the OP coin as having been cleaned at one time and has now retoned.Coin is not a dog by any means but what the plastic house label says (from a reputable TPG,one of the top two) wins the day regardless of what the owner of the coin has to say.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I've had coins come back all over the map at times. They are just grading events, not necessarily definitive of anything.
I knew when this thread first popped that the 1815 quarter would go back into a 63 holder, and I'd still be expected a MS64 holder down the road. It's a very decent coin imo. If you want perfect, original, and totally problem free on this date, you have to start around the MS66 or even MS67 level. Fwiw I had an NGC MS65 of the 1818/5 that was original and certainly gem, if only a "C" coin.....just couldn't cross it or get CAC to sticker it because of the strike...it had MS66 surfaces and luster otherwise. Lack of a sticker and non-PCGS killed it. It sold for $12.5K which was 64+ money.
I'm only here to defend the originally posted coin, not the price, not other coins, not Julian, etc. Post another coin, maybe I'll have a different opinion. One thing for sure, this thread has displayed a lot of gaps in people's knowledge on how the actual TPG grading system works. And it does support the notion that too many people are only stuck on the currently assigned graded, for better or for worse. This concept is slowly eroding the foundation of the rare coin market.
I updated this thread when I came across the listing and saw the coin in new PCGS plastic because there were some here convinced that it had somehow changed appearance between its first PCGS slabbing and subsequent NGC grading. It looked exactly the same to me then and it looks exactly the same to me now.
This whole thread proves to me that most of us just don't understand the crack out and upgrade game.
Pretty much. And that can be construed as not understanding current market "grading" in totality. Trying to grade a choice unc bust quarter like it's a Morgan dollar or Washington quarter isn't going to help. You're ultimately buying a single "grading event"....not anything else. Most 19th century coins like this bust quarter probably have gone through 2-5 grading events over the past 30 years. Be certain, that when you are buying a slabbed coin, you are buying the latest in a sequence of grading events, and more than likely not the lowest.
I've sold lots of coins in 63 holders for 64 or even 65 money (to dealers only though). That didn't make me a crook or opportunist as those coins often tended to be the very first ones to sell. I had a $7K raw coin that came back 64. I felt it had a shot for 65. So I tried it again...came back a stupid 63. I even tried to sell that coin in the 63 holder for a significant loss and was laughed at. The next resubmit it came back MS65 and the price quadrupled. Those same people that laughed at the 63 grade were now all interesting in buying it as a MS65 for all the money. They fought over it. It's a strange hobby sometimes.
Cracked out a TPG graded MS64 $10 Lib once because it screamed MS65 to me. It proceeded to come back BB, BB, MS66. Tell me what the real grade was? If you were the owner during any of these 3 different grades how would you "offer" the coin. What if you sold it in the 64 holder and the next customer got altered surfaces/BB's from both TPG's? And then the person responsible for the 66 grade must be a genius. It's all relative. And someday, that same coin may end up in a BB/genuine holder and start the cycle all over again. I showed that coin to several PNG dealers who are specialists in upgrading and cracking out gold coins. They couldn't tell me exactly was "wrong" with it.
what makes me laugh about this thread is imagining i own the coin and i am shopping it around at a show as a 64. i would get laughed out of the building. i doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it.
For the record,i think the NGC opinion is the correct opinion for the coin that is the subject of this thread.
Show this coin around at a decent-sized show and I too doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it. The cleaning does jump out at you. That's the first thing most dealers would point out to the would-be seller. It's amazing how nit-picking most dealers can be when they put on their buyer hat. On second thought,not so amazing when one considers that their livelihood depends on being very discerning buyers.
Every coin collector should change it up a bit and go to a show with some of their nicest pieces and offer them for sale to show dealers. There is,of course,no obligation to sell. Just be sure to ask alot for your nicest pieces. The collector who will do this is in for a rude awakening. Coin bashing gone wild is what you are in store for but take comfort in the fact that it is all in fun and can be very instructive. Depending on what one hears about coins offered for sale,one can make decisions such as do they even want to deal with a particular dealer,buy or sell, no matter.
Whatever Rick of the reality-based TV show Pawn Stars would pay for the piece (1/2 to 2/3 of retail) is the correct price,in my opinion.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
For even smaller sized shows in my area (40-80 dealers), I could find several each show that would be happy to buy Julian's bust quarter for MS63 money (based on PCGS price guide of $8450)...including me. Unfortunately, the seller is not letting it go for under MS64+ money so all you can do is wish. $3K-$4K is where mint state money begins on this coin.....sign me up for this MS63 at those numbers. Wholesale levels of the PCGS price guide are around $5K.
Rick of Pawn stars? He's going to bring in a local coin dealer who probably won't know the exact market value of the coin anyways. So it's easier for them to work on 25-40% and be "safe." Rick H. an expert on the degree of surface preservation for a bust quarter? I don't think so.
As far as taking your nicest coins to a local show and expecting strong offers from local dealers? That's a losing proposition as most of them want to buy near generic levels. "Stepping up" for those guys is paying "ask" for a rattler that's next grade higher/gold sticker worthy. I only take my nicest rare coins to national dealers at national shows or consign them to major auctions, where they are appreciated for what they really are....not somethign to be picked off by your state locals for 30c to 60c on the dollar. You can buy great coins from your local shops when they occasionally show up. But, never expect to be able to sell them back for what they are really worth on the wholesale market. I view it as a 1 way street. Buy from them...but sell elsewhere.
How would this coin be received had Pcgs graded it details and NGC graded it a 63?
That's very possibly one of the former permutations already recorded. That would be my guess. I'd still be a ready buyer at the "mint state level." Except it would be even cheaper in the NGC holder.
If we all decide to be "discerning" buyers for only the very best coins out there, then 80% of the coins fall into the crapper, essentially dragging down the remaining upper 20% with it. There can't be a real market if 80% of all MS63's aren't worth owning, except at AU money. If this is really how it works today....we've got ourselves into quite a pickle.
I've taken some pretty marginal bust coins in mint state holders to coin shows and always gotten the labeled money for them. Heck, one of my marginal bust coins was an 1803 half dime in an NGC AU58 holder. That coin was cleaned worse than this bust quarter. It had about 15% luster remaining and several fairly good gouges in the fields. I never dreamed what would happen next. The coin was sharp as a tack and probably unc before it was ruined by someone. I sold it for MS60 money in the 58 holder, which at the time was approx 2X CDN MS60 money. 6 months later I saw it was in a MS62 holder at auction....fetching....MS62 money, or 50% more than I sold it for. Labels tend to rule. That 62 with 15% luster fetched 62 money. Why wouldn't I want a TPG graded MS63 bust quarter with 100% luster going for 61/62 money? Sign me up.
I agree that this thread feels 7 months old..... strange.
I've learned that some people actually believe that what is printed on the coin's label is bedrock truth, almost like it's a physical property of the coin. Coins have mass, a chemical composition, a diameter, thickness, reed count, and a number of other actual attributes. They don't actually have grades. There is no "correct" grade. Sssssssssssss...... POW! Mind Blown!!!
Some coins are clearly problem coins. Some are clearly OK. Many, especially from that era, are in an enormously large grey zone. Who decides what is a problem and what isn't? It's not in the Bible. It isn't in ASTM manuals. It isn't even in the Constitution. In fact, I don't think anyone has even written it down in one place. It's a loose standard, agreed upon by nobody in particular, on most days, in good light, in most places, subject quite literally sometimes to what people ate for breakfast or how blurry their eyesight is that day.
Trying to convince some people otherwise is apparently a pointless endeavor. It takes an educated and open mind to consider than coin grading, while enormously useful, is flawed, inconsistent, and nothing more than someone's opinion. When grades are assigned by professionals at the top TPGs, it's an informed opinion. The market usually agrees. The same people who can't open their mind to this reality probably think there is an actual lizard somewhere in the Geico building, that elves are somehow involved in the production of cookies within a hollow tree, and that leprechauns are magically involved in the manufacturing of breakfast cereal.
The dealer whose inventory is the subject of this thread subscribes to a slightly different and slightly broader view of the numismatic world than some. I think that's great, even if I don't want to buy some of his coins at his prices. Actually, I don't think I've ever met a dealer who evaluated and priced each coin in his inventory exactly like I would.
How would this coin be received had Pcgs graded it details and NGC graded it a 63?
How do we know that PCGS hasn't given the piece a details grade at some point in its TPG grading history?
I think we should call Rick from Pawn Stars to find out.
I don't recall Rick ever mentioning to the buyer any cleaning that had been done to pieces that have been offered to him and I've watched nearly every episode of Pawn Stars. Say what you want about Pawn Stars but the prices they pay for stuff reflects reality, an "it is what it is" attitude. Rick often depends on expert opinion before making offer.That's just being smart in the dog eat dog business that he is in. Besides,he can afford expert opinions so why not do it in the effort to avoid making expensive mistakes?
Trying to get a 64 out of this coin,PCGS or NGC no matter, is to be chasing good money after bad. Rick,to his credit,understands the futility and waste of money chasing good money after bad if he understands nothing else about the coin market.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Originally posted by: brg5658 When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
There is a double standard here.....but it is not with the seller.
The best we know, the last 3 appearances at the TPG's it was graded twice by PCGS as MS63 and once as no grade by NGC. The last time I looked, PCGS coins carry more weight and bring more money than NGC coins. PCGS's grading on MS bust coinage is widely accepted among those who deal in these coins as being more strict than NGC, especially as far as what they let go as acceptable/uncleaned surfaces. Looks at the % graded from each of MS65 bust halves if you have doubts.
How many here, if they owned this coin would tell all prospective buyers that NGC BB'd it along the way? And that includes dealers of course. We can't have a double standard. If consigned to auction, would they also demand from the auction house that it be described as a former NGC BB? And for all those who have consigned coins to auctions before, have you sent the auction house the complete grading history of every coin that you know has been sent in more than once and has received different grades? The more likely scenario for such a MS63 bust quarter, is that PCGS keeps grading it MS63, and NGC eventually slaps a 64 grade on it. When you sell that coin, do you then divulge the PCGS grading history (ie the coin went P63 twice, NGC BB once, and N64 once). I think very few around here would do that.
I don't know about anyone else, but a coin that comes back the same grade 2 for 2 from PCGS is usually a pretty good sign of what the market presently thinks it is. I would have to say NGC got this one wrong, for whatever reason. Hey, it happens. What happens when/if NGC grades this coin MS64 next time around...or even a MS63? That would mean they were wrong on the "BB" submission. I would say the odds are high it would cross to a 63 on a subsequent NGC submission. If PCGS wants this coin in their holder (twice) you can bet eventually, NGC will want this in their 63 holder as well.
And fwiw, look at the all the MS63-64 large size bust quarters in the Heritage archives. Probably around half or more of those have been dipped, a large % still white, often with offending carbon spots or leftover streaks from a poor rinse. You will find very few fully original coins with blazing luster. What many here expect in a MS63 holder might be better described as MS63U (ie "unicorn"). My state dealers almost never see a 63 bust quarter. I don't recall seeing one in any of their inventories over the past 15 years. They'd all be tickled pink to own one, including this one, regardless of whether it was fully original or once/twice dipped.
Originally posted by: brg5658 When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
Exactly!!! The seller shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Inconsistent!!!
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
There is a double standard here.....but it is not with the seller.
The best we know, the last 3 appearances at the TPG's it was graded twice by PCGS as MS63 and once as no grade by NGC. The last time I looked, PCGS coins carry more weight and bring more money than NGC coins. PCGS's grading on MS bust coinage is widely accepted among those who deal in these coins as being more strict than NGC, especially as far as what they let go as acceptable/uncleaned surfaces. Looks at the % graded from each of MS65 bust halves if you have doubts.
How many here, if they owned this coin would tell all prospective buyers that NGC BB'd it along the way? And that includes dealers of course. We can't have a double standard. If consigned to auction, would they also demand from the auction house that it be described as a former NGC BB? And for all those who have consigned coins to auctions before, have you sent the auction house the complete grading history of every coin that you know has been sent in more than once and has received different grades?
I don't know about anyone else, but a coin that comes back the same grade 2 for 2 from PCGS is usually a pretty good sign of what the market presently thinks it is. I would have to say NGC got this one wrong, for whatever reason. Hey, it happens. What happens when/if NGC grades this coin MS64 next time around...or even a MS63? That would mean they were wrong on the "BB" submission. I would say the odds are high it would cross to a 63 on a subsequent NGC submission....like anyone would bother doing it since it would drop in value by 10-20%.
And fwiw, look at the all the MS63-64 large size bust quarters in the Heritage archives. Probably around half or more of those have been dipped, a large % still white, often with offending carbon spots or leftover streaks from a poor rinse. You will find very few fully original coins with blazing luster. What many here expect in a MS63 holder might be better described as MS63U (ie "unicorn"). My state dealers almost never see a 63 bust quarter. I don't recall seeing one in any of their inventories over the past 15 years. They'd all be tickled pink to own one, including this one, regardless of whether it was fully original or once/twice dipped.
It was a simple observation. None of your rambling reply negates the truth of what I said.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
....It was a simple observation. None of your rambling reply negates the truth of what I said.
Simple observation? Not simple at all since you missed the most obvious and important correlation.
The only truth that I see is that a number of forum faithful apparently have a double standard. Those without this double standard (ie those that collect only raw coins) feel free to cast stones.
Julian's coin came back twice from the most respected coin company, and the favorite flavor of Koolaid drinkers on this forum. If that isn't the grade the coin is, then what is? Julian had every reason to mention the coin's background the first time around....it was raw...with one appearance known to him from each TPG (PCGS MS63 and NGC BB). The 3rd appearance at PCGS imo broke that tie. No longer a need, or a double standard, to list the previous history. 2 for 2. Simple observation.
Originally posted by: brg5658 When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
Exactly!!! The seller shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Inconsistent!!!
Why do grading companies get to have it both ways ?
....It was a simple observation. None of your rambling reply negates the truth of what I said.
Simple observation? Not simple at all since you missed the most obvious correlation.
The only truth that I see is that a number of forum faithful apparently have a double standard as well. Those without this double standard, feel free to cast a stone.
I think what you're missing is that I agree with you -- the history of a coin's previous grades is irrelevant to a current sale.
The picture of the coin in a problem free PCGS holder was provided when it was for sell in the problem cleaned NGC holder. It was a "convenient" piece of irrelevant historical information that was provided by the seller in a disingenuous way. That was my point.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
....I think what you're missing is that I agree with you -- the history of a coin's previous grades is irrelevant to a current sale.
The picture of the coin in a problem free PCGS holder was provided when it was for sell in the problem cleaned NGC holder. It was a "convenient" piece of irrelevant historical information that was provided by the seller in a disingenuous way. That was my point.
I don't agree with all that. In my previous posts on this subject I've always stated that the past history is "critical" in determining the coin's "real" grade and market value. The one P63 grade didn't define the coin. Nor did the single NGC BB. The 3rd try has now brought about a 66% correlation which is actually rather good. I consider a coin fairly graded if it comes back the same grade from the TPG's 2 for 3 or 3 for 5. I don't pay much attention to the low or high grades, more so to the mean/median grade. I'd like to see all coins go in 3-5 times....with the caveat that this history is recorded and available to all subsequent buyers. Many have already been graded 3-5X. But that history has been lost. What I don't agree is that the current grade is what is given the most weight as to what a coin is worth, and not to the bell curve of the 3-5 submissions that may have preceded it. I want to know what all the experts though of the coin over "X" grading events....not just the very last one. The average of the grades is far more important than any single one of them.
The full history of the coin's grading is critical to knowing the true value. Who wants a high end 63 coin (paying MS64 money) that was tried 10X for MS64 and went 63 (or less) on the 9 other attempts? That this bust quarter was once in a MS63 holder before it BB'd at NGC was critical information. I'd want to know that as a potential buyer. And I would pay more if that was proven to me before the sale. I'd also like to know that NGC BB'd. But at this point with 2 PCGS events at MS63, I consider than almost irrelevant. Now if this coin went NGC63, PCGS BB, and then NGC63....I would consider the PCGS BB to be critical information as I feel their standards for "acceptable surfaces" are more strict. Yet, I don't expect a seller to divulge that as the coin went 2 for 2 at NGC. However, it would bring substantially less money than a PCGS 63.
The MS66 $10 Lib I mentioned earlier went 64, BB, BB, 66. With consecutive BB's from PCGS and NGC (that was my confirmation to give up on the coin). Would the new MS66 owner consider than previous history irrelevant? I hope not. I don't have to worry about the double standard as I shipped that coin off raw to the auction house to be sold raw. It was their decision to resubmit it....the loved it. And no, I didn't divulge the 64, BB, BB grading events to them. They didn't ask. Had they asked, I'd have told them as the coin was raw any ways. So the same service that BB'd then 66'd it. They were wrong, one way or the other.
Would be interesting if Julian sends this in to CAC, and it gets a sticker. Then we can revisit this thread for a 3rd time.
Double Standard: This board leans very heavily towards PCGS coins and their grades. Unless stickered, NGC coins are often perceived to be a grade lower....and not without some good cause I might add. So if true, why are a pair of PCGS 63 grading events now tossed out in favor of concentrating on an effectively "lower" NGC grading event of a BB? If we discount high NGC grades, why aren't we also discounting/ignoring low NGC grading events. If they aren't getting it right on the high end, why do we believe the low end in this example? Clue me in here. Note also in Julian's defense, he didn't even state that this coin was graded twice a 63 by PCGS. Isn't that hurting his own case? That doesn't fit in very well to the notion that some are calling that a double standard? It's not consistent either way as 2 grading events haven't been referenced.
And that can be construed as not understanding current market "grading" in totality. Trying to grade a choice unc bust quarter like it's a Morgan dollar or Washington quarter isn't going to help. You're ultimately buying a single "grading event"....not anything else. Most 19th century coins like this bust quarter probably have gone through 2-5 grading events over the past 30 years. Be certain, that when you are buying a slabbed coin, you are buying the latest in a sequence of grading events, and more than likely not the lowest.
Despite all the twists and turns this thread has taken, this paragraph rings true to me as pretty important...especially the last sentence.
I hope this thread gets locked, and I hope any violators of the rules set by our hosts get a warning.
Where is the appropriateness of using cyber-bullying in expressing a disagreement? Where is it appropriate in using an Internet message board to bash someone (or someone's wares or practices) over a sincere disagreement? Are the bashers under the mis-guided notion that they're doing a public service by "outing" this matter?
I really think too many of us need to take a step back and pay more attention to our own actions before paying so much attention to the actions of others. I don't expect an Internet message board will always be smiles and frolicking puppies, but on this Easter Sunday let's remember the Golden Rule...
BTW: The OP coin looks a heck of lot better in that Secure 63 plastic!
Better? The coin in the Secure 63 plastic appears to me exactly as it did in the NGC unc/improperly cleaned holder.
It's a case of a wiping operation gone south to this observer.Look how dull the overall appearance of the coin is,now in a 63 Secure holder.To me this indicates that the unc. (no wear) piece,cleaned long ago when it was fashionable,has been lightly wiped fairly recently with the hope that some mint luster would appear.
Many collectors do not like dark coins regardless of the grade number,regardless of the coin's supposed rarity and dealers know this.
I once owned an 1891-O over horizontal O dime that was unc condition.All indications are that 1891-O over horizontal O dimes are extremely rare in unc. It was without problems except for being dark,even darker than the OP coin.One sees dashes instead of prices for 1891-O over horizontal O in all grades when checking Coin World magazine's price guide.I took it to a local B&M coin shop and let a highly respected dealer inspect it. He told me my coin was too dark for him,"ugly" was the word he used to describe my coin and he made no comment about it's rarity;he just shrugged his shoulders.To him it was just ugly and he knew that it would sit in his case for a long time,begging for a buyer if he acquired it from me.
I'll go out on a limb and say Rick (of Pawn Stars),after consulting with his on-staff expert,would be a buyer of the OP coin at about $4-5K,and not a penny more.
I don't have an opinion about how much money the owner is asking for his quarter.Ask moon money for your numismatic treasures if you want to.The police won't care.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
My one take on this: I wouldn't be a buyer at that price. I might overpay for toning off and on, but I can usually find a buyer that can take it off my hands for at least even money or more. For this coin, I'd be buried immediately and I'd be lucky to find another buyer that would even give me half of the current price. MS-63 appears to be the max grade on this piece, considering the number of times it has been graded. All the shovels in the world couldn't get me out of that hole.
Comments
The 1815 25c was sent to PCGS and is now graded MS63 in a Secure slab.
Did PCGS pay the grade guarantee price so that the ultimate loser is our host ?
I would like to ask Julian one question.
When a 'knowledgeable collector' such as you speak of, purchases one of your TPG problem coins at your one or two upgraded prices and let's say in ten years from now when you're retired and out of the business, how do you propose this collector sells this coin at or even near the price he paid you for it?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
It's very easy to sell this coin. The difficulty is getting a price anywhere close to what Julian is asking.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Latin American Collection
IMHO, coins have always stood on their own merits. However, with fewer and fewer collectors learning on their own, it may not always be that way. I cannot tell the future. One thing that I can tell you is that I have no plans to retire.
Okay, not to sound morbid, but in the future when you are no longer with us, then how is this collector or their family supposed to sell this coin?
I think it is an important question worth addressing.
It's very easy to sell this coin. The difficulty is getting a price anywhere close to what Julian is asking.
That was my point and I assumed everyone would think so too.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I'm just surprised the anyone was able to find this thread without a functioning search feature.
I agree, but this is one of the most entertaining threads on this forum.
The 1815 25c was sent to PCGS and is now graded MS63 in a Secure slab.
Did PCGS pay the grade guarantee price so that the ultimate loser is our host ?
PCGS has now reaffirmed its earlier grade of MS-63 and now the coin is in a secure holder. So who is right and who is wrong? NGC or PCGS or the keyboard graders?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Yeah, entertaining if you're into bullying, street fighting and riots.
This thread could have been educational.
I can't remember a thread with such a wolf pack mentality.
Someone wants to vent, criticize, bash? Ok with me. I like a lively board too.
BUT several are tripping over themselves to get in there and exact their pound of flesh.
Over and over and over again. With venom dripping off their space bar.
All directed towards a real person........over a coin grade and asking price.
I'll recant, this has been an educational thread about manners.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
The 1815 25c was sent to PCGS and is now graded MS63 in a Secure slab.
Did PCGS pay the grade guarantee price so that the ultimate loser is our host ?
PCGS has now reaffirmed its earlier grade of MS-63 and now the coin is in a secure holder. So who is right and who is wrong? NGC or PCGS or the keyboard graders?
Life is good again as now the Kool-Aid drinkers can all relax
I've bought and sold with Julian a bit and find him to be a super nice guy...but it is a total head scratcher to me how these Oldschool dudes keep in the game sometimes...
It really could be the Shrooms
The person is off-limits for "bashing,"as you say,but the coin not so much.This would be a mighty boring place if all people did here was gush about how wonderful someone else's coin is.
As for believing in my coins,when time comes to sell,that works only for as long as I don't need the money that the coin I believe in might bring me. One can believe in something as fervently as they wish,but that does not change the reality of the thing.
The reality here is that a PCGS MS-63 coin was cracked-out of its holder with hopes of garnering a higher grade number from the competing TPG and it didn't work out this time for the submitter.
I'm seeing the OP coin as having been cleaned at one time and has now retoned.Coin is not a dog by any means but what the plastic house label says (from a reputable TPG,one of the top two) wins the day regardless of what the owner of the coin has to say.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I'm just surprised the anyone was able to find this thread without a functioning search feature.
Amazing this thread is only 7 weeks old. I'd swear it had been around for 7 months!
BTW: The OP coin looks a heck of lot better in that Secure 63 plastic!
I knew when this thread first popped that the 1815 quarter would go back into a 63 holder, and I'd still be expected a MS64 holder down the road. It's a very decent coin imo. If you want perfect, original, and totally problem free on this date, you have to start around the MS66 or even MS67 level. Fwiw I had an NGC MS65 of the 1818/5 that was original and certainly gem, if only a "C" coin.....just couldn't cross it or get CAC to sticker it because of the strike...it had MS66 surfaces and luster otherwise. Lack of a sticker and non-PCGS killed it. It sold for $12.5K which was 64+ money.
I'm only here to defend the originally posted coin, not the price, not other coins, not Julian, etc. Post another coin, maybe I'll have a different opinion. One thing for sure, this thread has displayed a lot of gaps in people's knowledge on how the actual TPG grading system works. And it does support the notion that too many people are only stuck on the currently assigned graded, for better or for worse. This concept is slowly eroding the foundation of the rare coin market.
Coin Rarities Online
This whole thread proves to me that most of us just don't understand the crack out and upgrade game.
Pretty much. And that can be construed as not understanding current market "grading" in totality. Trying to grade a choice unc bust quarter like it's a Morgan dollar or Washington quarter isn't going to help. You're ultimately buying a single "grading event"....not anything else. Most 19th century coins like this bust quarter probably have gone through 2-5 grading events over the past 30 years. Be certain, that when you are buying a slabbed coin, you are buying the latest in a sequence of grading events, and more than likely not the lowest.
I've sold lots of coins in 63 holders for 64 or even 65 money (to dealers only though). That didn't make me a crook or opportunist as those coins often tended to be the very first ones to sell. I had a $7K raw coin that came back 64. I felt it had a shot for 65. So I tried it again...came back a stupid 63. I even tried to sell that coin in the 63 holder for a significant loss and was laughed at. The next resubmit it came back MS65 and the price quadrupled. Those same people that laughed at the 63 grade were now all interesting in buying it as a MS65 for all the money. They fought over it. It's a strange hobby sometimes.
Cracked out a TPG graded MS64 $10 Lib once because it screamed MS65 to me. It proceeded to come back BB, BB, MS66. Tell me what the real grade was? If you were the owner during any of these 3 different grades how would you "offer" the coin. What if you sold it in the 64 holder and the next customer got altered surfaces/BB's from both TPG's? And then the person responsible for the 66 grade must be a genius. It's all relative. And someday, that same coin may end up in a BB/genuine holder and start the cycle all over again. I showed that coin to several PNG dealers who are specialists in upgrading and cracking out gold coins. They couldn't tell me exactly was "wrong" with it.
For the record,i think the NGC opinion is the correct opinion for the coin that is the subject of this thread.
Show this coin around at a decent-sized show and I too doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it. The cleaning does jump out at you. That's the first thing most dealers would point out to the would-be seller. It's amazing how nit-picking most dealers can be when they put on their buyer hat. On second thought,not so amazing when one considers that their livelihood depends on being very discerning buyers.
Every coin collector should change it up a bit and go to a show with some of their nicest pieces and offer them for sale to show dealers. There is,of course,no obligation to sell. Just be sure to ask alot for your nicest pieces. The collector who will do this is in for a rude awakening. Coin bashing gone wild is what you are in store for but take comfort in the fact that it is all in fun and can be very instructive. Depending on what one hears about coins offered for sale,one can make decisions such as do they even want to deal with a particular dealer,buy or sell, no matter.
Whatever Rick of the reality-based TV show Pawn Stars would pay for the piece (1/2 to 2/3 of retail) is the correct price,in my opinion.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Rick of Pawn stars? He's going to bring in a local coin dealer who probably won't know the exact market value of the coin anyways. So it's easier for them to work on 25-40% and be "safe." Rick H. an expert on the degree of surface preservation for a bust quarter? I don't think so.
As far as taking your nicest coins to a local show and expecting strong offers from local dealers? That's a losing proposition as most of them want to buy near generic levels. "Stepping up" for those guys is paying "ask" for a rattler that's next grade higher/gold sticker worthy. I only take my nicest rare coins to national dealers at national shows or consign them to major auctions, where they are appreciated for what they really are....not somethign to be picked off by your state locals for 30c to 60c on the dollar. You can buy great coins from your local shops when they occasionally show up. But, never expect to be able to sell them back for what they are really worth on the wholesale market. I view it as a 1 way street. Buy from them...but sell elsewhere.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
How would this coin be received had Pcgs graded it details and NGC graded it a 63?
I'm not sure. I think we should call Rick from Pawn Stars to find out.
Coin Rarities Online
How would this coin be received had Pcgs graded it details and NGC graded it a 63?
That's very possibly one of the former permutations already recorded. That would be my guess. I'd still be a ready buyer at the "mint state level." Except it would be even cheaper in the NGC holder.
If we all decide to be "discerning" buyers for only the very best coins out there, then 80% of the coins fall into the crapper, essentially dragging down the remaining upper 20% with it. There can't be a real market if 80% of all MS63's aren't worth owning, except at AU money. If this is really how it works today....we've got ourselves into quite a pickle.
I've taken some pretty marginal bust coins in mint state holders to coin shows and always gotten the labeled money for them. Heck, one of my marginal bust coins was an 1803 half dime in an NGC AU58 holder. That coin was cleaned worse than this bust quarter. It had about 15% luster remaining and several fairly good gouges in the fields. I never dreamed what would happen next. The coin was sharp as a tack and probably unc before it was ruined by someone. I sold it for MS60 money in the 58 holder, which at the time was approx 2X CDN MS60 money. 6 months later I saw it was in a MS62 holder at auction....fetching....MS62 money, or 50% more than I sold it for. Labels tend to rule. That 62 with 15% luster fetched 62 money. Why wouldn't I want a TPG graded MS63 bust quarter with 100% luster going for 61/62 money? Sign me up.
I've learned that some people actually believe that what is printed on the coin's label is bedrock truth, almost like it's a physical property of the coin. Coins have mass, a chemical composition, a diameter, thickness, reed count, and a number of other actual attributes. They don't actually have grades. There is no "correct" grade. Sssssssssssss...... POW! Mind Blown!!!
Some coins are clearly problem coins. Some are clearly OK. Many, especially from that era, are in an enormously large grey zone. Who decides what is a problem and what isn't? It's not in the Bible. It isn't in ASTM manuals. It isn't even in the Constitution. In fact, I don't think anyone has even written it down in one place. It's a loose standard, agreed upon by nobody in particular, on most days, in good light, in most places, subject quite literally sometimes to what people ate for breakfast or how blurry their eyesight is that day.
Trying to convince some people otherwise is apparently a pointless endeavor. It takes an educated and open mind to consider than coin grading, while enormously useful, is flawed, inconsistent, and nothing more than someone's opinion. When grades are assigned by professionals at the top TPGs, it's an informed opinion. The market usually agrees. The same people who can't open their mind to this reality probably think there is an actual lizard somewhere in the Geico building, that elves are somehow involved in the production of cookies within a hollow tree, and that leprechauns are magically involved in the manufacturing of breakfast cereal.
The dealer whose inventory is the subject of this thread subscribes to a slightly different and slightly broader view of the numismatic world than some. I think that's great, even if I don't want to buy some of his coins at his prices. Actually, I don't think I've ever met a dealer who evaluated and priced each coin in his inventory exactly like I would.
How do we know that PCGS hasn't given the piece a details grade at some point in its TPG grading history?
I think we should call Rick from Pawn Stars to find out.
I don't recall Rick ever mentioning to the buyer any cleaning that had been done to pieces that have been offered to him and I've watched nearly every episode of Pawn Stars. Say what you want about Pawn Stars but the prices they pay for stuff reflects reality,
an "it is what it is" attitude. Rick often depends on expert opinion before making offer.That's just being smart in the dog eat dog business that he is in. Besides,he can afford expert opinions so why not do it in the effort to avoid making expensive mistakes?
Trying to get a 64 out of this coin,PCGS or NGC no matter, is to be chasing good money after bad. Rick,to his credit,understands the futility and waste of money chasing good money after bad if he understands nothing else about the coin market.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
It is about the money, plain and simple.
Best, SH
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
There is a double standard here.....but it is not with the seller.
The best we know, the last 3 appearances at the TPG's it was graded twice by PCGS as MS63 and once as no grade by NGC. The last time I looked, PCGS coins carry more weight and bring more money than NGC coins. PCGS's grading on MS bust coinage is widely accepted among those who deal in these coins as being more strict than NGC, especially as far as what they let go as acceptable/uncleaned surfaces. Looks at the % graded from each of MS65 bust halves if you have doubts.
How many here, if they owned this coin would tell all prospective buyers that NGC BB'd it along the way? And that includes dealers of course. We can't have a double standard. If consigned to auction, would they also demand from the auction house that it be described as a former NGC BB? And for all those who have consigned coins to auctions before, have you sent the auction house the complete grading history of every coin that you know has been sent in more than once and has received different grades? The more likely scenario for such a MS63 bust quarter, is that PCGS keeps grading it MS63, and NGC eventually slaps a 64 grade on it. When you sell that coin, do you then divulge the PCGS grading history (ie the coin went P63 twice, NGC BB once, and N64 once). I think very few around here would do that.
I don't know about anyone else, but a coin that comes back the same grade 2 for 2 from PCGS is usually a pretty good sign of what the market presently thinks it is. I would have to say NGC got this one wrong, for whatever reason. Hey, it happens. What happens when/if NGC grades this coin MS64 next time around...or even a MS63? That would mean they were wrong on the "BB" submission. I would say the odds are high it would cross to a 63 on a subsequent NGC submission. If PCGS wants this coin in their holder (twice) you can bet eventually, NGC will want this in their 63 holder as well.
And fwiw, look at the all the MS63-64 large size bust quarters in the Heritage archives. Probably around half or more of those have been dipped, a large % still white, often with offending carbon spots or leftover streaks from a poor rinse. You will find very few fully original coins with blazing luster. What many here expect in a MS63 holder might be better described as MS63U (ie "unicorn"). My state dealers almost never see a 63 bust quarter. I don't recall seeing one in any of their inventories over the past 15 years. They'd all be tickled pink to own one, including this one, regardless of whether it was fully original or once/twice dipped.
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
Exactly!!! The seller shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Inconsistent!!!
Lets move on
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
There is a double standard here.....but it is not with the seller.
The best we know, the last 3 appearances at the TPG's it was graded twice by PCGS as MS63 and once as no grade by NGC. The last time I looked, PCGS coins carry more weight and bring more money than NGC coins. PCGS's grading on MS bust coinage is widely accepted among those who deal in these coins as being more strict than NGC, especially as far as what they let go as acceptable/uncleaned surfaces. Looks at the % graded from each of MS65 bust halves if you have doubts.
How many here, if they owned this coin would tell all prospective buyers that NGC BB'd it along the way? And that includes dealers of course. We can't have a double standard. If consigned to auction, would they also demand from the auction house that it be described as a former NGC BB? And for all those who have consigned coins to auctions before, have you sent the auction house the complete grading history of every coin that you know has been sent in more than once and has received different grades?
I don't know about anyone else, but a coin that comes back the same grade 2 for 2 from PCGS is usually a pretty good sign of what the market presently thinks it is. I would have to say NGC got this one wrong, for whatever reason. Hey, it happens. What happens when/if NGC grades this coin MS64 next time around...or even a MS63? That would mean they were wrong on the "BB" submission. I would say the odds are high it would cross to a 63 on a subsequent NGC submission....like anyone would bother doing it since it would drop in value by 10-20%.
And fwiw, look at the all the MS63-64 large size bust quarters in the Heritage archives. Probably around half or more of those have been dipped, a large % still white, often with offending carbon spots or leftover streaks from a poor rinse. You will find very few fully original coins with blazing luster. What many here expect in a MS63 holder might be better described as MS63U (ie "unicorn"). My state dealers almost never see a 63 bust quarter. I don't recall seeing one in any of their inventories over the past 15 years. They'd all be tickled pink to own one, including this one, regardless of whether it was fully original or once/twice dipped.
It was a simple observation. None of your rambling reply negates the truth of what I said.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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Simple observation? Not simple at all since you missed the most obvious and important correlation.
The only truth that I see is that a number of forum faithful apparently have a double standard. Those without this double standard (ie those that collect only raw coins) feel free to cast stones.
Julian's coin came back twice from the most respected coin company, and the favorite flavor of Koolaid drinkers on this forum. If that isn't the grade the coin is, then what is? Julian had every reason to mention the coin's background the first time around....it was raw...with one appearance known to him from each TPG (PCGS MS63 and NGC BB). The 3rd appearance at PCGS imo broke that tie. No longer a need, or a double standard, to list the previous history. 2 for 2. Simple observation.
When the coin was listed in a problem holder, the seller also listed photos of it when it was in a problem free holder. It was supposedly "commendable" to disclose the coin's history.
Now that the coin is again in a problem-free holder, the coin's history of being graded as a problem (cleaned) coin by NGC is no longer disclosed by the seller.
Gotta love that double standard.
Exactly!!! The seller shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Inconsistent!!!
Why do grading companies get to have it both ways ?
Simple observation? Not simple at all since you missed the most obvious correlation.
The only truth that I see is that a number of forum faithful apparently have a double standard as well. Those without this double standard, feel free to cast a stone.
I think what you're missing is that I agree with you -- the history of a coin's previous grades is irrelevant to a current sale.
The picture of the coin in a problem free PCGS holder was provided when it was for sell in the problem cleaned NGC holder. It was a "convenient" piece of irrelevant historical information that was provided by the seller in a disingenuous way. That was my point.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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The picture of the coin in a problem free PCGS holder was provided when it was for sell in the problem cleaned NGC holder. It was a "convenient" piece of irrelevant historical information that was provided by the seller in a disingenuous way. That was my point.
I don't agree with all that. In my previous posts on this subject I've always stated that the past history is "critical" in determining the coin's "real" grade and market value. The one P63 grade didn't define the coin. Nor did the single NGC BB. The 3rd try has now brought about a 66% correlation which is actually rather good. I consider a coin fairly graded if it comes back the same grade from the TPG's 2 for 3 or 3 for 5. I don't pay much attention to the low or high grades, more so to the mean/median grade. I'd like to see all coins go in 3-5 times....with the caveat that this history is recorded and available to all subsequent buyers. Many have already been graded 3-5X. But that history has been lost. What I don't agree is that the current grade is what is given the most weight as to what a coin is worth, and not to the bell curve of the 3-5 submissions that may have preceded it. I want to know what all the experts though of the coin over "X" grading events....not just the very last one. The average of the grades is far more important than any single one of them.
The full history of the coin's grading is critical to knowing the true value. Who wants a high end 63 coin (paying MS64 money) that was tried 10X for MS64 and went 63 (or less) on the 9 other attempts? That this bust quarter was once in a MS63 holder before it BB'd at NGC was critical information. I'd want to know that as a potential buyer. And I would pay more if that was proven to me before the sale. I'd also like to know that NGC BB'd. But at this point with 2 PCGS events at MS63, I consider than almost irrelevant. Now if this coin went NGC63, PCGS BB, and then NGC63....I would consider the PCGS BB to be critical information as I feel their standards for "acceptable surfaces" are more strict. Yet, I don't expect a seller to divulge that as the coin went 2 for 2 at NGC. However, it would bring substantially less money than a PCGS 63.
The MS66 $10 Lib I mentioned earlier went 64, BB, BB, 66. With consecutive BB's from PCGS and NGC (that was my confirmation to give up on the coin). Would the new MS66 owner consider than previous history irrelevant? I hope not. I don't have to worry about the double standard as I shipped that coin off raw to the auction house to be sold raw. It was their decision to resubmit it....the loved it. And no, I didn't divulge the 64, BB, BB grading events to them. They didn't ask. Had they asked, I'd have told them as the coin was raw any ways. So the same service that BB'd then 66'd it. They were wrong, one way or the other.
Would be interesting if Julian sends this in to CAC, and it gets a sticker. Then we can revisit this thread for a 3rd time.
Double Standard: This board leans very heavily towards PCGS coins and their grades. Unless stickered, NGC coins are often perceived to be a grade lower....and not without some good cause I might add. So if true, why are a pair of PCGS 63 grading events now tossed out in favor of concentrating on an effectively "lower" NGC grading event of a BB? If we discount high NGC grades, why aren't we also discounting/ignoring low NGC grading events. If they aren't getting it right on the high end, why do we believe the low end in this example? Clue me in here. Note also in Julian's defense, he didn't even state that this coin was graded twice a 63 by PCGS. Isn't that hurting his own case? That doesn't fit in very well to the notion that some are calling that a double standard? It's not consistent either way as 2 grading events haven't been referenced.
And that can be construed as not understanding current market "grading" in totality. Trying to grade a choice unc bust quarter like it's a Morgan dollar or Washington quarter isn't going to help. You're ultimately buying a single "grading event"....not anything else. Most 19th century coins like this bust quarter probably have gone through 2-5 grading events over the past 30 years. Be certain, that when you are buying a slabbed coin, you are buying the latest in a sequence of grading events, and more than likely not the lowest.
Despite all the twists and turns this thread has taken, this paragraph rings true to me as pretty important...especially the last sentence.
Where is the appropriateness of using cyber-bullying in expressing a disagreement? Where is it appropriate in using an Internet message board to bash someone (or someone's wares or practices) over a sincere disagreement? Are the bashers under the mis-guided notion that they're doing a public service by "outing" this matter?
I really think too many of us need to take a step back and pay more attention to our own actions before paying so much attention to the actions of others. I don't expect an Internet message board will always be smiles and frolicking puppies, but on this Easter Sunday let's remember the Golden Rule...
Happy Easter, everyone!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The 1815 25c was sent to PCGS and is now graded MS63 in a Secure slab.
Julian was right that the coin would end up in problem free plastic.
Better? The coin in the Secure 63 plastic appears to me exactly as it did in the NGC unc/improperly cleaned holder.
It's a case of a wiping operation gone south to this observer.Look how dull the overall appearance of the coin is,now in a 63 Secure holder.To me this indicates that the unc. (no wear) piece,cleaned long ago when it was fashionable,has been lightly wiped fairly recently with the hope that some mint luster would appear.
Many collectors do not like dark coins regardless of the grade number,regardless of the coin's supposed rarity and dealers know this.
I once owned an 1891-O over horizontal O dime that was unc condition.All indications are that 1891-O over horizontal O dimes are extremely rare in unc. It was without problems except for being dark,even darker than the OP coin.One sees dashes instead of prices for 1891-O over horizontal O in all grades when checking Coin World magazine's price guide.I took it to a local B&M coin shop and let a highly respected dealer inspect it. He told me my coin was too dark for him,"ugly" was the word he used to describe my coin and he made no comment about it's rarity;he just shrugged his shoulders.To him it was just ugly and he knew that it would sit in his case for a long time,begging for a buyer if he acquired it from me.
I'll go out on a limb and say Rick (of Pawn Stars),after consulting with his on-staff expert,would be a buyer of the OP coin at about $4-5K,and not a penny more.
I don't have an opinion about how much money the owner is asking for his quarter.Ask moon money for your numismatic treasures if you want to.The police won't care.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
10-4,
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