His over-pricing of coins is pretty much across his entire Ebay inventory. True, he can ask whatever he wants, but he does ask for the moon on his auctions.
Here are some of his auctions for common Morgan Dollars, his price and the PCGS Price Guide Price. I think most of us can agree that the PCGS Price Guide is usually on the high side and he attempts to sell quite a bit above that.
If you look at his sold auctions, probably 95% were sold at best offer, so no way to see what prices he actually found the market willing to pay. But he does like to start high.
Originally posted by: TigersFan2 His over-pricing of coins is pretty much across his entire Ebay inventory. True, he can ask whatever he wants, but he does ask for the moon on his auctions.
Here are some of his auctions for common Morgan Dollars, his price and the PCGS Price Guide Price. I think most of us can agree that the PCGS Price Guide is usually on the high side and he attempts to sell quite a bit above that.
This coin could be on consignment. It might be in a MS64 holder in two years, cracked out by some forum schlub and we will all congratulate him for his genius.
Never met the man or have bought a coin from the man... but I think calling him unethical is a mighty big stretch.
Generally people with 40 years tenure in an industry don't get to 40 years tenure and associated with major industry leaders if there are ethical issues.
This coin could be on consignment. It might be in a MS64 holder in two years, cracked out by some forum schlub and we will all congratulate him for his genius.
Never met the man or have bought a coin from the man... but I think calling him unethical is a mighty big stretch.
Generally people with 40 years tenure in an industry don't get to 40 years tenure and associated with major industry leaders if there are ethical issues.
Exhibit A: Bernie Madoff
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I lie somewhere in the middle. I am a 100% believer that the seller has a right to set the price. Even if its a billion dollars. I know Julian pays top dollar first hand. He has every right to turn around and make a profit, whatever he determines it to be.
The line is crossed when problem coins are misrepresented. And I think that is certainly the case here. And the sheer number of problem coins in inventory is appalling.
"we should not hurt feelings, nor get our feelings hurt in matters of business."
Amen brother! I need to heed your advice. I get tore up some dealer shows me a coin I can't buy he selling some one else! Please tell me it is sold B4 I see it.
Originally posted by: DollarAfterDollar As was stated by OP. The coins owner can ask whatever he wants. My guess is that it wont sell at this price point. Not now, not in Julian's lifetime.
He's probably guessing the same thing and might just be why he almost always includes a "Make Offer" button.
Offer him 15% of his asking price and see if he'll bite.
On one of his modern errors, if you bid 15% of ask, you will be overpaying by 50%.
Not at all accurate. I will be delighted to purchase all that you have for at least 50% of my asking price.
Pardon me. I thought that you were referring to the 1999-w gold coins. I have over 13000 listings and cannot even think of changing the prices once they are posted, which is the reason for the MAO, as I evaluate all offers in relation to the current market.
Extremely incorrect. Your homestead quarter 004 (pump handle) ms 67 anacs are selling for under $100. You're asking $995.00. Your offer to me is foolish. I wouldn't take advantage of you.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Originally posted by: Broadstruck Julian is on the PCGS Board of Experts as someone the grading services turn to for advice.
Your all in disbelieve if you think EBay is a real place... It's like the land of Narnia and has no impact on the market.
Many dealers use eBay as just another advertising vehicle with no expectations of actually selling through this venue.
Last but not least this thread should POOF and a few of you deserve a time out as your breaking 1-2 of the rules.
You're living in a fantasy world if you say that Ebay isn't a real place and has no impact on the market. Ebay is the largest single marketplace of coins anywhere in the world. To say that Ebay has no impact on the market is ridiculous. It's has a lot of impact. And personally, I'd have paid a lot more for many of the coins in my collection had I purchased them at dealer prices than on Ebay. A PCGS coin is a PCGS coin and it's the same whether the dealer is selling it or whether it's being sold on Ebay at a lower price.
You and I have been around the block. I chuckle a wee bit when a painter, plumber, or lawyer says they've been in their business for 40 years, as if that makes them always right. Those sometimes can be the worst ones. I know, I've hired a few of them.
I chuckle a wee bit when a painter, plumber, or lawyer says they've been in their business for 40 years, as if that makes them always right. Those sometimes can be the worst ones. I know, I've hired a few of them.
PLUS 1
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
Not at all accurate. I will be delighted to purchase all that you have for at least 50% of my asking price.
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
It's interesting that none of the details coins I've stumbled across from Julian's store are acknowledged for their problems. Where are the, "Yeah, this one really is cleaned" coins?
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems that this seller has have VERY bad luck with TPGs.
I could make a birth year registry set out of pocket change.
Not at all accurate. I will be delighted to purchase all that you have for at least 50% of my asking price.
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
I will not buy this kind of coin blind. I have to see them. I am interested to know if you have ever examined this coin, rather than just going by listed prices. All coins are different. This coin is a beautifully toned Gem.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Not at all accurate. I will be delighted to purchase all that you have for at least 50% of my asking price.
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
I will not buy this kind of coin blind. I have to see them. I am interested to know if you have ever examined this coin, rather than just going by listed prices. All coins are different. This coin is a beautifully toned Gem.
But doesn't a coin need to be MS65 or higher to be a Gem? Your coin is only MS64+.
Originally posted by: brg5658 The fingerprint on the 1880-O adds to the appeal I suppose also? Looks pretty generically and "par for the course" toned for a Morgan to me.
He's stating the MS61 coin is Proof-like when the PCGS label doesn't have the "PL" designation. When selling a TPG coin, the seller sort of has to go with what the TPG says and not add attributes that aren't there.
Originally posted by: PTVETTER As I retread this there seems to be a lot of bashing going on and this is against the forum rules. I only hope this stops and gets back to the point I was trying to make, which is if you don't like the price of the coin just pass. These negative comments are uncalled for. Do not bash a person. Do not bash someone else's coin.
I don't think anyone is bashing anyone else. I think the discussion is centered around Ebay auctions that are (1) greatly overpriced or (2) having seller attributes that aren't on the slab label.
Ebay is a great venue for advertising one's wares. This is a place where a candle is held to many who do (advertise wares). And the thread is an absolutely perfect example of this, as it pertains to U.S. Coins and opinions, like we all have.
Wow. I suppose it's human nature to get all hot and bothered when something we want is priced higher than we want to pay. If we're going to start naming dealers who ask more than "reasonable" market prices for some of their coins the list is going to be quite long and include many active members of this forum. Coins are not fungible and we all understand paying over "book" for coins with remarkable attributes such as exceptional toning or strike. TPGs are not perfectly consistent in assigning grades or making the call between a genuine holder and a straight grade. The whole art of grading will always contain an enormous part of subjective opinion. We all accept this. Nobody complains when dealers step up and offer strong money when they really believe in a coin.
If the price seems too high, just don't buy that thing. Anyone who pays over face value to acquire a coin has to assume some responsibility. I firmly believe that it is possible for dealers and collectors to be ethical while making profitable buying and selling decisions. There is a huge divide between asking a strong price for a coin the dealer believes in and being deceitful or misleading.
Originally posted by: BryceM Wow. I suppose it's human nature to get all hot and bothered when something we want is priced higher than we want to pay. If we're going to start naming dealers who ask more than "reasonable" market prices for some of their coins the list is going to be quite long and include many active members of this forum. Coins are not fungible and we all understand paying over "book" for coins with remarkable attributes such as exceptional toning or strike. TPGs are not perfectly consistent in assigning grades or making the call between a genuine holder and a straight grade. The whole art of grading will always contain an enormous part of subjective opinion. We all accept this. Nobody complains when dealers step up and offer strong money when they really believe in a coin.
If the price seems too high, just don't buy that thing. Anyone who pays over face value to acquire a coin has to assume some responsibility. I firmly believe that it is possible for dealers and collectors to be ethical while making profitable buying and selling decisions. There is a huge divide between asking a strong price for a coin the dealer believes in and being deceitful or misleading.
Some questions...
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
Good point at the dishonesty of sellers removing problem coins from TPG holders and selling them raw without disclosing the problems.
But, if we go back to the coin that the OP posted, the seller is disclosing the coin is in a problem holder (honest) but also stating that the coin previously was in an MS63 holder (misleading & irrelevant). It's misleading because he's trying to imply that the TPG is wrong and that the buyer simply needs to resubmit the coin to the TPG to get the MS63 grade back. Likely the seller has tried many times to get a graded holder back because for that expensive of a coin, a seller has a much greater benefit to sell with a graded holder. It's irrelevant because the MS63 no longer applies to the coin because once it was removed from that holder, the TPG certification of grade no longer applies (PCGS rules).
I have sold quite a few PCGS graded coins that were undergraded in my opinion and sold at the correct grade level. I have also sold a few that were overgraded and lisetd as being overgraded!
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
Well said. Unfortunately, more dealers are selling plastic now and very few would disclose previous information. This dealer disclosed more info and set a price that he wants and he got blasted. Should him crack the coin out, fully disclose info and set the same price so that we can close this thread?
what makes me laugh about this thread is imagining i own the coin and i am shopping it around at a show as a 64. i would get laughed out of the building. i doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it.
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
what makes me laugh about this thread is imagining i own the coin and i am shopping it around at a show as a 64. i would get laughed out of the building. i doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it.
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
Coin never changed, labels (opinions) did. Coin speaks for itself - labels are opinions. You can change them all day, but the coin remains the same. Your comments provide proof that some collect coins and others collect labels.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Julian is a good guy and a great ambassador for the hobby.
Only wish I had been an adult with extra cash when Julian sold this coin.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Is it possible the PCGS MS63 quarter was ever so slightly cleaned after cracking it out and before it was submitted to NGC? Perhaps if it was the owner was looking for a slight upgrade with NGC by doing so.
(Want a basal-state, no-details silver dollar for eighty bucks? He's your guy, and has a couple of them.)
He has a huge selection, and dominates the eBay Love Token category (my eBay hunting ground). Has a few nice pieces, too, but the nosebleed pricing is annoying, because his stuff hangs around and around and around, cluttering the category.
Take your very generic, typical Seated dime love token with a monogram or even crude initials, and low to mediocre eye appeal, with minor issues. Stuff like that often goes for nine or ten bucks a whack; fifteen on a good day. He'll have it priced at $69.95 for the really low-end ones, and $129.95 for the average ones. His really decent love tokens will often have pricetags of $300-500+.
Which is not to cast any aspersions on his ethics. I actually did get him to wiggle a tiny bit on three pieces I wanted, and the deals went fine. He does include the Best Offer option, and can be brought to the table eventually, but drives an extremely hard bargain. You'll pay through the nose.
But that's a dealer's prerogative, I suppose. They've gotta make money. I just wish some were more realistic, is all.
what makes me laugh about this thread is imagining i own the coin and i am shopping it around at a show as a 64. i would get laughed out of the building. i doubt anyone would offer me MS money for it.
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
Coin never changed, labels (opinions) did. Coin speaks for itself - labels are opinions. You can change them all day, but the coin remains the same. Your comments provide proof that some collect coins and others collect labels.
Even OJ would be impressed by this defense team. No one is saying the label changed the coin. The polishing cloth did.
Even OJ would be impressed by this defense team. No one is saying the label changed the coin. The polishing cloth did.
Coin was dipped just as were many, many coins in no-problem holders. I see no signs of a mechanical cleaning on this coin. It will end up in a no problem holder.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
If only Julian's 50 years of knowledge that justifies this price to so many, could somehow follow the coin to the new owner so that he doesn't get the shaft at resale time....hmmmm JULIAN STICKERS!!!!!
Comments
Here are some of his auctions for common Morgan Dollars, his price and the PCGS Price Guide Price. I think most of us can agree that the PCGS Price Guide is usually on the high side and he attempts to sell quite a bit above that.
1885 Morgan MS64 - Asking $125 - PCGS $75
1921-D Morgan MS63 - Asking $99.95 - PCGS $72
1901-O Morgan - Asking $115 - PCGS $76
1882-O Morgan - Asking $150 - PCGS $67
His over-pricing of coins is pretty much across his entire Ebay inventory. True, he can ask whatever he wants, but he does ask for the moon on his auctions.
Here are some of his auctions for common Morgan Dollars, his price and the PCGS Price Guide Price. I think most of us can agree that the PCGS Price Guide is usually on the high side and he attempts to sell quite a bit above that.
1885 Morgan MS64 - Asking $125 - PCGS $75
1921-D Morgan MS63 - Asking $99.95 - PCGS $72
1901-O Morgan - Asking $115 - PCGS $76
1882-O Morgan - Asking $150 - PCGS $67
Note these are asking prices with a best offer option. And, according to at least one poster here, this makes him an "unethical" seller?
Enter his ebay listing number for sold items at this website to see what they actually sold for.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Never met the man or have bought a coin from the man... but I think calling him unethical is a mighty big stretch.
Generally people with 40 years tenure in an industry don't get to 40 years tenure and associated with major industry leaders if there are ethical issues.
This coin could be on consignment. It might be in a MS64 holder in two years, cracked out by some forum schlub and we will all congratulate him for his genius.
Never met the man or have bought a coin from the man... but I think calling him unethical is a mighty big stretch.
Generally people with 40 years tenure in an industry don't get to 40 years tenure and associated with major industry leaders if there are ethical issues.
Exhibit A: Bernie Madoff
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The line is crossed when problem coins are misrepresented. And I think that is certainly the case here. And the sheer number of problem coins in inventory is appalling.
*POOF*
Loses it's effect 5 days into a thread.
Amen brother! I need to heed your advice. I get tore up some dealer shows me a coin I can't buy he selling some one else! Please tell me it is sold B4 I see it.
As was stated by OP. The coins owner can ask whatever he wants. My guess is that it wont sell at this price point. Not now, not in Julian's lifetime.
He's probably guessing the same thing and might just be why he almost always includes a "Make Offer" button.
Offer him 15% of his asking price and see if he'll bite.
On one of his modern errors, if you bid 15% of ask, you will be overpaying by 50%.
Not at all accurate. I will be delighted to purchase all that you have for at least 50% of my asking price.
Pardon me. I thought that you were referring to the 1999-w gold coins. I have over 13000 listings and cannot even think of changing the prices once they are posted, which is the reason for the MAO, as I evaluate all offers in relation to the current market.
Extremely incorrect. Your homestead quarter 004 (pump handle) ms 67 anacs are selling for under $100. You're asking $995.00. Your offer to me is foolish. I wouldn't take advantage of you.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Your all in disbelieve if you think EBay is a real place... It's like the land of Narnia and has no impact on the market.
Many dealers use eBay as just another advertising vehicle with no expectations of actually selling through this venue.
Last but not least this thread should POOF and a few of you deserve a time out as your breaking 1-2 of the rules.
Julian is on the PCGS Board of Experts as someone the grading services turn to for advice.
Your all in disbelieve if you think EBay is a real place... It's like the land of Narnia and has no impact on the market.
Many dealers use eBay as just another advertising vehicle with no expectations of actually selling through this venue.
Last but not least this thread should POOF and a few of you deserve a time out as your breaking 1-2 of the rules.
You're living in a fantasy world if you say that Ebay isn't a real place and has no impact on the market. Ebay is the largest single marketplace of coins anywhere in the world. To say that Ebay has no impact on the market is ridiculous. It's has a lot of impact. And personally, I'd have paid a lot more for many of the coins in my collection had I purchased them at dealer prices than on Ebay. A PCGS coin is a PCGS coin and it's the same whether the dealer is selling it or whether it's being sold on Ebay at a lower price.
You and I have been around the block. I chuckle a wee bit when a painter, plumber, or lawyer says they've been in their business for 40 years, as if that makes them always right. Those sometimes can be the worst ones. I know, I've hired a few of them.
I chuckle a wee bit when a painter, plumber, or lawyer says they've been in their business for 40 years, as if that makes them always right. Those sometimes can be the worst ones. I know, I've hired a few of them.
PLUS 1
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
Here is the listing on eBay:
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
Here is the listing on eBay:
But if you buy it, you'll get $100 in Ebay Bucks!!!
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems that this seller has have VERY bad luck with TPGs.
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
I will not buy this kind of coin blind. I have to see them. I am interested to know if you have ever examined this coin, rather than just going by listed prices. All coins are different. This coin is a beautifully toned Gem.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Will you buy MS64+ 1880-O Morgans for 1/2 of your asking price on eBay, which means you will pay 17 Grand??? Hell, will you pay 17K for MS65's?? If so, I'll fly out ASAP.
I will not buy this kind of coin blind. I have to see them. I am interested to know if you have ever examined this coin, rather than just going by listed prices. All coins are different. This coin is a beautifully toned Gem.
But doesn't a coin need to be MS65 or higher to be a Gem? Your coin is only MS64+.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The fingerprint on the 1880-O adds to the appeal I suppose also? Looks pretty generically and "par for the course" toned for a Morgan to me.
Yep, fingerprint at 1 o'clock on the obverse.
Well, that's not often enough.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
MS61
MS62
He's stating the MS61 coin is Proof-like when the PCGS label doesn't have the "PL" designation. When selling a TPG coin, the seller sort of has to go with what the TPG says and not add attributes that aren't there.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I collect shrooms ....
Maaaan,
That sucker sure does look like a shroom, the 1st one. Your not kidding around when ya say you collect (Shrooms). AMAZING!!!!!
I only hope this stops and gets back to the point I was trying to make, which is if you don't like the price of the coin just pass.
These negative comments are uncalled for.
Do not bash a person.
Do not bash someone else's coin.
As I retread this there seems to be a lot of bashing going on and this is against the forum rules.
I only hope this stops and gets back to the point I was trying to make, which is if you don't like the price of the coin just pass.
These negative comments are uncalled for.
Do not bash a person.
Do not bash someone else's coin.
I don't think anyone is bashing anyone else. I think the discussion is centered around Ebay auctions that are (1) greatly overpriced or (2) having seller attributes that aren't on the slab label.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If the price seems too high, just don't buy that thing. Anyone who pays over face value to acquire a coin has to assume some responsibility. I firmly believe that it is possible for dealers and collectors to be ethical while making profitable buying and selling decisions. There is a huge divide between asking a strong price for a coin the dealer believes in and being deceitful or misleading.
Wow. I suppose it's human nature to get all hot and bothered when something we want is priced higher than we want to pay. If we're going to start naming dealers who ask more than "reasonable" market prices for some of their coins the list is going to be quite long and include many active members of this forum. Coins are not fungible and we all understand paying over "book" for coins with remarkable attributes such as exceptional toning or strike. TPGs are not perfectly consistent in assigning grades or making the call between a genuine holder and a straight grade. The whole art of grading will always contain an enormous part of subjective opinion. We all accept this. Nobody complains when dealers step up and offer strong money when they really believe in a coin.
If the price seems too high, just don't buy that thing. Anyone who pays over face value to acquire a coin has to assume some responsibility. I firmly believe that it is possible for dealers and collectors to be ethical while making profitable buying and selling decisions. There is a huge divide between asking a strong price for a coin the dealer believes in and being deceitful or misleading.
Some questions...
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
Good point at the dishonesty of sellers removing problem coins from TPG holders and selling them raw without disclosing the problems.
But, if we go back to the coin that the OP posted, the seller is disclosing the coin is in a problem holder (honest) but also stating that the coin previously was in an MS63 holder (misleading & irrelevant). It's misleading because he's trying to imply that the TPG is wrong and that the buyer simply needs to resubmit the coin to the TPG to get the MS63 grade back. Likely the seller has tried many times to get a graded holder back because for that expensive of a coin, a seller has a much greater benefit to sell with a graded holder. It's irrelevant because the MS63 no longer applies to the coin because once it was removed from that holder, the TPG certification of grade no longer applies (PCGS rules).
1. Should a dealer sell a coin with attributes that aren't accurate with the TPG label? (i.e. saying an MS64 coin is Gem or saying a coin is Proof-Like when the TPG doesn't attribute that... Doesn't Gem mean MS65 or higher?)
2. If a dealer disagrees with the TPG grading/attributes and wants to sell it otherwise, shouldn't the dealer remove the coin from the TPG holder and then be free to sell it with his own grading and attributes?
My opinion here is that if a dealer is selling a TPG coin, to be ethical, he really needs to sell it at the grade/attributes on the TPG label. Of course he can add his own descriptions like "attractive toning" or such that aren't attributes that the TPG uses.
A seller is more honest when he fully discloses previous TPG opinion. Too many ebay sellers remove problem coins from TPG holders and try to sell them without disclosing problems. This particular seller, in my opinion, is trying to provide full disclosure on the history of the coin's TPG opinions, while being clear on exactly what his own opinion is.
As a collector we should buy the coin and not the holder. Why should a seller sell the holder and not the coin?
Well said. Unfortunately, more dealers are selling plastic now and very few would disclose previous information. This dealer disclosed more info and set a price that he wants and he got blasted. Should him crack the coin out, fully disclose info and set the same price so that we can close this thread?
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
Coin never changed, labels (opinions) did. Coin speaks for itself - labels are opinions. You can change them all day, but the coin remains the same. Your comments provide proof that some collect coins and others collect labels.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
The "PCGS MS63 Coin" did. Because it is no longer in a PCGS MS63 holder.
^
The "PCGS MS63 Coin" did. Because it is no longer in a PCGS MS63 holder.
The label changed the coin?
I once got a gold buffalo back from the TPG with a label that incorrectly said "Gold Eagle." Coin still looked like a gold buffalo.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Only wish I had been an adult with extra cash when Julian sold this coin.
Perhaps if it was the owner was looking for a slight upgrade with NGC by doing so.
peacockcoins
(Want a basal-state, no-details silver dollar for eighty bucks? He's your guy, and has a couple of them.)
He has a huge selection, and dominates the eBay Love Token category (my eBay hunting ground). Has a few nice pieces, too, but the nosebleed pricing is annoying, because his stuff hangs around and around and around, cluttering the category.
Take your very generic, typical Seated dime love token with a monogram or even crude initials, and low to mediocre eye appeal, with minor issues. Stuff like that often goes for nine or ten bucks a whack; fifteen on a good day. He'll have it priced at $69.95 for the really low-end ones, and $129.95 for the average ones. His really decent love tokens will often have pricetags of $300-500+.
Which is not to cast any aspersions on his ethics. I actually did get him to wiggle a tiny bit on three pieces I wanted, and the deals went fine. He does include the Best Offer option, and can be brought to the table eventually, but drives an extremely hard bargain. You'll pay through the nose.
But that's a dealer's prerogative, I suppose. They've gotta make money. I just wish some were more realistic, is all.
^
The "PCGS MS63 Coin" did. Because it is no longer in a PCGS MS63 holder.
The label changed the coin?
I once got a gold buffalo back from the TPG with a label that incorrectly said "Gold Eagle." Coin still looked like a gold buffalo.
This still looks like an SAE as well.
Le the koolaide flow my friends since it appears that some believe whatever is on the plastic instead of what the coin is!
Grading is nothing more than a consensus opinion. Whether its a TPG with a guarantee or a coin dealer with a 14 day money back return privilege.
The name is LEE!
This right here people!!!
You're talking about this coin, right?
No, I was talking about the "IMPROPERLY CLEANED" coin in the NGC holder. The PCGS MS63 coin ceased to exist once it was cracked out.
Coin never changed, labels (opinions) did. Coin speaks for itself - labels are opinions. You can change them all day, but the coin remains the same. Your comments provide proof that some collect coins and others collect labels.
Even OJ would be impressed by this defense team. No one is saying the label changed the coin. The polishing cloth did.
Even OJ would be impressed by this defense team. No one is saying the label changed the coin. The polishing cloth did.
Coin was dipped just as were many, many coins in no-problem holders. I see no signs of a mechanical cleaning on this coin. It will end up in a no problem holder.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
About once a year I get to post my favorite foolish listing of his. The ole 1880-O Morgan that was in PCGS-64, he got it into NGC-64+, and is asking 34 GRAND!!!!! The last 2 MS65 1880-O Morgans at Heritage sold for 10K each. One in PCGS and one in NGC. Those coins are already MS65 and he wants 24K more for his 64+. Just goofy.
Here is the listing on eBay:
If only Julian's 50 years of knowledge that justifies this price to so many, could somehow follow the coin to the new owner so that he doesn't get the shaft at resale time....hmmmm JULIAN STICKERS!!!!!