An 1814 GTG Fresh Back from PCGS

maibockaddict

And after many YEARS of trials and tribulations, what did she grade?

CoinZip

AU

Edited to add: nice cracks and clashes

johnny9434

nice bust half

roadrunner

Trials and tribulations suggest it often BB'd or didn't get the grade you felt it deserved. Were the numerous die cracks, clash marks, and mint made flaws a problem? They shouldn't have been.



The obv alone looks AU50/53 while the reverse might be XF45/50.



I think either AU50 or 53 is a fair grade overall.

ricko

I would guess AU 50 - 53... Cheers, RickO

steveben

au53. pretty cool die clashing

fivecents

AU53

TopographicOceans

50

Sonorandesertrat

That is an interesting coin---funky surfaces. I would be interested to learn the details of what various graders thought of it. Looks 50-53, based on the images.

Boosibri

Agree with most, 50-53

Coin Finder

AU 55

amwldcoin

I'm not seeing any wear. 62 here!

USMarine6

There is a lot going on with that coin and I certainly like it. Maybe it's just that photos bit something looks off with the sufaces. I'm gonna go against the grain on this and say 62 maybe netted down to 58. I'm having a hard time finding the wear for a 50 53

kaz

53? Those clashes make that the coolest variety in the series imo.

BustHalfBrian

Sharp coin. My guess is AU58.

maibockaddict

Interesting spread of opinions!

For those curious, this came back from PCGS twice as AU details, once as Unc details, and came back from NGC as Unc details once.

Continue...

TPRC

58

lkeigwin

Originally posted by: amwldcoin

I'm not seeing any wear. 62 here!

I agree. But I think it might have been net graded to 58.



Congrats, Dave!

Lance.

ChangeInHistory

58-61

JRocco

Hey Dave

Nice coin. Not seeing any luster breaks except those caused by contact, probably not from wear.

Maybe netted to 58 as has been said. It looks like it should grade.

coinkat

Not sure- with Bust Halves it's never easy. I see the low as 55 and the high as 62. I would rather see this one in hand. While most may see that as a cop out answer, there are those coins that leave an uncertainty as to what the best grade should be. This seems to be one of those instances.

mercurydimeguy

The coin looks weird to me but it could be the photos.



If I had to make a gut call from looking at the images I'd say it was some kind of cleaning, not polished with a cloth but maybe a brush?



I am not being harsh but based on the photos I'd say it is UNC Details, cleaning, but if it's not cleaned, and the images are just funky, it's probably a 61 low end UNC coin.



Anyhow curious for the reveal



Edited to add: I just looked at the responses posted on this thread after posting my answer and see that you posted the grade/reveal already. Weird...but kind of confirms what I saw in the images.

lkeigwin

Originally posted by: coinkat

Not sure- with Bust Halves it's never easy. I see the low as 55 and the high as 62. I would rather see this one in hand. While most may see that as a cop out answer, there are those coins that leave an uncertainty as to what the best grade should be. This seems to be one of those instances.

So true...especially with this series and high AU to MS.



I avoided MS bust halves for a long time because I can't grade them worth a damn. It seems the pro's have their likes and dislikes.



They'll knock down a coin whose color doesn't meet expectations, bump a coin for what is perceived as original and "normal" toning, let a little rub slide or drop it to AU. And, in doing so, they hand out 61's and 62's for almost flawless examples and praise nice AU's with 63's and 64's.



It's enough to drive you away.

Lance.

lkeigwin

Edited to add: I just looked at the responses posted on this thread after posting my answer and see that you posted the grade/reveal already. Weird...but kind of confirms what I saw in the images.

We haven't yet heard. All we know is that it was BB'd four times and now, on its fifth submission, it seems to have graded problem-free.

Lance.

maibockaddict

Another part of the story, this coin was originally in an NGC 55 holder. After I had the coin for almost a year, it began to show signs of PVC contamination as spots began to appear on the coin. At the time I was not going to deal with sending the coin to NGC, so I cracked it out and let it sit in acetone for a week (yes it needed the whole week!!!). Besides I have heard too many horror stories about conservation practices...

Maybe a year or so later I finally got around to sending it in, first to PCGS....

mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

Edited to add: I just looked at the responses posted on this thread after posting my answer and see that you posted the grade/reveal already. Weird...but kind of confirms what I saw in the images.

We haven't yet heard. All we know is that it was BB'd four times and now, on its fifth submission, it seems to have graded problem-free.

Lance.

Hey Lance so what are your thoughts? In my mind if a coin gets BB'd for cleaning several times by both services and in fact at first look it appears to be cleaned, even if it gets straight graded one time does that make it a problem free coin?



Interesting paradox... Personally I have passed on many an obviously cleaned coin in straight graded TPG plastic. The coin has to come first, before the plastic, I think?

mannie gray

Surfaces look a bit off, to me it's a 61/62 that ended up in a 58 holder.

jughead1893

60

mr1931S

UNC details is what I'm seeing for this 1814 half.

roadrunner

On second look the obverse is pretty much free of wear even though there is some minor scuffing on the hair curls. The rusty dies, weakness in drapery lines, the mint made clash and die lines, dipping/light cleaning, etc. give it a "funky" look. The reverse does have friction/rub on the eagle's brow and upper right wing tip. But that kind of friction is often seen even up to the MS64 grade, sometimes on 65's.



It really comes down to what they netted all this out at. Looks like anything from a 53 to 62 is possible on this one. And if resubmitted yet again, odds are high it won't grade the same. An unusual and "difficult" coin.



Fwiw I cracked out a PCGS MS64 $10 Lib that was so mark free I felt it was a no brainer MS65. My resubmissions to PCGS and NGC both came back BB'd - altered surfaces. I couldn't give the coin away raw unless priced at MS63 money. It was sent off to auction in the raw state. They resubmitted it to NGC and it went MS66. 4 grades/opinions between TPG's and the only "agreement" was for BB's. The coin sold for MS65+ money. The kicker was that when I showed that coin around in the raw state, no expert gold dealers or graders could tell me exactly why they thought it bagged....just that it looked a tad funky or odd to them.

coin4sale

58-62

lkeigwin

Originally posted by: mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

Edited to add: I just looked at the responses posted on this thread after posting my answer and see that you posted the grade/reveal already. Weird...but kind of confirms what I saw in the images.

We haven't yet heard. All we know is that it was BB'd four times and now, on its fifth submission, it seems to have graded problem-free.

Lance.

Hey Lance so what are your thoughts? In my mind if a coin gets BB'd for cleaning several times by both services and in fact at first look it appears to be cleaned, even if it gets straight graded one time does that make it a problem free coin?



Interesting paradox... Personally I have passed on many an obviously cleaned coin in straight graded TPG plastic. The coin has to come first, before the plastic, I think?

My thinking aligns with yours. If it walks like a duck, etc. Often, you're "just not sure".



I've also decided it isn't particularly wise to tell the world about coins needing multiple submissions for problem-free grades. (No disrespect to Dave at all. He knows what he's doing and knows the grading game.) There are undoubtedly many thousands of coins with checkered pasts. All collectors see, generally, are the latest grade opinions.



But if we knew the sordid details about these questionable pasts, it would affect our opinions and willingness to buy and enjoy such coins, don't you think?

Lance.

CoinRaritiesOnline

50.

oih82w8

It looks real nice to me...AU58

maibockaddict

This thread sums up the coin perfectly!!!

FWIW this coin has the amount of marks on it that a nice Unc would have (pick the grade yourself for it is different on any given day anyway!)

PCGS gave this a 55 just like original NGC holder.

Luster is complete in the fields with NO wear whatsoever. Even the curl above the clasp has luster!

But the color freaks out the services. PCGS twice and NGC once gave it the questionable color designation, and PCGS also called it cleaned once. There are NO hairlines whatsoever. There clearly was some sort of acid treatment at one time then a retone, but the way it toned with the luster and the strike seems to be a bad combo.

Ahrensdad

My first inclination is AU58, but I think it could be a 62. I've seen much worse in ms holders.

USMarine6

OK so where does this coin go from here? Reconsideration or do you believe the coin is maxed out at 55?

maibockaddict

Originally posted by: USMarine6
OK so where does this coin go from here? Reconsideration or do you believe the coin is maxed out at 55?

I played enough for now, so it shall remain. But I could do something with it in the future. It gets expensive at $32+ a pop....

dizzlecc

Cool coin, the clash marks are awesome. As far as a grade, it has the look of an AU. I don't collect the series but my sense is they net grade a lot based on market acceptability (which keeps me away). It definitely has some damage on the reverse. It is a nice coin overall and has a lot going for it.

maibockaddict

Originally posted by: dizzlecc
Cool coin, the clash marks are awesome. As far as a grade, it has the look of an AU. I don't collect the series but my sense is they net grade a lot based on market acceptability (which keeps me away). It definitely has some damage on the reverse. It is a nice coin overall and has a lot going for it.

There is no damage on the reverse.....

lkeigwin

Originally posted by: USMarine6

OK so where does this coin go from here? Reconsideration or do you believe the coin is maxed out at 55?

Certainly not "reconsideration". That's used when you want to save the old slab if it doesn't upgrade, you don't mind paying a premium for an upgrade, and you're okay with a conservative decision made from looking through the holder.



"Regrade" would be the proper course, of course, with none of these downsides. But I wouldn't try it here regardless.

Lance.