Huge problem with grading standards

tonybingham

OK - This is going to sound like sour-grapes but I can assure you that it is not.



I recently sent several coins to PCGS for grading. I studied their grading sites and compared all of my coins to those on their sites that they had already graded. One coin is a 1891-S Morgan. The coin has a very frosty center with almost no major markings on either side. The field of the coin (both sides) is shiny and very reflective. However when it was graded, the coin received a MS63.



Now I've compared this coin to others that have been evaluated by PCGS and I'm not afraid to say that my coin is FAR superior, yet graded less and without the DPL or PL indicator. As you know this devaluates the coin by hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.



My question is: What can I do about this?



Thank for your attention

TopographicOceans

You would have to either send it in for a grade review, or crack it out and resubmit it.

A lot of people submit the same coin many times before it gets the "right" grade.

messydesk

Show it to several other people who deal with these coins frequently and get their opinion as to why it graded the way it did. Without even a picture, it's hard to comment further.

Coin Finder

Sorry I mean this:



RECONSIDERATION: Use the Reconsideration service if you would like to have your coin regraded without being removed from its current PCGS holder. Minimum grades are not accepted. There are four Reconsideration options (only one option is allowed per submission form). Learn More.



Fees: Grading fees will apply whether the coin upgrades or not. Coins that do upgrade will also be charged a Guarantee Premium based on the value of the coin.*



*The Guarantee Premium is equal to 1% of the value of the coin in its final grade. The value of the coin is determined by the PCGS Price Guide value for that grade or the Declared Value of the coin, if the Price Guide value is not available. The minimum amount for the Guarantee Premium is $5. PCGS reserves the right to make the final determination of the coin’s value.

abitofthisabitofthat

Welcome to the forum. It is very difficult to compare the grade of coins from photographs. There are many factors that go into grading, including strike, luster, contact marks, and eye appeal.

It would help if you could upload pictures of the coin(s).

What can you do about this? Bring the coins to a show, and ask a few dealers their opinion on the grade. I suspect that you may find out that some factor that you missed is limiting the grade to a 63.

Morgan dollars are generally considered one of the easier series to grade, and grading standards are fairly consistent (for the most part).

BryceM

Is it OK to assume that this is your first submission? Unfortunately, your situation is one that is pretty common for people who are new to the grading game (and sometimes even for people with plenty of experience). There are several potential scenarios here. Without additional information, most everyone here will assume that your coin was graded correctly. It's possible that it wasn't, but if not, it's probably not off by more than one grade, and the difference would only amount to $100 or so, not thousands. Photos would be very helpful here. Advice to keep submitting it again and again isn't likely to help you very much, since by far the most likely scenario is that it will return with the same grade. Let me share one of my own stories.



I acquired this 1947 Walker half dollar in an album set. It looked quite nice, so I submitted it (my photo).







It came back graded MS62. I took it to a large show and showed it to a couple friends of mine, one of whom is one of the largest national dealers in Walker half dollars. I covered up the grade and asked him to guess how it graded. He guessed MS66. When I showed the grade to him he said something that I can't type on a public forum.



I cracked it out and resubmitted it again as part of my yearly eight "free" submissions for being a CC member. I also got a TrueView, since it didn't cost any extra:







Guess what. The second time it also came back MS62. Was I ripped off? Are the graders blind? Nope. Looking closely at this coin there is evidence of mild rub, which can only be seen if you tilt it a certain way under the light. In reality, it probably should be graded AU58, but the graders "market graded" it up to MS62, which doesn't make much difference in value. They saw it as a really, really nice slider, with one technical issue that unfortunately severely holds back its value in the open market.



The most likely scenario here is that the graders saw something that you didn't. If you show it to someone who has been around the block a few times they can probably point out what the graders were looking at. Is there any way you can post a photo of your coin here?

291fifth

Before you spend any money on "Reconsideration" or "Crack out and resubmit" have some experienced collectors or dealers in your area look at the coin and get their opinion. Owners often tend to overlook the real reasons why a coin didn't get the grade they expected.

mercurydimeguy

Between AU58 and MS64 range coins could look very similar, but in a 65 or better it should be a different league of coin. Often, to me, the difference between a 64 and 65 is the easiest to tell. A 63 and a 65 are basically two totally different coins.



Just some input...

msch1man

What grade did you think it should have gotten?

Sonorandesertrat

Originally posted by: 291fifth
Before you spend any money on "Reconsideration" or "Crack out and resubmit" have some experienced collectors or dealers in your area look at the coin and get their opinion. Owners often tend to overlook the real reasons why a coin didn't get the grade they expected.

I agree

Sonorandesertrat

"The coin has a very frosty center with almost no major markings on either side. The field of the coin (both sides) is shiny and very reflective."

Is this coin white---does it look like it was dipped? Posting an image would be a big help here.

Kudbegud

This would be far less of an issue if the problem areas were described in determining the grade. On line at least because all that verbiage would not fit on the slab. Look up the certificate number and have a clickable "Graders Notes" available. You may still disagree but you would know the basis of the grade given.

tonybingham

I guess that poses another issue: I don't know how to post pictures in here. Thanks guys

mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: Kudbegud

This would be far less of an issue if the problem areas were described in determining the grade. On line at least because all that verbiage would not fit on the slab. Look up the certificate number and have a clickable "Graders Notes" available. You may still disagree but you would know the basis of the grade given.

Not possible since they only spend 10-30 seconds per coin, making notes would significantly increase this time. It would also hold people accountable to their opinion as it would be documented, so it's not going to happen.

Kudbegud

Originally posted by: mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: Kudbegud

This would be far less of an issue if the problem areas were described in determining the grade. On line at least because all that verbiage would not fit on the slab. Look up the certificate number and have a clickable "Graders Notes" available. You may still disagree but you would know the basis of the grade given.

Not possible since they only spend 10-30 seconds per coin, making notes would significantly increase this time. It would also hold people accountable to their opinion as it would be documented, so it's not going to happen.

It is possible but I agree in the current situation it wont happen. If ATS started doing it PCGS may not have a choice.



What if this was offered as an optional value added service for a cost? It would also add a level of security as an additional identification verification factor.

Rampage

Well, sadly we always feel our coins are the best ones out there. But when I comes down to it, it's your emotions that are acting up. Post a picture and go from there.

Kudbegud

Originally posted by: tonybingham

I guess that poses another issue: I don't know how to post pictures in here. Thanks guys

Check your Private Messages

ShadyDave

Originally posted by: Kudbegud
This would be far less of an issue if the problem areas were described in determining the grade. On line at least because all that verbiage would not fit on the slab. Look up the certificate number and have a clickable "Graders Notes" available. You may still disagree but you would know the basis of the grade given.

I've thought about this before and agree. I'd be happy to pay for the service ($5-$10) to get "notes" or "commentary" on why a coin I submitted received a certain grade since it would take time and money to implement this. I think a service like this could help teach people, calm them down if they think they were treated unfairly during the grading process and could help them improve their grading or venture out into new series...

This would provide education, a reason for a grade, improving relations between submitters and TPG's and an additional service for the TPG to generate revenue.

ShadyDave

Originally posted by: mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: Kudbegud
This would be far less of an issue if the problem areas were described in determining the grade. On line at least because all that verbiage would not fit on the slab. Look up the certificate number and have a clickable "Graders Notes" available. You may still disagree but you would know the basis of the grade given.

Not possible since they only spend 10-30 seconds per coin, making notes would significantly increase this time. It would also hold people accountable to their opinion as it would be documented, so it's not going to happen.

I don't think that this would be that big of an issue for grading companies. I believe they have a form to document the grade they pick and if they add a few check boxes to the formfor "weak strike" "weak luster" "visible friction" "excessive bag marks" "hard hits" "hairlines" or "negative eye appeal", that would help paint the picture for the person submitting.

There are many other industries who document opinions of professionals: medicine, financial, legal, real estate and automotive to name a few...

ebaybuyer

the cold reality is that TPGs are in the business of making money, the more times you submit a coin, the more money they make... for the same coin. I dabbled in submissions and quickly learned there is a cost vs benefit thresh hold. you have to determine for yourself if the $20 or so you spend for 10-30 seconds of a graders time is money invested or money..... well, spent on entertainment purposes

DontTellTheWife

Yes but if there are disagreements with a grade , can you imagine the disagreements with comments. Sure it would help some with open minds or true beginners, but an emotional owner may them completly disagree with grades and comments. A no win situation. And as one mentioned a coin with rub as a 58 but given a 62 to get it to a market value, if they mention the rub , then it's not uncirculated is it?

Beauty (and value) is in the eye of the beholder.

astrorat

Welcome to the forum.

First, the problem with grading standards is that there are no grading standards, only grading guidelines. If there were grading standards, then grades would be exact and reproducible. The term "standards" is used by convention, nonetheless.

Secondly, comparing a "live" coin with coin images may work well with most circulated coins, but for coins with grades above AU-50, it becomes more problematic. The subtle differences between MS grades can be lost in images. Also, the influence of eye appeal, a significant component of a coin's grade, is often missed with images.

Before you spend lots of time and money resubmitting your coin, try this. Cover the label on the coin's holder with a removable sticker. Take the coin to collectors or dealers who know how to grade and ask them for their opinion and an explanation why they grade the coin that way. Don't be offended if they disagree with your expectations of the grade as grading is opinion and by definition, subjective.

Good luck. Many of us started out where you are at now.

CoinRaritiesOnline

I agree completely with Astrorat and would only emphasize that you would be best served by opening your mind to the possibility that your own assessment of the coin is optimistic, and the grade conferred by PCGS is realistic.

grip

The field of the coin (both sides) is shiny and very reflective. However when it was graded, the coin received a MS63.





Not sure what you mean by "shiny" Like polished?

david3142

Well, this isn't the OP's coin obviously, but here's an 1891-S that looks like it could be PL on another day and is very clean for the grade. Maybe the graders just don't like this date/MM. This is also a 63 (but NGC)

HighRelief

PCGS is very subjective when it comes to grading PL and DMPL Morgan's. I purchased this 1885-S MS63 DPL for PL money thinking that it would cross MS63 PL at PCGS for sure. I was very disappointed when it came back non PL after being graded by NGC as DPL, go figure. Last year I took this coin with me to FUN and I had Don Willis look at it, he said try submitting again, so I did. Guess what, it came back again MS63 non PL so I am done playing the game with this one, it is what it is.

david3142

That's a great looking coin and certainly looks PL to me! I have an 85-S in an NGC 63PL holder. I like the coin, but like yours the reverse is not as deep as the obverse, although yours is deeper on each side compared to mine. That's just how they typically come. I didn't think it would cross before, now I know it won't!

ricko

Welcome aboard.... it seems, from your post, that you are new to grading, but making a great

effort to learn. It is very likely that your coin is properly graded.... though, you could resubmit

and test that - crack it out first. I would recommend you actually take a grading course (the ANA course is excellent), you will be surprised at how much you will learn. Cheers, RickO

BillJones

It's hard to comment on the issues you have raised without seeing pictures. As for the PL and DPL designations, I've found those to be subjective. It's hard to know what the graders will say qualifies. I've seen coins that I thought deserved it not get it and vice versa.