Can you tell the difference between MS-67 and MS-68?
Icollecteverything
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If someone took 10 slabbed Zincolns and covered the grades how confident would you be that you could seperate the 67's and 68's correctly?
The reason I am wondering is back in the early 80's my wife used to bring me original bank rolls of cents for me to look at. Many were rejected by me due to the usual spots and bubbling but I did manage to get some really nice ones which I put into plastic tubes and basically forgot.
Recently I took a peek at some 1983-P rolls and they are still really nice. PCGS gives them values of $80 in MS-67 and $1,200 in MS-68. Now logic would tell me the chance I have a 68 in there is very slight, but...........I can hope?
The interesting thing is I looked at their grading standards to see how they qualify each grade and I have a question. At MS-66 they say the coin can have a few minor marks/hairlines but not in focal areas and has to be a good strike. MS-67 it says virtually as struck w/minor imperfections and very well struck. Since they switch from "minor marks/hairlines" to "minor imperfections" what does that mean? Does imperfections relate only to as struck problems or is that still very minor bag marks ,scuffs ?
Also thought it was interesting they have + grades for all MS grades except for 69.
The reason I am wondering is back in the early 80's my wife used to bring me original bank rolls of cents for me to look at. Many were rejected by me due to the usual spots and bubbling but I did manage to get some really nice ones which I put into plastic tubes and basically forgot.
Recently I took a peek at some 1983-P rolls and they are still really nice. PCGS gives them values of $80 in MS-67 and $1,200 in MS-68. Now logic would tell me the chance I have a 68 in there is very slight, but...........I can hope?
The interesting thing is I looked at their grading standards to see how they qualify each grade and I have a question. At MS-66 they say the coin can have a few minor marks/hairlines but not in focal areas and has to be a good strike. MS-67 it says virtually as struck w/minor imperfections and very well struck. Since they switch from "minor marks/hairlines" to "minor imperfections" what does that mean? Does imperfections relate only to as struck problems or is that still very minor bag marks ,scuffs ?
Also thought it was interesting they have + grades for all MS grades except for 69.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
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To me an MS-67 walks on water. An MS-68 floats on water without the proper buoyancy devices apparent to the observer. The difference is too subtle for consistency.
What a collector should be able to do is correctly order the ten coins in terms of surface quality/minor marks. Then factor in the toning to make any adjustments. I have done this before, using Lincolns, Morgans, Saints, Liberty $20 coins, etc., that span 2 MS grades, and this was quite instructive.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If I'm a buyer, it's a 67.
Seriously though, I can't tell a 1-point difference at any grade level.
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no one can. they may claim they can and even offer a guarantee that they can, but they can't. it is too subjective.
Can you tell the difference between MS-67 and MS-68?
no one can. they may claim they can and even offer a guarantee that they can, but they can't. it is too subjective.
I would totally agree with this.
Sure - if the PCGS label said MS67 or MS68
Collectors don't want to know the grades of their coins they want to know the values so the grading companies assign a grade that can be easily compared to a price.
But two different coins that are MS-67 or MS-68 on each of their parameters would be easy to tell apart and collectors would rarely miss.
'83 cents are tough because they have numerous plating issues and various surface problems. Strikes tend to be good but marking is common also. If I had a nice roll I might send a few in because there are no mintr sets for this year which greatly limits the competition for high grades. Most Gems come from mint sets but not for 1983.
If my life depended on it? No if someone else is doing the grading.
To me an MS-67 walks on water. An MS-68 floats on water without the proper buoyancy devices apparent to the observer. The difference is too subtle for consistency.
Sounds about right...
An MS-68+ hovers above the water.
To me an MS-67 walks on water. An MS-68 floats on water without the proper buoyancy devices apparent to the observer. The difference is too subtle for consistency.
It seems much harder to walk on water than float on water. Even I can do the later of the two!
To me an MS-67 walks on water. An MS-68 floats on water without the proper buoyancy devices apparent to the observer. The difference is too subtle for consistency.
It seems much harder to walk on water than float on water. Even I can do the later of the two!
And with a helicopter, we could hover over water. Don't really see any point in it though.....unless I was being used for bait.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
These are grades that essentially exist only "in plastic". I would never pay 67 or 68 money for a coin that was raw no matter how nice it looked or how sure I was about its grade.
It's quite easy really, with what's been graded, the case has been made for what grades MS67 or MS68 or +, for that matter, a thousand times over. I could post hundreds of examples I have saved to my hard drive but the point is, all coins start out raw before they find their way into holders. Whether you could do it or not, someone else will and has. They will submit them over and over until they get the grade that is right for the coin, that meets their gut feeling. There are thousands of coins that don't belong in MS66 to MS68 holders but yet, they are there but how did they get there?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
These are grades that essentially exist only "in plastic". I would never pay 67 or 68 money for a coin that was raw no matter how nice it looked or how sure I was about its grade.
It's quite easy really, with what's been graded, the case has been made for what grades MS67 or MS68 or +, for that matter, a thousand times over. I could post hundreds of examples I have saved to my hard drive but the point is, all coins start out raw before they find their way into holders. Whether you could do it or not, someone else will and has. They will submit them over and over until they get the grade that is right for the coin, that meets their gut feeling. There are thousands of coins that don't belong in MS66 to MS68 holders but yet, they are there but how did they get there?
Leo
Are you assuming that I would pay 67 or 68 money for a coin just because it was in a 67 or 68 holder from a major TPG? Actually I wouldn't since I don't buy into the mega-premiums attached to those grades. Collectors who are obsessed with have the highest graded examples and have the money to pay for them are welcome to them.
To me an MS-67 walks on water. An MS-68 floats on water without the proper buoyancy devices apparent to the observer. The difference is too subtle for consistency.
It seems much harder to walk on water than float on water. Even I can do the later of the two!
Yeah! But can you float on water clad in copper nickel?
Yes, I can tell the difference! If it's in blue plastic, it's MS67, and if it's in white plastic, it's MS68!
Nice
Yeah! But can you float on water clad in copper nickel?
Make it gold and I'll give it a shot!
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What we all should know is that technically an ms 68 coin should have "no" marks what so ever. The higher grades are reserved for perfect surfaces AND outstanding strike and eye appeal. That's why you don't see ms 69 and ms 70 coins in many series. Having all three components (mark free, strike and eye appeal), those were the coins distributed to kings and past Mint Directors. They never hit the bin.
I think I did pick the hardest grades to figure out. Probably most people have at least a good idea what a 65 is, and a 70 is supposed to be perfect in everything, the grades inbetween a really tough.
There must be a demand though if people will pay $1,200 for a 68 instead of $80. for a 67.
Now I'm wondering if I ever checked my 1983 rolls for the doubled die.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Lance.
Jeff
These are grades that essentially exist only "in plastic". I would never pay 67 or 68 money for a coin that was raw no matter how nice it looked or how sure I was about its grade.
It's quite easy really, with what's been graded, the case has been made for what grades MS67 or MS68 or +, for that matter, a thousand times over. I could post hundreds of examples I have saved to my hard drive but the point is, all coins start out raw before they find their way into holders. Whether you could do it or not, someone else will and has. They will submit them over and over until they get the grade that is right for the coin, that meets their gut feeling. There are thousands of coins that don't belong in MS66 to MS68 holders but yet, they are there but how did they get there?
Leo
Are you assuming that I would pay 67 or 68 money for a coin just because it was in a 67 or 68 holder from a major TPG? Actually I wouldn't since I don't buy into the mega-premiums attached to those grades. Collectors who are obsessed with have the highest graded examples and have the money to pay for them are welcome to them.
Was the basis to my post.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I would guess the top is the 68, the bottom coin the 67. Bet I got it wrong though.
Jeff
+2 Because of the ding by the tie in 2nd coin, right?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Sure - if the PCGS label said MS67 or MS68
Nice!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I would guess the top is the 68, the bottom coin the 67. Bet I got it wrong though.
Jeff
+2 Because of the ding by the tie in 2nd coin, right?
The ding just to the left of the tie on coin #2, the ding on the chin of coin #2 and I guess most of all I just find the 1st coin more attractive (could be the surfaces which appear nicer drawing me to it)...but then again these are two pictures and not in our hands. If my life depended on it, well, I'd probably be dead!! But maybe we got it right??
Jeff
Edit: Does coin #2 appear to have a stain or something else going on in the shoulder area?
I would guess the top is the 68, the bottom coin the 67. Bet I got it wrong though.
Jeff
+2 Because of the ding by the tie in 2nd coin, right?
The ding just to the left of the tie on coin #2, the ding on the chin of coin #2 and I guess most of all I just find the 1st coin more attractive (could be the surfaces which appear nicer drawing me to it)...but then again these are two pictures and not in our hands. If my life depended on it, well, I'd probably be dead!! But maybe we got it right??
Jeff
Edit: Does coin #2 appear to have a stain or something else going on in the shoulder area?
There is a mark on the shoulder of coin #1 but I doubt anyone would bet their life on it? Although a few took the plunge when the market collapsed in 1929. And there are other examples today due to debt but most folks see that their bills are paid, savings in tack and use expendable funds on hobbies. I think if I became aware someone was about to mortgage their house to buy a coin from me, I would not sell to them. I bring this all up because I read the title earlier and thought it was a bit of a stretch to make such an ultimatum. I agree with you, I wouldn't be dead because of debt.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
http://www.shieldnickels.net
One is a 67, the other is a 68. Which is which?
Lance.
The D is the 68. But I wouldn't pay 68 money for any coin. Was tempted when I was doing Merc registry set but never pulled the trigger and am
happier for it
If someone took 10 slabbed Zincolns and covered the grades how confident would you be that you could seperate the 67's and 68's correctly?
The reason I am wondering is back in the early 80's my wife used to bring me original bank rolls of cents for me to look at. Many were rejected by me due to the usual spots and bubbling but I did manage to get some really nice ones which I put into plastic tubes and basically forgot.
Recently I took a peek at some 1983-P rolls and they are still really nice. PCGS gives them values of $80 in MS-67 and $1,200 in MS-68. Now logic would tell me the chance I have a 68 in there is very slight, but...........I can hope?
The interesting thing is I looked at their grading standards to see how they qualify each grade and I have a question. At MS-66 they say the coin can have a few minor marks/hairlines but not in focal areas and has to be a good strike. MS-67 it says virtually as struck w/minor imperfections and very well struck. Since they switch from "minor marks/hairlines" to "minor imperfections" what does that mean? Does imperfections relate only to as struck problems or is that still very minor bag marks ,scuffs ?
Also thought it was interesting they have + grades for all MS grades except for 69.
I've been through this once, but with large and small date 1960 D Lincoln's. A friend bought literally 3-4 ammo cans of these in rolls put back from the day. The prices in 67 are quite hefty, so we decided to take a shot.
We had a whole dining room table spread out with different trays of organization, each with continuing levels of elimination. Head mounted magnifiers for quick acquisition of focused coin! Literally spent hours culling out coins with spots, hits, strike issues and low luster. Boiling down, thousands of perfect coins to what we thought were the best 50 and sent them to PCGS as a bulk submission. A minimum grade of 66 was specified. Two were graded 66 and the rest sent back. Disappointing. It was a long shot and one I don't regret taking but won't keep doing it either.
They do exist in these holders, so it is possible I guess.
Until true standards are set, and computers employed to grade, subjectivity will rule the grading
business... everything from light, preferences (for eye appeal), mental condition of grader (i.e.
hungover, sexually satisfied, fighting with wife etc.) exhaustion etc., etc., etc..
Cheers, RickO
Yes, I can tell the difference! If it's in blue plastic, it's MS67, and if it's in white plastic, it's MS68!
Zing!
The name is LEE!
Maybe I should have asked if anyone has the confidence to buy a raw 83 cent for $500 that they are sure is a 68. If you are right you make an easy $500 and if you are wrong you lose $500.
I agree with the other comments about the 1943 cents that the first one looks nicer unless the vertical lines on the reverse are on the coin and not the plastic. Both of those coins shown in large pics show how tough it is to get one graded up there in the stratosphere. That toned Jefferson is also a beauty.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
and even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
both NGC and PCGS have demonstrated that they cannot replicate their opinion with any regularity across the Mint State grade range, trusting them to be correct on the highest end is not the wisest thing to do. JMHO, of course.
OINK
It's true...under certain circumstances. One person can do it....a bonafide expert in that area and doesn't have to knock heads with 2 or 3 other graders, after viewing 1,000 coins that same day. While logic suggests 3-4 graders should give us a more accurate and repeatable grading, my experiences over 30 years say that doesn't really happen. But, if you could get the exact same group of graders who saw the coin the first time around, odds are decent they would see it the same way the next time around with 75-80% accuracy. But graders DO change places. Variations in time of day, day of the week, show grading, etc. all toss in more complexity that can derail repeatability.
One top grader with killer skills can nail a 67 vs. 68 the vast majority of the time in a fairly simple series like a common date BU Morgan dollar. JA, HRH, JH, NJCC, WM, CB, JD, RC, etc. are some of the people who can probably do that. Give me 4 of those guys to grade, send in your gem coins as many times as you like, and I bet they could remain 85-90% consistent....about the best you can do. If you allow them to discuss the grade before deciding, it might go a bit higher. But that's not the workings of the TPG. A PCGS MS68 Morgan is a much different looking animal than a PCGS 67. It's night and day imo. I recall the first PCGS grading contest was won by dealer JH with a score of approx 85%. That's darn good. And he was reviewing coins he hadn't even graded himself. He was trying to "guess" what the TPG's called them.
Once you introduce toning, coins with fairly wide strike differentials, and other factors, getting agreement on the MS67 or MS68 level is a lot harder. 19th century gem type is a lot more difficult than Morgan dollars. And the bigger the coin is, the more consistency that seems to result. Consistency on gem 3c silvers and half dimes seems tougher imo. I'll let Wondercoin and others comment on the ability to repeat grading events for the 1932-current era.
I'd be disappointed if an agent dealer I was hiring for auction couldn't achieve what's in the quote above. If they can't, you shouldn't be hiring them...other than to simply raise their paddle on your behalf and physically execute a bid. I have an easier time differentiating between a MS67 to MS68 seated quarter than VF35 to XF40.
I have purchased or passed on almost all of the high grade early dollars - until you've seen them all, you just don't have the data to assign the grade
I put my money on it all the time. My life? Nah
I have purchased or passed on almost all of the high grade early dollars - until you've seen them all, you just don't have the data to assign the grade
Bruce, are you ranking these early dollars or you are grading them
yes I can
Ayyye. I believe it!