Scary good Fake 1 oz gold Royal Canadian Mint bars in Assay cards

Pokermandude

The specifications were almost dead on. Approximately 1.8-1.9mm thick instead of the proper 1.66mm. Weight dead on at 31.15 grams. The font on the bar looks a little off. Out of the packaging it looked a bit strange, that "plated" look that is hard to describe.



The assay cards are very well done, but a little off. They don't stack into each other as they should, the bar is raised a bit too high in the card as well.



Despite these factors, these are scary good fakes. If I didn't have my precious metals testing machine, I may well have gotten burnt on these.



All pictures below are of the fake bar and packaging.

GRANDAM

In the bottom photo the raw coin is sitting on the machine.



It says Gold-Pure then [ ]



Is there supposed to be a number inside the brackets representing the purity?

BAJJERFAN

Any pics of an authentic bar for comparison?

CuKevin

Originally posted by: GRANDAM
In the bottom photo the raw coin is sitting on the machine.

It says Gold-Pure then [ ]

Is there supposed to be a number inside the brackets representing the purity?

I was wondering the same thing.

OPA

weight right on? Did your tester indicate the metal composition of the bar?

BAJJERFAN

Originally posted by: OPA

weight right on? Did your tester indicate the metal composition of the bar?

IIRC you would test specifically for each metal you thought would be there. If you checked for gold and it said 90%, it won't tell you at the same time what the other 10% is/was.

Pokermandude

This tested is basically just a Yes/No answer to is it "Metal X and purity Y". It has presets for pure gold, 22k gold, 90% gold, .9999 silver, .999 silver, 92.5% silver, 90% silver, as well as pure platinum, palladium and rhodium. It uses "electromagnetic waves" to somehow compare the sample to the presets.



On an authentic piece a digital bar shows up within the brackets. On a sample that is somewhat close to the preset, a bar will appear a little ways outside the brackets. In the case of an arrow on the side, it shows that it is measuring something, but that the sample isn't anywhere close to that preset.



As another example, the machine reads .999 silver within the bracket of the .999 silver preset, but generally reads pure copper as a digital bar a few spaces outside the target brackets. Sometimes a reading just outside the brackets can also mean the sample matches, but isn't reading correctly, such as a dirty coin, or a high relief/unlevel piece where the probe isn't reading only the sample.



Thus this machine isn't a true XRF/etc which will tell you what it is. It is simply a yes/no/maybe.

GRANDAM

Can you lay a good .999% gold coin and then a good .999 silver coin on the machine and show us the read out?

Meltdown

Originally posted by: GRANDAM
In the bottom photo the raw coin is sitting on the machine.

It says Gold-Pure then [ ]

Is there supposed to be a number inside the brackets representing the purity?

I believe tt's a black "digital bar" that needs to fall in-between those brackets for the metal content to be trusted

mariner67

Lots of jumbo jumbo.

What I see is everything of high value with low volume is suspect.

End of stacking these.

ricko

Thanks for the detail... risky out there.... seems like the effort going into these fakes is

almost as 'expensive' as the real product...... Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN

Originally posted by: Pokermandude

This tested is basically just a Yes/No answer to is it "Metal X and purity Y". It has presets for pure gold, 22k gold, 90% gold, .9999 silver, .999 silver, 92.5% silver, 90% silver, as well as pure platinum, palladium and rhodium. It uses "electromagnetic waves" to somehow compare the sample to the presets.



On an authentic piece a digital bar shows up within the brackets. On a sample that is somewhat close to the preset, a bar will appear a little ways outside the brackets. In the case of an arrow on the side, it shows that it is measuring something, but that the sample isn't anywhere close to that preset.



As another example, the machine reads .999 silver within the bracket of the .999 silver preset, but generally reads pure copper as a digital bar a few spaces outside the target brackets. Sometimes a reading just outside the brackets can also mean the sample matches, but isn't reading correctly, such as a dirty coin, or a high relief/unlevel piece where the probe isn't reading only the sample.



Thus this machine isn't a true XRF/etc which will tell you what it is. It is simply a yes/no/maybe.

I assume the bar needed to be removed from the card in order to be tested.

Pokermandude

The machine does test through plastic. I've used it on assay cards, capsules, and hard PCGS/NGC slabs.




Here is a photo of how a 1 oz .9999 gold maple tests, even through a capsule:







And here is another fake piece, a fake/oversized "gold maple leaf" made of who knows what.

GRANDAM

So, can you test a coin thru a slab?

woody3882

Now the big question, do you mind telling everyone where you bought it and what you paid, so we don't

Thanks

tincup

Pokermandude, I see that vendor now has a new bullion wand that can detect a short distance below the surface. Do you have that item... and if so, does it seem to work pretty well?

Pokermandude

As I mentioned, yes it does work through plastic, including slabs.




The bullion wand is the larger/deeper penetrating one. Yes I do have it, and it works well. It's for thicker bars such as 1 kilo/50oz/100oz. The lower model I believe comes with the smaller/thinner pentrating wands. These also work very well for things that are thin, such as 1g gold up to 1/4 oz.

cohodk

Without further evidence I'm skeptical of the evidence provided by the OP. I would like to see detailed photos of real vs fake and a better testing method.

derryb

Originally posted by: cohodk
Without further evidence I'm skeptical of the evidence provided by the OP. I would like to see detailed photos of real vs fake and a better testing method.

I'm not clear what is evidence here and what is not. Just cut it in half to see what's inside.

GRANDAM

Originally posted by: derryb

Originally posted by: cohodk

Without further evidence I'm skeptical of the evidence provided by the OP. I would like to see detailed photos of real vs fake and a better testing method.

I'm not clear what is evidence here and what is not. Just cut it in half to see what's inside.

------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is a good point,,,, if the bar is fake cut it in half and show us the insides. If fake it is worthless anyway.



If it is real it still can be melted,

guitarwes

The person selling these fake bars (knowingly or unknowingly) might not have wanted to have them cut in half. As bad as I hate to admit it, I can see a real big stink brewing if the shop owner came around the corner from the back of the shop with one of the seller's bars cut in half without his permission.



How did you take this many pics of these bars Pokermandude? Where did you get that verifier?

Pokermandude

The company who makes this tester is called Sigma Metalytics.



I am a vest pocket dealer. I met with a man looking to sell multiple of these gold bars. He had purchased them from someone privately, he had removed one bar from the packaging in order to weigh and measure it himself. The thickness was a bit too much, but he didn't see that as a concern.



I didn't have any cutting or acid testing tools with me at the time. If I am able to meet with him again, I will bring them and see if he'll allow me to acid test and/or cut one in half to see what's inside.

guitarwes

Thanks for the info. I looked up that machine, I guess the first time you don't get burned on buying a bunch of fake coins/bars makes the purchase price worth it. As in this case.

Coin Finder

I really appreciate these threads, I educate my bullion dealer friends to help save them any trouble. we have to watch out for each other. Thanks!

DrBuster

Immediately the font on the front looked wrong to me. But i think that's from seeing a kitco thread about these recently if memory serves. The card and package alone would fool most though i think.

PerryHall

Originally posted by: cohodk

Without further evidence I'm skeptical of the evidence provided by the OP. I would like to see detailed photos of real vs fake and a better testing method.

Agree. Many times on these forums I've seen authentic coins declared as being counterfeit.

Pokermandude

I was at my bank safe deposit box today. I took photos of one of my real bars. Here are composite photos showing the real bar on the left, with photos of the fake bar on the right. I didn't snap a picture of the weight in packaging of the real bar, but that figure is 39.0 grams.



A shame the lighting was so poor when I took the photos of the fakes. There are differences. The biggest thing on the bar itself that sticks out is that the writing on the real bar has a more laser etched look. The packaging there are multiple things wrong with, including how high it is raised from the level of the certificate, the bowing of the plastic, even the weight of the plastic is too light compared to the real deal.



I'm still working on meeting with this guy again for some side by side photos and perhaps an acid test plus snipping one in half.

cohodk

Thanks pokermandude. Those pics help.

DrBuster

Font on them is really noticeable sideXside, on the bar and on the back of the assay. The fake ones always seem fatter/chunkier with the lettering.

RyansRust

Thanks for the side by side. Easiest for me is the bubble height and leaf on front right middle. Tip showing vs. hidden.

ultrabullion

I bought what I thought was a real RCM gold bar 1 oz, what I got was only a few serial numbers away from the OP's. I used a densimeter to test it and cut the thing in half. How do I upload the pics?

ultrabullion

Notice the serial number is close to the OP's











The center of the bar looks like a red ceramic with fine black metallic and gold powder (probably tungsten & gold)











When you clink the metal together it literally sounds like a ceramic



Here's the densimeter test:











83.8% or 20Kt gold means it has the density like gold, but on a 24kt bar this should not be that low, it's fake!







Now the shoddy packaging:

mariner67

Wow, thanks ultra bullion….the pics are great.
This really, in my mind, means the end of ever buying any bars as far as I am concerned. JMHO.
May I ask….where or from whom did you buy this?

cohodk

Thanks for the updated pics.

derryb

Originally posted by: Pokermandude

Note the different "texture" on the center logo on the reverse of the left pic of the authentic bar. This is found on authentic RCM gold bars and the RCM 10 oz. silver bars. This is your marker for a good bar.

Good to hear that the Sigma PMV saved a buyer.

ultrabullion

The ebay id is: PMNINVEST (SELLS FAKE GOLD AND SILVER)

derryb

Originally posted by: ultrabullion
The ebay id is: PMNINVEST (SELLS FAKE GOLD AND SILVER)

Seller ID is invalid. How about a link to one of his listings.

Pokermandude

http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBa...NVEST&ftab=AllFeedback