I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
So if the coin was a Secure PCGS coin, would they be able to catch it before they slab the fake coin. I mean if PCGS scanned the original coin into a Secure holder and someone cracked that coin out and made a die transfer and then sent in the fake coin, would not PCGS recognize the coin as a fake since the original coin was in there data base.
Does NGC have a Secure system in place to help stop this from happening.
I think you massively overestimate what the "Secure" system at PCGS actually does.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
This is why I don't ever expect to own a 1916-D Mercury Dime, a coin I'd really like to have. The high grades are out of my price range, but I don't trust the low grade ones as being genuine regardless of what any TPG says. When a coin in G4 sells for $800-1000 it's very lucrative for counterfeiters to make it and wear it down to that grade, obliterating the markings that can identify it as a fake. I expect that many counterfeit 1916-D Mercury Dimes have been graded by the TPGs.
So, for the average person, who "told to buy the coin, not the holder" if the counterfeit can get past 3 graders at NGC or PCGS, and the average person is looking at a _______________ fill in the blank coin at a coin show, 1 of 1000 in a dealer display, what chance does the Joe Average person have of not being taken, assuming the dealer is equally clueless?
It is the classic poison M&M. You are REALLY hungry and craving chocolate, and their is a bowl with 1,000,000 M&M's, but 10 are really cyanide pills, and any 1 of those 10 will kill you. Would you eat an M&M ?
I hear stories of the antique toy business, depression era pressed glass, galle glass, tea cadies, all destroyed by fakes from China.
When silver and gold were heading into the stratosphere, it seemed every other post on a more PM oriented site were FAKE BARS, FAKE ROUNDS, etc. DRILL EVERY BAR. Although the POS is 1/3 that amount, I am sure the counterfeiters can still make money, but I do not see those posts anymore. Are the counterfeits so good at this price range, people do not even check them anymore?
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist. The recent advances in technology have led to near perfect copies of TPG holders using 3-D printers, lasers to make exact duplicates of real coins etc. These crooks are sooner or later detected and revealed, but, the penalties doled out to them are nil, if done in China. US copyright and counterfeiting laws need to be adhered to in China or this type of stuff will continue. We are fortunate our host and NGC are vigilant and can easily trace from whom the counterfeit submission orignated from. The problem is, the Government must start cooperating by demanding that China arrests these known counterfeiters of US coins.holders.......JMO
i am running certs now to cross-reference with ebay listings/slab images/certs etc and now see some confirmations of many coins being in the same submission. not saying any are fake, just reporting findings and coins that are high-risk.
the 54-o huge o and 1871 pattern led me in that direction.
will continue to update my post which for most of you will be several posts above this one. for those with posts most recent first, it will be several below this post.
edited to add, it would be nice if someone would try to track down any of these certs from auction firms to see if we can get some host coin images for comps. it is the next step and of course share them here or send to me and i will do comps/updates.
I checked a submission that had the 1871 proof pattern dollar. There were some very high value coins in that submission. This operation would need to have some mighty powerful equipment to make a transfer die from a proof coin. If there was an estimated population of 12, I see no realistic way to make a few hundred of something and disperse without getting caught.
I checked a submission that had the 1871 proof pattern dollar. There were some very high value coins in that submission. This operation would need to have some mighty powerful equipment to make a transfer die from a proof coin. If there was an estimated population of 12, I see no realistic way to make a few hundred of something and disperse without getting caught.
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit.
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit. Lance.
Given how much the US government cares about copyright and the DCMA, they should also press other countries to coordinate with the HPA.
Originally posted by: ArizonaRareCoins The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit. Lance.
If the grading companies could not tell the coins we fakes when they had them in their hands, who found out that they were not real ??? The grading companies should spend more time examining coins, maybe a few minutes at least. Weigh them, measure them etc. etc. I mean $ 30-50 for 3 seconds is crazy !!!!
Originally posted by: ShadyDave That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
more or less. read the thread.
ngc has on their version of this theead with some good links/info. .
I wouldnt really call this addressing the issue... further they (PCGS) said they would be getting back on this issue but I havent seen anything else then this post...
Originally posted by: PCGSCSManager
Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.
Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.
That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
more or less. read the thread.
ngc has on their version of this theead with some good links/info.
.
I wouldnt really call this addressing the issue... further they (PCGS) said they would be getting back on this issue but I havent seen anything else then this post...
Originally posted by: PCGSCSManager
Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.
Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.
compare and note the Post Mint marks, on both coins, on the obverse at 6 and 9 O'Clock and the reverse at 1 and 6 O'Clock etc. clearly both coins came from the same die made from a real coin that had circulated
fwiw, i've done a nice update to my big post in this thread with updates of certs, cross-references, pics, links, articles, statements, etc. for those that want more to view.
should collectors be the ones worried or should it be TPG stock holders ? will be interesting to see how PCGS responds to this, no TPG is a substitute for knowing what you collect, seems that may be an expensive lesson for those that are slaves to the plastic
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
should collectors be the ones worried or should it be TPG stock holders ? will be interesting to see how PCGS responds to this, no TPG is a substitute for knowing what you collect, seems that may be an expensive lesson for those that are slaves to the plastic
The problem is that many who do know what they collect are being fooled as these are die transfers. In other words they look just like the real thing.
was it the TPG's that discovered this or serious collectors ? serious collectors are tough to fool. I understand that the TPG's are only looking at the coins for a few seconds ... while serious collectors spend hours with their coins
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
I just came accross this post a few days ago and it is a real eye opener. I did not realize that the die-transfer process could be so effective in producing counterfeit coins. Perhaps someone who is more familiar can explain how a coin die of hardened steel can be impressed with a softer metal such as silver? And if the source coins is destroyed in the process, then this would seem to limit the process to "medium" value coins that are in circulated grades. It would seem that few of these counterfeits are MS or PR graded coins?
Post number 99 just to tee up a very good discussion that needs to continue.
The die for counterfeit production is fabricated using an engraving machine, onto which the host coin is mounted. This is somewhat like the Janvier process.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Comments
Can you post the dates and varieties?
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
couldn't make "real" holders too leaving only the cert # to be a concern
surely they could make "real" labels if making transfer dies
look for cert #'s without an image and bingo
give me a professional coin that has a trueview and i'm happy
goodluck on making a transfer die copy that will match a max image trueview
even if you make a good holder and label
So if the coin was a Secure PCGS coin, would they be able to catch it before they slab the fake coin. I mean if PCGS scanned the original coin into a Secure holder and someone cracked that coin out and made a die transfer and then sent in the fake coin, would not PCGS recognize the coin as a fake since the original coin was in there data base.
Does NGC have a Secure system in place to help stop this from happening.
I think you massively overestimate what the "Secure" system at PCGS actually does.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Also fake?
This is crazy!
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Now to shut down the source.... Cheers, RickO
It is the classic poison M&M. You are REALLY hungry and craving chocolate, and their is a bowl with 1,000,000 M&M's, but 10 are really cyanide pills, and any 1 of those 10 will kill you. Would you eat an M&M ?
I hear stories of the antique toy business, depression era pressed glass, galle glass, tea cadies, all destroyed by fakes from China.
When silver and gold were heading into the stratosphere, it seemed every other post on a more PM oriented site were FAKE BARS, FAKE ROUNDS, etc. DRILL EVERY BAR. Although the POS is 1/3 that amount, I am sure the counterfeiters can still make money, but I do not see those posts anymore. Are the counterfeits so good at this price range, people do not even check them anymore?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Got this page when I checked his trade dollar.
http://www.ngccoin.com/certloo...CertNumber=2646378-004
Disturbing thread.
Ditto
Not over still Listing.
Got this page when I checked his trade dollar.
http://www.ngccoin.com/certloo...CertNumber=2646378-004
NGC needs to put "CONTACT NGC" in bold red lettering. They also need to include something that flags this coin as a "problem/do not purchase" coin.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
i am running certs now to cross-reference with ebay listings/slab images/certs etc and now see some confirmations of many coins being in the same submission. not saying any are fake, just reporting findings and coins that are high-risk.
the 54-o huge o and 1871 pattern led me in that direction.
will continue to update my post which for most of you will be several posts above this one. for those with posts most recent first, it will be several below this post.
edited to add, it would be nice if someone would try to track down any of these certs from auction firms to see if we can get some host coin images for comps. it is the next step and of course share them here or send to me and i will do comps/updates.
.
is anyone thinking about that 1876s trade ddo now?
anyone have that cert so we can cross-reference that submission?
.
I checked a submission that had the 1871 proof pattern dollar. There were some very high value coins in that submission. This operation would need to have some mighty powerful equipment to make a transfer die from a proof coin. If there was an estimated population of 12, I see no realistic way to make a few hundred of something and disperse without getting caught.
Are they actually worried about getting caught?
Fake coins in fake holders?
That is the question.
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit.
Lance.
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit.
Lance.
Given how much the US government cares about copyright and the DCMA, they should also press other countries to coordinate with the HPA.
The biggest problem here, is the counterfeit laws with China. If this counterfeiter were in the US, s/he woukd be facing 25 years in prison, however, in China, s/he is facing a slap-on-the-wrist.
In China it is legal to copy any foreign obsolete coin. There is no slap on the wrist. It is within their law.
Unlike the US, the Chinese do not see obsolete coins as legal tender so they see little harm in allowing their reproduction. "They can't be spent so who cares?" They do not "get" the collectible market or, more likely, choose to ignore its importance to foreign states.
But they are very protective of Chinese antiquities. Fake a Ming vase and you'll go to prison. Fake a Renoir painting and no worries...the dude and his work are not not Chinese.
As for copying TPG holders, the Chinese gov't turns a blind eye because they're not gov't entities. Good luck with a lawsuit.
Lance.
You are 100% CORRECT
who found out that they were not real ???
read the thread.
.
That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
more or less. read the thread.
ngc has on their version of this thread with some good links/info.
.
That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
more or less. read the thread.
ngc has on their version of this theead with some good links/info.
.
I wouldnt really call this addressing the issue... further they (PCGS) said they would be getting back on this issue but I havent seen anything else then this post...
Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.
Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.
That is why PCGS needs to address this thread and clarify what the heck is going on...
6 days since this thread was posted... has there been any public response by PCGS to the coin(s) in question ?
more or less. read the thread.
ngc has on their version of this theead with some good links/info.
.
I wouldnt really call this addressing the issue... further they (PCGS) said they would be getting back on this issue but I havent seen anything else then this post...
Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.
Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.
A response from ATS: ATS
Another of these certified 'die transfer' counterfeits has been discovered:
1847 Hawaiian cent ICG-AU55 counterfeit
1847 Hawaiian ANACS-AU55 counterfeit
compare and note the Post Mint marks, on both coins, on the obverse at 6 and 9 O'Clock and the reverse at 1 and 6 O'Clock etc. clearly both coins came from the same die made from a real coin that had circulated
This is extremely tedious work finding these.
A new counterfeiter of these coins has been uncovered, e_go_tech:
e_go_tech sold die transfer counterfeits
UPDATE:
A new counterfeiter of these coins has been uncovered, e_go_tech:
e_go_tech sold die transfer counterfeits
active - sold/ended - fb
edited to add:
ok ARC
you have inspired me. i see more cross-references of these 2 accounts.
i will run more certs and post my findings. a lot of work i will probably do tomorrow with a fresh mind.
- 2 sellers of coins from the same submission? i posted this info earlier for easy reference. glad to see the hours are paying off.
ego- 32870409 - kiki - 32870405
ego - 33181491 - kiki - 33181492
32870409
33181492
3151770201-icg
2643807-001
2643807-014
2646378-006
2657329-018---1798-xf45--proven fake
2662141-004
2785573-056
2785573-061
2792607-005
2792607-011
4159146-002
.
Simple Question: Are the real holders made in China?
based on all the posts, articles and info between cu, ats, ccf etc, the coins appear to have been submitted.
.
Well, if nothing else, yesterday I got an e-mail advertisement from PCGS touting the new holder.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
eBay doesn't allow false positive feedback. It'll be easy for the seller to have that removed.
That's not a false positive.......it's a follow-up to a positive feedback. I don't believe it can be removed.
fwiw, i've done a nice update to my big post in this thread with updates of certs, cross-references, pics, links, articles, statements, etc. for those that want more to view.
.
should collectors be the ones worried or should it be TPG stock holders ? will be interesting to see how PCGS responds to this, no TPG is a substitute for knowing what you collect, seems that may be an expensive lesson for those that are slaves to the plastic
The problem is that many who do know what they collect are being fooled as these are die transfers. In other words they look just like the real thing.
eBay doesn't allow false positive feedback. It'll be easy for the seller to have that removed.
false positive feedback only is related to sellers leaving feedback for buyers - buyers can leave REAL NEGATIVE feedback
seller appears to be having a field day.
many coins from known subs listed.
more images for the db.
.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
.
seller appears to be having a field day.
many coins from known subs listed.
more images for the db.
.
Luster on a VF Details Large Cent? eBay
What do you think of this one?
Post number 99 just to tee up a very good discussion that needs to continue.
OINK
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]