Counterfeit coins in "real" NGC, PCGS and ANACS holders on eBay

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 7:51AM

All of these coins are die-transfer Counterfeits that have been certified by NGC, PCGS and ANACS:

1. 1874-s Trade $1 NGC: XsAAOSwVL1WDLgw">Real NGC holder, counterfeit coin

2. 1860-o Seated $1 NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

3. 1803 half cent NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

4. 1845 Seated $1 PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

5. 1796 cent ANACS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

6. 1854-o quarter PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

7. 1927-s quarter RAW: coumterfeit coin by same sleer koko2010hy

8. 1798 cent ICG: Real holder, counterfeit coin

NGC is already aware of these counterfeits and is requesting anyone with info on these counterfeits to contact their customer service

Rampage · December 9, 2015 7:57AM

Originally posted by: ArizonaRareCoins
All of these coins are die-transfer Counterfeits that have been certified by NGC, PCGS and ANACS:

1. 1874-s Trade $1 NGC: XsAAOSwVL1WDLgw">Real NGC holder, counterfeit coin

2. 1860-o Seated $1 NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

3. 1803 half cent NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

4. 1845 Seated $1 PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

5. 1796 cent ANACS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

6. 1854-o quarter PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

7. 1927-s quarter RAW: coumterfeit coin by same sleer koko2010hy

8. 1798 cent ICG: Real holder, counterfeit coin

NGC is already aware of these counterfeits and is requesting anyone with info on these counterfeits to contact their customer service

Rampage · December 9, 2015 7:57AM

Fixed it for you. I can read it now.

Rampage · December 9, 2015 7:59AM

How do you know these are counterfeits? The links are good for providing images, but without an explanation (other than die transfer), what are we suppose to see and notice to help us determine if these are, in fact, counterfeit coins?

LanceNewmanOCC · December 9, 2015 8:16AM

.

i looked only quickly at a couple but nothing was obvious to me. id like more info as well.

35 posts, not that it is inclusive, doesn't bode well.

if your intent is well-founded, i appreciate your looking into possible fakes and their being brought into light.

.

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 8:22AM

Thanks for fixing the format for me Rampage.

Many of these counterfeit die-transfer coins have been detailed(proven) as counterfeits in this thread:
how the die transfers were discovered

PS: NGC has marked "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE" as the Grade on all of these coins noted above ie:
Grade: CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE

jclovescoins · December 9, 2015 8:28AM

Thanks for this info. Shows you have to be VERY careful with even graded coins....SCARY! I've always wondered how graders can so quickly tell authenticity if it's only a second or two. THe counterfeiters are just getting better

Walkerguy21D · December 9, 2015 8:59AM

The '96 large cent even shows traces of green verdigris....I wonder how they faked that?

LanceNewmanOCC · December 9, 2015 9:01AM

.

being just involved in this, i will say it will take some time to bring it to conclusion or at least educated hypothosis.

it is being reported that there are some images the potential owner/seller (not ebay) sent out and these may simply be duplicates of those images for some or all.

saying these are any kind of fakes in the holders is a MAJOR statement for these items.

i wil put more legwork into this because IF it is true these are fakes in authentic holders (which i highly doubt at this point) then it need some solid facts, numismatically, for obvious reasons.

im not sure im up for it tonight but ive gotten a good start but will require a fresh mind to do this situation justice and at the end will be my interpretation/perception/opinion.

edited to add:

fb - ended

this seems to boil down to 2 things.

1. the original poster on (ccf) telling the truth and/or not mixing up his coins for these.

2. these being fakes in pcgs authentic holders. A LONG SHOT - also a long shot these are fake holders with authentic coins or fake coins in fake slabs.

.

TigersFan2 · December 9, 2015 10:00AM

I'm confused. Assuming true the accusation that they are fake coins in real holders... (1) Did the grading companies make a mistake and grade a fake coin? or (2) Did the seller figure out a way to open up a real holder and replace the real coin? or (3) is the holder a perfect fake?

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 10:42AM

The coins, being die-transfers, are essentialy exact copies of the original coin. A motivated expert can make very convincing copies. NGC is trying to get these mistakenly certified counterfeits back. Many of these transfer coins were tooled to remove the tell-tale signs of their origin. The 1798 cent and the 1803 half cent have been uncovered as they have been matched to the die-transfer counterfeit sister coins:

1798 cent ICG-AU50 COUNTERFEIT

1798 cent NGC-45 COUNTERFEIT

AND

1803 half cent NGC=AUcleaned

1803 half cent NGC-AUcleaned

ScarsdaleCoin · December 9, 2015 11:02AM

As I have mentioned before these are the single biggest threat to our hobby

joebb21 · December 9, 2015 11:07AM

so you are saying this particular seller was able to fool each of the grading services with these coins? also, if they are trying to get the coins back a nuclear bid is one click away.

I know you have been around for quite awhile- but I dont see any evidence to support your claims.

You also stated ngc is trying to fix their problem- but 2 of the coins you pointed out were pcgs. Are you saying pcgs is not trying to get these coins back?

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 11:25AM

These counterfeit die-transfer coins are coming from China. A dealer friend of mine had purchased one of kiki2010hy counterfeit coins on eBay, an 1878 $3 Gold that he spotted as a counterfeit:
1878 $3 Gold COUNTERFEIT from kiki2010hy

The return address was Easton International in College Station, TX.......Easton is an overseas gateway that forwards coins and other items from/to China.

Rampage · December 9, 2015 11:30AM

I clicked the cert verification link ArizonaRareCoin posted and it certain does picture the coin in the auction and a statement is on that page that says to contact customer service. That being the case, something tells me NGC knows these coins are not right.

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 11:59AM

NGC just changed the status on this 1803 half cent that came from eternitycoin via kiki2010hy. from "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICES" to "NOT GENUINE"

NGC; NOT GENUINE

VanHalen · December 9, 2015 12:12PM

Originally posted by: ArizonaRareCoins

NGC just changed the status on this 1803 half cent that came from eternitycoin via kiki2010hy. from "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICES" to "NOT GENUINE"

NGC; NOT GENUINE

This is the seller I posted about yesterday. A (relatively) new seller that comes up with mega dollars in suspect coins/holders. Looks like some very good copies. As always Caveat emptor.

Zoins · December 9, 2015 12:15PM

Transfer-die counterfeits are very scary. Especially if they are being done on an industrial scale and slabbed in genuine holders.

TopographicOceans · December 9, 2015 12:31PM

This kind of stuff is really ruining the hobby

jclovescoins · December 9, 2015 12:38PM

Makes me want to just buy from GC/Heritage/Stacks

abcde12345 · December 9, 2015 12:42PM

Disconcerting, to say the least.

Shortgapbob · December 9, 2015 12:46PM

So what about the PCGS graded Pattern Dollar the seller has listed?

And the 1916 German East Africa gold piece? They look very crude even when genuine, so it makes me curious.

TigersFan2 · December 9, 2015 12:52PM

I just want to confirm what I'm reading/understanding here. The Ebay seller with all the counterfeit coins in legitimate holders was successful at submitting them and getting them graded/slabbed. He didn't take legitimate coins in legitimate holders, remove the legitimate coin and replace it with a fake coin. Am I understanding correctly?

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better. If it's a case of someone figuring out how to open a slab and change the coin inside, that scares the crap out of me.

Zoins · December 9, 2015 12:57PM

Originally posted by: TigersFan2

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better.

These types of fakes are very hard to spot.

davewesen · December 9, 2015 2:19PM

Originally posted by: TigersFan2
I just want to confirm what I'm reading/understanding here. The Ebay seller with all the counterfeit coins in legitimate holders was successful at submitting them and getting them graded/slabbed. He didn't take legitimate coins in legitimate holders, remove the legitimate coin and replace it with a fake coin. Am I understanding correctly?

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better. If it's a case of someone figuring out how to open a slab and change the coin inside, that scares the crap out of me.

You are assuming the eBay seller was the person who had the coins graded.

VanHalen · December 9, 2015 2:49PM

Originally posted by: TigersFan2

I just want to confirm what I'm reading/understanding here. The Ebay seller with all the counterfeit coins in legitimate holders was successful at submitting them and getting them graded/slabbed. He didn't take legitimate coins in legitimate holders, remove the legitimate coin and replace it with a fake coin. Am I understanding correctly?

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better. If it's a case of someone figuring out how to open a slab and change the coin inside, that scares the crap out of me.

Unclear at this point but it appears genuine coins were slabbed and then swapped out with counterfeit coins. I hope we learn more soon.

ArizonaRareCoins · December 9, 2015 3:48PM

Originally posted by: TigersFan2
I just want to confirm what I'm reading/understanding here. The Ebay seller with all the counterfeit coins in legitimate holders was successful at submitting them and getting them graded/slabbed. He didn't take legitimate coins in legitimate holders, remove the legitimate coin and replace it with a fake coin. Am I understanding correctly?

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better. If it's a case of someone figuring out how to open a slab and change the coin inside, that scares the crap out of me.

Unfortunately, It appears this counterfeiter from China, kiki2010hy, sent in the coins to the TPG's and many of these counterfeits went undetected and were certified. NGC is attempting to correct their errors by recalling their certified counterfeits. Counterfeiting US coins in China is common as there is virtually no punishment if caught, as opposed to counterfeiting coins in the US. These are some of the scariest counterfeit die-transfer coins I've ever seen as they are copies of real coins and seem to be fooling all the majir TPG's.

Pandavab · December 9, 2015 4:13PM

Wow, definitely concerning. I purchased a trade dollar a few months back from someone and later sold it, but I remember when I received it thinking something was off. However, when I looked up the cert verification on NGC it came back as legit at the time and showed a photo of the coin I had in hand. Given NGC's reputation, I assumed they were right and I was wrong. I decided to look up at that coin again now after reading this thread and I see the "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE" as the grade now. Guess I'll be giving them a call tomorrow, and likely will need to contact the person I sold it to as well depending on what they tell me.

Definitely concerning if this is happening with the top TPG companies.

TigersFan2 · December 9, 2015 10:37PM

Originally posted by: davewesen

Originally posted by: TigersFan2
I just want to confirm what I'm reading/understanding here. The Ebay seller with all the counterfeit coins in legitimate holders was successful at submitting them and getting them graded/slabbed. He didn't take legitimate coins in legitimate holders, remove the legitimate coin and replace it with a fake coin. Am I understanding correctly?

If it's a case of the Ebay seller submitting fake coins and the grading companies not catching it and grading them, I'm less concerned as I believe they'll learn from this and do better. If it's a case of someone figuring out how to open a slab and change the coin inside, that scares the crap out of me.

You are assuming the eBay seller was the person who had the coins graded.

Seems like a safe assumption since the Ebay seller has possession of many of them.

Smittys · December 9, 2015 10:45PM

This is Very Scarey

jclovescoins · December 9, 2015 11:11PM

Truly disconcerting

VanHalen · December 10, 2015 12:40AM

Originally posted by: jclovescoins

Truly disconcerting

Yes. Here's one that PCGS certified as problem-free. eBay

In many cases it seems they got coins past the TPG problem-free. NGC is on to them and has "de-certified" many of them on the cert verification page. Please report this seller so they can be stopped. For now anyway.

roadrunner · December 10, 2015 1:33AM

That's one of the reasons why I always preferred choice and gem 19th century type coins....probably a lot harder to fake original luster patterns, die cracks, die polish, etc.

LindeDad · December 10, 2015 2:00AM

I would really like to know who is saying they know more than three of most respected grading services?

BTW where is Don now as this needs his attention.

jtlee321 · December 10, 2015 2:23AM

If this kiki2010hy is passing off so many of these known counterfeits, why is eBay not suspending this sellers account and notifying the buyers of the counterfeit coins? Have the TPG's been notified? If so, why are they not going after this eBay seller and buying the counterfeit coins back as well as notifying authorities and eBay. eBay and the TPG's have their reputations at stake here. This is pretty serious.

indeetlib · December 10, 2015 2:28AM

Originally posted by: LindeDad
I would really like to know who is saying they know more than three of most respected grading services?

I don't think anyone's saying that. But nobody is infallible and mistakes do happen. I can't speak for the silver and gold coins or foreign with any authority, but all of the half cents and large cents associated with these sellers are without a doubt transfer die counterfeits. I would assume all the others are as well. The slabs are legit. This 1798 S-158 Large Cent in an NGC XF45 holder was what got this all started:

You can compare this with the linked ICG example and to a genuine Sheldon 158 to see that there are areas of discrepancy with the real thing as well as common marks/damage to each of the counterfeits - one of the tell tale signs of a transfer die counterfeit. Not to mention everything wrong with the surfaces, color, texture, etc. I don't have time to go into too much detail here about these but I am working on an article for Pennywise (the EAC journal) and would be happy to forward it to anyone interested when it is finished. There are as many as a dozen different counterfeit dates and varieties we've identified - and that's just in early copper.

And this is not at all to bash the grading services. These are extremely deceptive fakes. I know NGC is doing everything it can to make the situation right and I'm sure the other services are as well. And you always have their guarantee to fall back on - so don't crack them out!

DennisH · December 10, 2015 4:37AM

I have 3 counterfeit coins in genuine PCGS holders and they are some of my favorites -- micro-O Morgans from 1896, 1900 and 1902.

roadrunner · December 10, 2015 7:43AM

I always thought that die transfer and cast counterfeits were of such poor quality that it was nearly impossible to get one past a TPG (ie fuzzy details, tooling marks, wrong ring tones, wrong colors and look, etc.). What's changed?

LanceNewmanOCC · December 10, 2015 8:40AM

.

if this is all true, i am bowing out as i am out of my depth.

i d/l the images for the coins in question and will d/l any more that others post and will think long and hard about this whole thing.

these as die transfers are simply blowing my mind.

perhaps some quality side-by-sides will be the required next step?

.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · December 10, 2015 8:57AM

This is out of control…Great catch by OP and can't wait to see the outcome of this. WOW

NorCalJack · December 10, 2015 8:58AM

So if the coin was a Secure PCGS coin, would they be able to catch it before they slab the fake coin. I mean if PCGS scanned the original coin into a Secure holder and someone cracked that coin out and made a die transfer and then sent in the fake coin, would not PCGS recognize the coin as a fake since the original coin was in there data base.

Does NGC have a Secure system in place to help stop this from happening.

fishteeth · December 10, 2015 10:03AM

If someone was to fabricate a transfer die of a high grade coin, say an 1877 indian cent, and then wear the coin down to a G/VG would it be possible to id as a fake if all the markers from the original coin were worn smooth. I really think technology will make collecting coins obsolete in more than one way. If you can only be sure of high grade or pedigreed coins how can the average collector build a set?

I can tell you I just purchased my last lower grade coin or net details coin until I read up more on this. I was building a set of seated halves, raw, I was cracking the coins and some were net graded better dates that could have been artificially worn and then cleaned to hide the diagnostics.

ms70 · December 10, 2015 10:11AM

This is truly disgusting.

ms70 · December 10, 2015 10:18AM

This one goes of in 7 minutes.

1845 Seated Liberty Dollar PCGS AU55

SetRegistryManager · December 10, 2015 11:15AM

Originally posted by: ArizonaRareCoins
All of these coins are die-transfer Counterfeits that have been certified by NGC, PCGS and ANACS:

1. 1874-s Trade $1 NGC: XsAAOSwVL1WDLgw">Real NGC holder, counterfeit coin

2. 1860-o Seated $1 NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

3. 1803 half cent NGC: Real holder, counterfeit coin

4. 1845 Seated $1 PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

5. 1796 cent ANACS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

6. 1854-o quarter PCGS: Real holder, counterfeit coin

7. 1927-s quarter RAW: coumterfeit coin by same sleer koko2010hy

8. 1798 cent ICG: Real holder, counterfeit coin

NGC is already aware of these counterfeits and is requesting anyone with info on these counterfeits to contact their customer service

Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.

Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.

derryb · December 10, 2015 11:35AM

another reason to always check the TPG cert. page. Hopefully PCGS will follow NGC's lead and update cert pages for the counterfeit coins.

It will take agressive action by the TPGs to shut down and prosecute the seller. Maximum publicity from ebay on prosecuted members would help discourage future scammers. Unfortunately they never will publicize those they prosecute because it brings into question the safety of buying on ebay. Ebay fails to realize that issuing press releases on their policing efforts would be to their advantage.

I'm sure Ebay will respond to a phone call from a TPG more than they will respond to a complaint/report by an ebay member.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 10, 2015 11:54AM

.

last updated 1-6-16 - 9,627 characters with spaces give/take

just cuz i haven't seen it said in this thread.

aren't host coins from die transfers essentially or flat-out destroyed?

here are certs for convenience with links.

thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l1600/pict/331741549498_1.jpg

i.ebayimg.com/images/g/oEEAAOSwK7FWh-uO/s-l400.jpg

other thread

.

ngc lookup

pcgs lookup

1874-s Trade $1 - NGC - 2646378-004 - grade -

1860-o Seated $1 - NGC - 2643807-008

1803 Draped h1c - NGC - 4133795-001

1845 Seated $1 - PCGS - 32516294

1796 Draped 1c - ANACS - 4932667

1854-o Seated 25c - PCGS - 33181494

1927-s Standing 25c - RAW

1798 Draped 1c - ICG - 3151770301

others

1798 Draped 1c ngc - 2657329-018

1871 Trade $1 Pattern - PCGS - 33181493

active - fb - ended

im thinking how we can get this out FAST and with effective info.

it seems these will be traceable back to the source with some legwork, not by us though.

i will link the images in this post in the next couple days for posterity. just too dang tired now.

EDITED TO ADD

these are coins possibly part of the same submission - all seem to be details coins - will confirm later

33181486 1946-s-50c booker another sub?

33181487 1876-s-$1

33181488 1876-s-$1

33181489 1873---$1 J-1310

33181490 1853---$1

33181491 1846-o-$1 - ebay coin

33181492 1842---$1 - ebay coin - ego

33181493 1871---$1 J-1146 - ebay coin

33181494 1854-o-25c - ebay coin

33181495 1827-s-25c xf40

33181496 1804---1c - ebay coin

33181497 1798---1c

33181498 1798/7-1c 1c

33181499 Bombay Hook NP 5 oz 25c another sub?

33181500 Bombay Hook NP 5 oz 25c another sub?

---------------------------------

32870402 2015-w--------another sub?

32870403 1869----$1

32870404 1836----$1

32870405 1859-s $1 - ebay coin

32870406 1853----$1

32870407 1872-cc-$1

32870408 1872-cc-$1

32870409 1874cc----$1 chop xf45 - ebay coin - ego

32870410 1799----1c fine details

32870411 1797----1c rev95 xf detail

32870412 1796----1c rev95 xf detail

32870413 - 1839/6 1c

32870414 - 2000-W - end of sub?

---------------------------------

32516293 1921 peso with trueview end of submission?

32516294 1845 $1 au55 - ebay coin

32516295 1841 $1 vf detail

32516296 1859-o $1 xf detail - ebay coin

32516297 1803 1c au58bn

32516298 1793 1c xf40bn

32516299 not in database

32516300 not in database

4932667 - verify this cert??

28178706

28178707

28178708

28178709 - 1927 $20

28178710 - 1928 $20 - kiki

28178711 - 1900 $2.5

28178712 - 1906-d 50c - trueview

28178713 - 1871 $1

28178714 - 1872 2c

run more

free trueview for all foreign coins under shield service per pcgs i think.

32870383

32870384

32870385 - 28 thaler - trueview

32870386 - 32 thaler - trueview

32870387 - 1834 thaler- foreign - kiki - shield

32870388 - 1825

32870389 - 1865-b thaler

32870390 -

odd break in cert #s - submitted simultaneous subs or modern fakes.

32870400 - 2015w $100 high relief

32870409 - 1874 cc $1 trade xf45

32870410 - 1799 1c f detail

32870411 - 1797 1c xf detail

32870412 - 1796 1c xf detail

32870413 - 1839/6 1c - vf detail - 2016 listing

32870414 - 2000-W $5 - end of sub

32516291

32516292

32516293

32516294 - 1845 $1

32516295 - 1841 $1 - kiki

32516296

32516297

32516298

---------------------------------

ngc coins will go below here

2636131-003

2636131-006

2643807-008

2643807-009

2643807-016

2646378-004

2657329-018 - 1798 proven fake - same in "ego" post.

2662141-001

4133795-001

---------------------------------

icg

3151770301

---------------------------------

4932667 - anacs

---------------------------------

links for convenience

ATS

ngc article

ngc articles/blog? re:forgeries/fakes/counterfeits - nice! - linked from their forum to an update about these current holdered fakes and then from that article. dig, dig, dig.

thread-my thread

sp-

tv-

cf

-----------------------------------

Thank you for letting us know, we are looking into it.

Please feel free to email us anytime you see something like this, we will do our best to review and address the listings.

per PCGS rep - 12/11/2015

Not all of the coins in these few submissions were counterfeit, and most were not graded, but there were a handful of deceptive forgeries. - This guarantee is designed to give buyers of NGC-certified coins peace of mind knowing that we stand behind our services.

per NGC rep - post #9044754 ATS - 12/14/15

i was/am wondering the same thing about authentic and fake coins being submitted together and wonder if something deeper is going on. i wont post my speculations as of now.

this whole thing, from my perspective, is a tangled mess.

.

pocketpiececommems · December 10, 2015 12:05PM

Speaking of tog graded counterfeits. I purchased a circ Texas in a genuine/cleaned pcgs holder on eBay. It didn't look cleaned to me so I cracked it out and sent it back in. It came back bb as counterfeit

sawyerjosh · December 10, 2015 12:10PM

Do the metal compositions match the originals? Are the weights the same?

kaz · December 10, 2015 12:19PM

Looking at the photos of the coins in the o.p., I see a fake raw SLQ, a fake raw $3 gold Indian (in a later post), and a fake large cent in an NGC holder ID'd by unique surface marks. I have studied the chopped Trade dollar and to be honest I can't see anything that leads me to believe it is a fake, and nothing has been posted by others that would lead me to believe that it is. The 1860-O dollar (which has sold) likewise does not look fake to me. There are some dark marks on the rev lettering that could be pits but I think are just spots of toning. It is not unusual for sellers of fakes to mix them in with legitimate coins.

It does not surprise me that from time to time a fake will make it into a top tier grading service holder. Nobody's perfect and the forgers are always trying to improve their products. If anything this episode will lead to further improvement in TPG policies and procedures and more security for us collectors.

The transfer die process inevitably leads to some loss of detail, and lends itself better to coins that don't have a lot of really fine detail (like large cents) versus coins that do (like trade dollars or standing liberty quarters). Fine detail is best captured by the lost wax process, but each casting is a one-off.

TopographicOceans · December 10, 2015 1:29PM

New Feedback follow-up

Follow-up by d***e (Dec-10-15 11:00):
THIS SELLER IS SELLING COUNTERFEIT COINS GRADED BY MISTAKE FROM NGC CHEK WEBSITE

1878 $3 Gold Indian Princess Three Dollar Coin (#221931672568) US $1,768.00

Counterfeit coins in "real" NGC, PCGS and ANACS holders on eBay

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