I get it that some people are swimming in money but I would be so pissed if the dude that has a super shady bidding history pushed a card 30k higher on me.
If it is legit competition and a real bidding war erupts that is life but when you can see first hand that in two current auctions the scumbag has played the become high bid and retract game it isn't cool.
The dude may win a lot of auctions and be a real spender but having no ethics when it comes to your bids just isn't right.
your assuming could backfire on ya like that trimmed card/neg feedback assumption. there are actually people out there that have extra ebay accounts, commit bid retractions, post a ton of low opening bids to alter the stats on bid % history w/ that seller and basically manipulate the system and the auction to give others the perception that there is something fishy going on. other's pull out due to this and ultimately they get the card for less than it might have gone for. happens quite frequently on bigger ticket items.
not a tactic i would employ and a generally frowned upon "grey area" but they are using the rules/boundaries to their advantage. after all, an auction like this is quite the head game.
I think EBAY only cares about the final price to generate the most revenue.
That said I don't think you will find many collectors that feel that strategy is appropriate and while the responses on this board are tame they certainly aren't on others in relation to this topic.
If you place a bid you are always subject to someone raising you but if they do so in increments and then cancel their top bid they are literally costing you money. If I place a bid and someone bids me up so be it. Just be willing to honor your bid.
Ebay has no reason to enforce the rules because they have essentially a monopoly in online auctions. If another competitor emerged they might have to tackle issues such as this but at this time they are the market and as much as people complain it goes on deaf ears.
was just letting you know your assumption might be wrong again and this guy might not just be blowing smoke and actually pays for the card should he win.
Finally over and one of the good guys ended up winning which is great! A good price for the nicest Mantle 8 to come up for sale in quite some time. Someone at Ebay and PWCC needs to look at the bidding activity of some of the other folks along with their retractions. Why someone can bid and retract repeatedly and bid again makes no sense.
Someone at Ebay and PWCC needs to look at the bidding activity of some of the other folks along with their retractions. Why someone can bid and retract repeatedly and bid again makes no sense.
100% and it should be ebay. but like dpeck said, until they get some major competition, they don't give a rats arse.
I think it is great that the under bidder had no bid retractions. As has been discussed this is the type of card that can bring in people from the outside and looking at their bidding mix it appears that might be the case.
Even though the process appears tainted I think the outcome is probably the same. A win for the hobby.
Originally posted by: Dpeck100 I get it that some people are swimming in money but I would be so pissed if the dude that has a super shady bidding history pushed a card 30k higher on me.
If it is legit competition and a real bidding war erupts that is life but when you can see first hand that in two current auctions the scumbag has played the become high bid and retract game it isn't cool.
The dude may win a lot of auctions and be a real spender but having no ethics when it comes to your bids just isn't right.
your assuming could backfire on ya like that trimmed card/neg feedback assumption. there are actually people out there that have extra ebay accounts, commit bid retractions, post a ton of low opening bids to alter the stats on bid % history w/ that seller and basically manipulate the system and the auction to give others the perception that there is something fishy going on. other's pull out due to this and ultimately they get the card for less than it might have gone for. happens quite frequently on bigger ticket items.
not a tactic i would employ and a generally frowned upon "grey area" but they are using the rules/boundaries to their advantage. after all, an auction like this is quite the head game.
this makes no sense, and I'm dumber for having read this analogy. We all agree that retractors, whether on the top end or bottom end of an auction, are a*holes and need to be dealt with by ebay, and possibly, via blocking usernames by the auctioneer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Mantle did NOT have any retracted bids? There are bids by bidiots with lots of retractions, but there are not retractions in the bid history that I can tell.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
if you don't think it's happening or has happened, then maybe it's impossible of being dumber. there's a guy on one of the other boards that actually gloated about this strategy a few months ago. i found it to be quite demented, however nothing really shocks me about the greed in this industry anymore.
trying to figure out which part you don't get?
if the guy went up to $460k and didn't retract in this auction (but had a ton previously), then this would make perfect sense and he simply hit the round number ceiling he was committed to.
you can honestly say you don't think there are people out there capable of doing this?
Once the buyer follows through, the next step is shipping. Would you trust sending an item of this value FedEx Priority Overnight? I would think that someone spending that amount would have other means to make sure it makes it to them safely.
They should send a live TV crew to the winner's home and deliver the card to him while he's putzing around in his jammies with a cuppa Joe and his IPhone.
Absolutely. Amongst the balloons, microphones and prying eyes of a neighboring community. Then, this forum shall have its answer and the identity of the person who wrote that check. ;-)
I am surprised there isn't a multitude of posts about the Mantle in Heritage right now with a current bid of $440,000 with just over 4 hours to go in regular bidding.
I saw it and that one is not nearly as nice as the PWCC one. I know the winner of that one should be very happy to see the price increase since it is not as nicely center nor has the registration. With this slaw that makes about 15% of all Mantle 8's having been sold this year.
The moment I turned on CNBC this morning it was the first news bite running across the ticker tape. Pretty awesome to see a baseball card make the news.
The moment I turned on CNBC this morning it was the first news bite running across the ticker tape. Pretty awesome to see a baseball card make the news.
Wait until the Gretzky Wagner sells next time (whenever that is). With the whole Mastro/trimming drama behind it, that will generate huge press. Well, huge relative to coverage of the baseball card market.
What a spread for PSA 8 Mantles in the last few months! $400K, $309K, $486K, and now $525K
Does cause some pause about legitimacy, especially since one sold last year for $268K.
As for the Heritage sale, where were these bidders on the PWCC Mantle 8?
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
I agree. These Mantles are going up at an unreal pace. If you look at VCP a few years back the price spike up doesn't make sense. Nothing goes up like that. I know this has been debated here but is this a bubble or does demand keep growing? In total 1952 Mantles are not rare, in high grades they are. It's fun to watch. This last sale over $500,000 got a lot of press. This iconic card might be going main stream.
Love those 70's - early 80's packs and boxes...send me a message if you are selling because I am buying
Rarity and scarcity are the key terms to parse when discussing this card. There may be ~1000 in PSA slabs...but how many of those are really great looking-- in terms of no tilt, great centering, and a blemish-free blue background-- in any and all grades? Then when we compare that actual number to the demand for those examples, that's when the real picture comes into focus. In other words, if the demand blows away the supply, looking at the sheer population number becomes both specious and moot. I think with this particular card, part of what we are seeing is that a whole generation of the demand for it, namely kids of the 80's for whom the card is iconic, are now making money and reaching for their cherished dream pieces. The 1986 Fleer MJ is in the same boat in this respect (a PSA 10 on eBay is actively flirting with the $20,000 barrier). With the Mantle, the aforementioned guys now in their 30s to 40 are also competing at auction against men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who also love the card. Lots of people out there who want one, let alone a nice one, and very few nice ones-- relative to that demand-- to be had. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is a baseball card that is not only the hobby's standard-bearer, alongside the Honus, but it has successfully crossed generations, becoming iconic for men of greatly different ages. From that perspective what's happening makes sense, to me. Past prices can often be just that, outdated, irrelevant data forever relegated to the past. The M101 Ruth was hiding in plain sight, so to speak, for many years, before exploding, as a touchstone.
Must be a hedge fund manager etc vs a true collector (unless its a guy with multiple '52's). I say that because Id take the PWCC over this one every day. And it was less money! And so much better eye appeal. Tho this one is nothing to sneeze at.
Maybe the top for a little bit. Not gonna say the bubble word. Buuutt.....
1. The run up in such a short period of time
2. Looks like people are buying lesser and lesser quality for more and more money across the board (across the grades).
3. People throwing up/listing PSA 1-4's with crazy asking prices.
4. When the cab guy or your sisters hairdresser or the cover of Time (or CNBC) starts to know and considering buying
...well, those are the usual signs ....tulips, redhat, ethanol, on and on
Buuut, I know..this is different, no more being made, tons of demand that won't be met etc. I agree.....and Im def a buyer if any pullback...but i don't think there will be much of a pullback...Prob continue. Def will long term.
Agree with DM23, and as Ive said..i have a decent Mantle collection but Im priced out of the 52's and don't see me EVER getting one.
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all.
With the run up in price on the Mantle, I wonder what the percentage breakdown is in regard to buying the card in these two areas: 1)Is it based on true love/respect for him as a player and his accomplishments, or 2)is it seen strictly as an investment opportunity. Could be a mixture of both as well.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
With the run up in price on the Mantle, I wonder what the percentage breakdown is in regard to buying the card in these two areas: 1)Is it based on true love/respect for him as a player and his accomplishments, or 2)is it seen strictly as an investment opportunity. Could be a mixture of both as well.
Just my opinion, but Wall Street/investors have discovered the vintage card market. By all appearances, the money going into these Mantles are pure investment plays. Unfortunately, or fortunately for sellers, some of it is funny money, with no regard for quality of the grade or previous historical sales. Some of it is emotional got-to-have the '52 Mantle to show my friends. Some of it is pump and dump, which will become apparent soon, IMO. Maybe those 9's will soon be on the market?
It is an interesting investment though. With gold, commodities, oil, futures, options, silver, and to some extent stocks, you never take possession of those investments for the most part. With vintage cards, you can hold them in your hand, at least until someone invents a futures market for cards.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
The one Heritage sold on Dec10 PSA8 was nice @525,800, despite oc/ top to bottom. From the 'Rosen find' it shows the same card sold on Heritage May 3, 2012 for 77,675, then sold again there on Jul 31,2104 for 179,250, then sold at this 525,800 price tag this month.
Wonder what Heritage's new SGC 88 /8 will bring??? will it compare to its rival PSA examples?
Lets take this as an example from Heritage on November 5th on these 7's The PSA 7 sold for 227,050 and the SGC sold for 131,450 Huge difference in prices
SGC 7 I was fortunate to grab my 52 a few yrs ago, and love whats going on here. As for selling, i doubt it, i look at it also as a investment longterm.
As for other Mick cards...the 51 should see some boost, and already got a kick start. I also can see the 53 & 56 get some attention.
Just this week several 56 Mantles are listed on Ebay in PSA 8, and some are auctions and others BIN. This is the largest group of 56's in high grade available at the same time in years, and I think like you stated they are going to rise and benefit from the rookie card sale prices.
Comments
I get it that some people are swimming in money but I would be so pissed if the dude that has a super shady bidding history pushed a card 30k higher on me.
If it is legit competition and a real bidding war erupts that is life but when you can see first hand that in two current auctions the scumbag has played the become high bid and retract game it isn't cool.
The dude may win a lot of auctions and be a real spender but having no ethics when it comes to your bids just isn't right.
your assuming could backfire on ya like that trimmed card/neg feedback assumption. there are actually people out there that have extra ebay accounts, commit bid retractions, post a ton of low opening bids to alter the stats on bid % history w/ that seller and basically manipulate the system and the auction to give others the perception that there is something fishy going on. other's pull out due to this and ultimately they get the card for less than it might have gone for. happens quite frequently on bigger ticket items.
not a tactic i would employ and a generally frowned upon "grey area" but they are using the rules/boundaries to their advantage. after all, an auction like this is quite the head game.
i said: it's not a tactic i would employ.
nice pic, btw.
That said I don't think you will find many collectors that feel that strategy is appropriate and while the responses on this board are tame they certainly aren't on others in relation to this topic.
If you place a bid you are always subject to someone raising you but if they do so in increments and then cancel their top bid they are literally costing you money. If I place a bid and someone bids me up so be it. Just be willing to honor your bid.
Ebay has no reason to enforce the rules because they have essentially a monopoly in online auctions. If another competitor emerged they might have to tackle issues such as this but at this time they are the market and as much as people complain it goes on deaf ears.
was just letting you know your assumption might be wrong again and this guy might not just be blowing smoke and actually pays for the card should he win.
that's all.
The topic was in relation to 1271 and 775.
the topic was in relation to 1271 and 775.
and so was my post about your assumptions. top bidder now or who ultimately wins is moot.
Someone at Ebay and PWCC needs to look at the bidding activity of some of the other folks along with their retractions. Why someone can bid and retract repeatedly and bid again makes no sense.
100% and it should be ebay. but like dpeck said, until they get some major competition, they don't give a rats arse.
Even though the process appears tainted I think the outcome is probably the same. A win for the hobby.
Didn't this one realize more than the two that were sold around National?
I get it that some people are swimming in money but I would be so pissed if the dude that has a super shady bidding history pushed a card 30k higher on me.
If it is legit competition and a real bidding war erupts that is life but when you can see first hand that in two current auctions the scumbag has played the become high bid and retract game it isn't cool.
The dude may win a lot of auctions and be a real spender but having no ethics when it comes to your bids just isn't right.
your assuming could backfire on ya like that trimmed card/neg feedback assumption. there are actually people out there that have extra ebay accounts, commit bid retractions, post a ton of low opening bids to alter the stats on bid % history w/ that seller and basically manipulate the system and the auction to give others the perception that there is something fishy going on. other's pull out due to this and ultimately they get the card for less than it might have gone for. happens quite frequently on bigger ticket items.
not a tactic i would employ and a generally frowned upon "grey area" but they are using the rules/boundaries to their advantage. after all, an auction like this is quite the head game.
this makes no sense, and I'm dumber for having read this analogy. We all agree that retractors, whether on the top end or bottom end of an auction, are a*holes and need to be dealt with by ebay, and possibly, via blocking usernames by the auctioneer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Mantle did NOT have any retracted bids? There are bids by bidiots with lots of retractions, but there are not retractions in the bid history that I can tell.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
trying to figure out which part you don't get?
if the guy went up to $460k and didn't retract in this auction (but had a ton previously), then this would make perfect sense and he simply hit the round number ceiling he was committed to.
you can honestly say you don't think there are people out there capable of doing this?
eBay Store
Greg Maddux #1 Master SetGreg Maddux #2 Basic Set
The moment I turned on CNBC this morning it was the first news bite running across the ticker tape. Pretty awesome to see a baseball card make the news.
$525,800
The moment I turned on CNBC this morning it was the first news bite running across the ticker tape. Pretty awesome to see a baseball card make the news.
Wait until the Gretzky Wagner sells next time (whenever that is). With the whole Mastro/trimming drama behind it, that will generate huge press. Well, huge relative to coverage of the baseball card market.
Does cause some pause about legitimacy, especially since one sold last year for $268K.
As for the Heritage sale, where were these bidders on the PWCC Mantle 8?
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
In other words, if the demand blows away the supply, looking at the sheer population number becomes both specious and moot.
I think with this particular card, part of what we are seeing is that a whole generation of the demand for it, namely kids of the 80's for whom the card is iconic, are now making money and reaching for their cherished dream pieces. The 1986 Fleer MJ is in the same boat in this respect (a PSA 10 on eBay is actively flirting with the $20,000 barrier).
With the Mantle, the aforementioned guys now in their 30s to 40 are also competing at auction against men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who also love the card. Lots of people out there who want one, let alone a nice one, and very few nice ones-- relative to that demand-- to be had. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is a baseball card that is not only the hobby's standard-bearer, alongside the Honus, but it has successfully crossed generations, becoming iconic for men of greatly different ages. From that perspective what's happening makes sense, to me. Past prices can often be just that, outdated, irrelevant data forever relegated to the past. The M101 Ruth was hiding in plain sight, so to speak, for many years, before exploding, as a touchstone.
Maybe the top for a little bit. Not gonna say the bubble word. Buuutt.....
1. The run up in such a short period of time
2. Looks like people are buying lesser and lesser quality for more and more money across the board (across the grades).
3. People throwing up/listing PSA 1-4's with crazy asking prices.
4. When the cab guy or your sisters hairdresser or the cover of Time (or CNBC) starts to know and considering buying
...well, those are the usual signs ....tulips, redhat, ethanol, on and on
Buuut, I know..this is different, no more being made, tons of demand that won't be met etc. I agree.....and Im def a buyer if any pullback...but i don't think there will be much of a pullback...Prob continue. Def will long term.
Agree with DM23, and as Ive said..i have a decent Mantle collection but Im priced out of the 52's and don't see me EVER getting one.
With the run up in price on the Mantle, I wonder what the percentage breakdown is in regard to buying the card in these two areas: 1)Is it based on true love/respect for him as a player and his accomplishments, or 2)is it seen strictly as an investment opportunity. Could be a mixture of both as well.
Just my opinion, but Wall Street/investors have discovered the vintage card market. By all appearances, the money going into these Mantles are pure investment plays. Unfortunately, or fortunately for sellers, some of it is funny money, with no regard for quality of the grade or previous historical sales. Some of it is emotional got-to-have the '52 Mantle to show my friends. Some of it is pump and dump, which will become apparent soon, IMO. Maybe those 9's will soon be on the market?
It is an interesting investment though. With gold, commodities, oil, futures, options, silver, and to some extent stocks, you never take possession of those investments for the most part. With vintage cards, you can hold them in your hand, at least until someone invents a futures market for cards.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Wonder what Heritage's new SGC 88 /8 will bring??? will it compare to its rival PSA examples?
Lets take this as an example from Heritage on November 5th on these 7's
The PSA 7 sold for 227,050 and the SGC sold for 131,450 Huge difference in prices
PSA 7
SGC 7
I was fortunate to grab my 52 a few yrs ago, and love whats going on here. As for selling, i doubt it, i look at it also as a investment longterm.
As for other Mick cards...the 51 should see some boost, and already got a kick start.
I also can see the 53 & 56 get some attention.