Do you feel an older NGC holder (fatty) should hold a premium?

Bochiman

Do YOU pay a premium, or would you be willing to, for a coin in an old NGC fatty holder?
How about one with a green cac sticker?
How about one with toned copper (IHC)? What about a proof?


I am aware of some of the perceived significance of coins, particularly toned and/or copper coins, in older holders. A show of stability against a potential AT job.


That said, while I don't mind buying the coins in the holders, I, personally, wouldn't pay a premium (I just wouldn't discount the coin as added risk). They aren't black slabs so it isn't like "destroying history", or mega-profits, if crossing them over.
I am tempted to do that but I don't mind having them as is either. Just can't get the trueview (yes, I am aware there are very skilled photogs here that can get great pics....just as I am aware that, particularly for toned copper proofs, going through any slab can be a PITA) and can't put in the registry. Also, for toned copper proofs, I like the PCGS holders best. Something about how deep the coins sit in the ngc thick white insert that I don't particularly like for toned copper.

So, that was all just background as I mull my thoughts around. Just curious if people (even if it is here on the PCGS boards I know there are many that can appreciate the coin itself as well as the slab) that would give any premium to these old fatty holders?

Cougar1978

NGC Fatty - no do not pay premiums on thes bc of holder, many times these have the back label worn off due to sticker abuse. Any premium I pay is based n the coin. There can also exist a bias on the part of potential buyers an NGC Fatty my have unattractive toning or be really low end fo the grade to have lasted in a fatty holder this long.

CAC Sticker - no do not pay premium just bc coin is stickered - I do not pay premiums on stickered vs non stickered. Any premium I pay is based on my evaluation of the coin. The sticker is merely an opinion (like attorney thoughts on case) as opposed to a TPG Opinion (ruling by court).

In any purchase situation one should look at the coins carefully to detect any problems like spots, unattractive toning, etc. What I define as PQ is based on my evaluation of the coin stickered or not.

It would be interesting to track results on ebay of CAC and Fatty Holder NGC coins vs other material. I will look for some to incorporate into my current spreadsheet tracking of auctions closing off my watch list - Realized vs Market Value vs CDN Bid. Who knows I may pick up some of these.

Broadstruck

I've paid premiums as much as 2 grades higher for some and nothing for others....

All depends on the actual coin which is entombed in the old soap bar.

MarkInDavis

I would never pay a premium for a holder. I have, however, seen many NGC fatties that are definitely undergraded (more often than rattlers and OGH). I would certainly pay a premium for those specific examples.

BillJones

None of them deserve a premium if you don't care for the coin that is in them.

keyman64

No.

It would be a buy the coin, not the holder situation for me.
If the coin is obviously undergraded, premium for the grade, wonderfully toned etc...
then I am going to pay appropriately for the coin. It has ZERO to do with the holder
especially when it would likely be cracked out anyway, like I have done in the past.

crazyhounddog

I always judge the coin and NOT the holder. I am aware of collectors that do look for these fat slabs thinking that just because it's an old holder the coin is under graded. I really don't think so. I know that many coins in these holders have been found to be under graded but I would think the percentage of these can't be very high. I do, however, have a couple of buffalo nickel's in these holders and are beautifully toned and I feel under graded. I just keep em the way they are and enjoy them for what they are.
Here's a type 1 Buff graded 66 in an old fatty slab. Beautiful toning and GREAT luster. In my opinion this Buff should be a 67. I like it for what it is and will also enjoy the old slab as a collector item too.

coinbuf

The important piece is the coin not the holder; that goes for any old holder be it fattie, OGH, rattler, etc.. If I like the coin and it's in an old holder of some type thats a nice little bonus as I do like coins in old holders. But unlike many here I would never waste the time and money to try and change the plastic, lots of folks here have many reasons and justifications for doing so but at the end of the day it's just not worth it for me.

clarkbar04

I think a nice piece in an old holder has a bit more cool factor, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.

I am of the theory that most of the stuff in old holders has been pretty well combed over for undergraded specimens, and it is currently only used as a marketing tool.

johnny9434

if one wants it yes, what ever floats your boat. ( or sinks it in some cases )

Weiss

All things being equal, I'd rather have a coin I'm attracted to in a fatty or a rattler.

For example, my 1921 peace dollar came out of a collection that had been slabbed in the early days of TPG. I think it's exceptional--one of the nicest 21 peace dollars I've seen in person.

It's in an early NGC fatty slab. MS65. I've since had it CAC'd (green, I felt it had at least a good shot at gold).

Would I want an MS65 CAC 1921 peace in a modern NGC or PCGS slab? Sure, if it was beautiful. But I'd prefer to have a beautiful and slab-stable coin in a fatty or rattler.

Given the choice, all things equal, you pick: Freshly slabbed NGC MS65 peace, or fatty slab NGC MS65 peace.

winky

Not in my lifetime would I do that.

Unknown

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291fifth

The coin may deserve a premium but the holder does not.

Bochiman

A couple of points...

* Thanks to those that focused on the holder part. I am a "buy the coin not the holder" person, but I know some like holders. I know there are thoughts around how long things have been in holders.
* Weiss...thank you for your post as it stayed spot on with what I was asking.
* For the LOVE OF GOD! People. If you are going to go astray in someone else's thread, and you want to post coin pictures (and I LOVE coin pictures) BUT you ARE going astray and posting so many that people have to keep scrolling, then create your own thread. Either create your own thread or learn how to post smaller, thumbnail, sized pictures.

May seem like I am being cranky, and I may be, but it seems that people with class in a thread stay with what the point of the thread was and don't try to make it about themselves...over and over. Showing "a" coin to illustrate a point, is fine, imho. Showing 3, 4, 6+ (or NINETEEN), so that people have to scroll (particularly the OP who is interested in what people are saying), is just rude. Especially when someone is viewing on a smartphone.

I see this happening, over and over, where people so much want to show their coins (that's a good thing) that they do it whenever they can, in someone else's threads. Everyone has nice coins! Start your own threads and share them. It's easy and it shows respect for the original thread poster, and participants.
I just find the way it is done to be disrespectful

Nic

Yes if the coin is nice.

Realone did you a favor. Nice to see someone post pics of great coins.

TopographicOceans

Of all the obsolete holders, only small ANACS holders should hold a premium because they are the perfect size and extra cool.

Meltdown

I will pay a slight premium for the holder if the coin inside it is deserving. I like NGC fatties and have quite a few. I'm a cheapskate slab collector but have coughed up extra for the right holder & coin.

TwoSides2aCoin

What 291Fifth said about wraps it up. The coin speaks volumes. The holder and stickers are like the "wow factors".

Walkerguy21D

The coin is the primary thing, as most others have said. I do agree the old holders add some coolness though, but an average coin in an old
holder is still just an average coin.

That said, I'd pay a premium for every coin posted in this thread!

roadrunner

Yes, the holder can deserve a premium. I've paid it many times. Not all, but some. And here's why.

1. Proven to be stable due to 25+ years in the holder. You can't say that about something graded in the past several years.
2. The older holders are known for sometimes being very conservatively graded. Not all are picked over. Fresh, older collections and holdings still pop up from time to time.

Let's face it. Someone (at least Realone and myself) would be willing to take more of a gamble and pay more for something in a 25-28 year old holder than something that was slabbed in the past 0-10 years. And the reasoning is the chances for an under-grade from that older holder are far superior than the newer holder.....over a large random sample group. I go with the odds. If the same quality coin were in the older holder I'd tend to pay more, especially if I really thought it was under-graded. It's not as easy to shell out big bucks for something newly slabbed, and pay 1/2-1 grade premium just because "you think it's nice." Having the older holder to fall back on can easily raise the price on what I'd be willing to pay. Same comment for fresh rattlers, ANACS gold foil hologram, and PCI early slabs (mid-1990's).

Example:

The last Connecticut commemorative I bought was an NGC old fatty with the gold stenciled reverse. NGC MS66. The coin's obverse was a mixture of eye popping Christmas colors. Never saw a CT before with vibrant greens, reds, silver, and gold. I paid essentially 2X the standard MS66 price. The coin wasn't an upgrade candidate, just solid or higher end for the grade. Had that same exact coin been in a current MS66 holder at the time, no way I'd have paid more than a 20-50% premium for it.

SeattleSlammer

<< <i>Not in my lifetime would I do that. >>




Hey now I once said that about a lot of things ....

SoCalBigMark

Small coins don't present well and seem to darken in NLF's. The tens of thousands of Morgan dollars are just barely there with the latest tightening standards on them.

Christos

Buy the coin not the holder! sorry could not help it.

Bochiman

<< <i>Yes if the coin is nice.

Realone did you a favor. Nice to see someone post pics of great coins. >>



No, he really, honestly, didn't. If he wants to post his coins like that, which I think he should, he should give them their own thread which they deserve.

WaterSport

No, No and No. Remember the first one is plastic, the second one is sticker and the third is a personal preference.

WS

DennisH

No on all counts.

Dave99B

Not for me ...

Dave

P.S. I prefer 'chubby'.

bjamin

<< <i>

<< <i>Yes if the coin is nice.

Realone did you a favor. Nice to see someone post pics of great coins. >>



No, he really, honestly, didn't. If he wants to post his coins like that, which I think he should, he should give them their own thread which they deserve. >>



These have been shown here before.

mozin

I will not pay a premium for any grading service special holder whatsoever, new or old. I intentionally had all my PCGS rattlers reholdered, because I did not like the holders, and they did not fit properly into the PCGS plastic boxes. I had the old fat NGC holders replaced because they leaked too much air, and they did not fit into the NGC plastic boxes easily.

CAC is a different ballgame. I will pay a considerable premium for PCGS graded coins with the CAC sticker. I wish I were able to attend major coin shows, but those days have past for me. The CAC stickers give me confidence to bid higher.

BG

<< <i>Do YOU pay a premium, or would you be willing to, for a coin in an old NGC fatty holder? >>


Yes, depending on the coin.



<< <i>How about one with a green cac sticker? >>


Yes, depending on the coin.



<< <i>How about one with toned copper (IHC)? What about a proof? >>


Yes to both, depending on the coin.

I'm currently working on an early commemorative set in early NGC and PCGS holders. It still depends on the coin not the holder.

asheland

<< <i>None of them deserve a premium if you don't care for the coin that is in them. >>

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Walkerfan

<< <i>I will pay a slight premium for the holder if the coin inside it is deserving. I like NGC fatties and have quite a few. >>

Unknown

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Boosibri

My two:

stman

Boosibri - Are all those lines in the open fields on the 2nd one you just posted from circulation? Thanks.
Maybe some are die-polish? Maybe some are?????

Boosibri

<< <i>Boosibri - Are all those lines in the open fields on the 2nd one you just posted from circulation? Thanks. >>



Perhaps. The coin is heavily prooflike. The coin came from Jimmy Hayes type set to David Akers to Ed Milas.

stman

So probably die-polish. Who owned it before doesn't explain anything to me

Bochiman

Nice couple of coins, Boos.....
Question, given the types of coins they are, and the levels, may I ask if there are reasons you would share on why you are keeping them in their holders?
Ie...you just don't care about the holder? Haven't had a chance to submit? etc.

For mine, I care more about the coins than the holders, which is why I bought them in the first place, but I do appreciate what an old holder can mean. Of course, IHC proofs that are toned, are, to me, harder to appreciate in those old, thicker, inserts, so that is weighing on me currently.

crazyhounddog

<< <i>A couple of points...

* Thanks to those that focused on the holder part. I am a "buy the coin not the holder" person, but I know some like holders. I know there are thoughts around how long things have been in holders.
* Weiss...thank you for your post as it stayed spot on with what I was asking.
* For the LOVE OF GOD! People. If you are going to go astray in someone else's thread, and you want to post coin pictures (and I LOVE coin pictures) BUT you ARE going astray and posting so many that people have to keep scrolling, then create your own thread. Either create your own thread or learn how to post smaller, thumbnail, sized pictures.

May seem like I am being cranky, and I may be, but it seems that people with class in a thread stay with what the point of the thread was and don't try to make it about themselves...over and over. Showing "a" coin to illustrate a point, is fine, imho. Showing 3, 4, 6+ (or NINETEEN), so that people have to scroll (particularly the OP who is interested in what people are saying), is just rude. Especially when someone is viewing on a smartphone.

I see this happening, over and over, where people so much want to show their coins (that's a good thing) that they do it whenever they can, in someone else's threads. Everyone has nice coins! Start your own threads and share them. It's easy and it shows respect for the original thread poster, and participants.
I just find the way it is done to be disrespectful >>



Realone, you can post as many images of your beautiful coins "on Any Of My Threads" as you would like, they're all beautiful. Bochiman, why are you so angry? I don't get it.

Boosibri

<< <i>Nice couple of coins, Boos.....
Question, given the types of coins they are, and the levels, may I ask if there are reasons you would share on why you are keeping them in their holders?
Ie...you just don't care about the holder? Haven't had a chance to submit? etc.

For mine, I care more about the coins than the holders, which is why I bought them in the first place, but I do appreciate what an old holder can mean. Of course, IHC proofs that are toned, are, to me, harder to appreciate in those old, thicker, inserts, so that is weighing on me currently. >>



Well a few reasons, in no particular order...

1) These coins came from the Ed Milas collection and are in the holders from his sale in 1995. The majority of the Philly coins came to market as a part of the New Orleans Collection at the April CSNS. The sale was split up by 3-5 dealers and almost all were cracked an upgraded. I know of three from the sale which are still in their original holders.

2) The coins are a cool pair, sequentially numbered circa 1995 holder. Makes them a super cool pair.

3) The older holder clearly shows that these two condition census coins haven;t been doctored, at least in the last 20 years.

4) The older holders give them a fresh appeal vs. a new PCGS slab. When it comes time to sell that can only add to the appeal.

It was a fairly easy decision for me to keep them in the old holders despite the fact that my whole 1842 set is in PCGS plastic. I just thought the above far outweighed the set holder consistency.

Unknown

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Bochiman

Thank you for answering.

Fair enough on those points, and certainly understandable. You definitely have good reasons that my particular coins don't, though that part about 20+ years is also on my mind for mine.

Thanks again.

asheland

Boosibri, I like that gold in the NGC fatty holder.