If people selling say "way below greysheet", why...
piecesofme
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bother mentioning the greysheet price? Is it still really referred to in this day and age with real world pricing that can easily be viewed on places such as eBay? Most people have cell phones with internet that can be pulled up anywhere for pricing, so it's not like you have to carry around a pc/laptop to see what something costs.
There's a reason the item is "below greysheet", think about it.
How many still use greysheet and genuinely figure that value into what they're willing to offer? I'm curious. I still may peek at it, but I factor in a minimum 20% discount to whatever it says, and yes dealers have taken my offer that way. I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete.
There's a reason the item is "below greysheet", think about it.
How many still use greysheet and genuinely figure that value into what they're willing to offer? I'm curious. I still may peek at it, but I factor in a minimum 20% discount to whatever it says, and yes dealers have taken my offer that way. I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete.
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<< <i>bother mentioning the greysheet price? Is it still really referred to in this day and age with real world pricing that can easily be viewed on places such as eBay? Most people have cell phones with internet that can be pulled up anywhere for pricing, so it's not like you have to carry around a pc/laptop to see what something costs.
There's a reason the item is "below greysheet", think about it.
How many still use greysheet and genuinely figure that value into what they're willing to offer? I'm curious. I still may peek at it, but I factor in a minimum 20% discount to whatever it says, and yes dealers have taken my offer that way. I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete. >>
Good point. With Collectors.com, one has access to over 1.1 million coins for sale with real prices.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Some information reflects the current market, other does not. I know a number of coins that dealers would be thrilled to sell 20% back of Greysheet and other coins dealers would gladly buy at 200% Greysheet.
Price guides are valuable as they put in one place the aggregate data that collectors want. Searching a website, such as eBay, may not time-efficient when you need some basic information quickly. Relying on retail sites like Collectors.com (which is a great site) only yields the pricing of coins for sale, not what the coins actually sold for.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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<< <i> I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete. >>
Good point. With Collectors.com, one has access to over 1.1 million coins for sale with real prices. >>
It would be beneficial to the hobby for all the pricing guides to show TWO values for each coin. A consensus WHOLESALE PRICE and a consensus RETAIL PRICE. The "customer" would then have a fair indication of the value of any given coin that he is wishing to buy (RETAIL) or wishing to sell (WHOLESALE). Of course, the actual transaction would be negotiated and probably fall somewhere in between the two values.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Go to any Show ....the Green sheet for notes ,or Greysheet are on just every dealers table
We are fortunate in numismatics that the discounts aren't deeper than they actually are.....I am generalizing here but at a typical sports card show it is not uncommon to find deals at "50% of guide" and at stamp shows "a third of catalog" is mentioned frequently
You do raise a good point that if the real price is one-third of the catalog (using the stamp example) then the catalog should be revised to reflect that.....but its not
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from this statement it sounds like the GreySheet is pretty useful to you.
<< <i>I still may peek at it, but I factor in a minimum 20% discount to whatever it says, and yes dealers have taken my offer that way. I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete.
from this statement it sounds like the GreySheet is pretty useful to you. >>
Glad to see I wasn't the only one to notice his discrepancy.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I feel greysheet has become almost obsolete. >>
Good point. With Collectors.com, one has access to over 1.1 million coins for sale with real prices. >>
It would be beneficial to the hobby for all the pricing guides to show TWO values for each coin. A consensus WHOLESALE PRICE and a consensus RETAIL PRICE. The "customer" would then have a fair indication of the value of any given coin that he is wishing to buy (RETAIL) or wishing to sell (WHOLESALE). Of course, the actual transaction would be negotiated and probably fall somewhere in between the two values.
Steve
Half jokingly, all the guides do have that, just need a calculator (or be able to do quick math in your head). For example take the PCGS guide, the prices listed are retail. For wholesale, multiply by .5 to get the wholesale price. The lesson collectors need to learn is that price depends on the relationship between buyer/seller, the venue, the size of the deal, and for higher grade coins the perceived quality for the grade.
/edit to add: as to the original question, why do people do that? Because it gets attention. Coin collectors tend to be slow moving, so many still pay attention to grey sheet. I confess that if someone on BST lists certified coins such as Morgan dollars (or some of the other most popular series) and says 10% back of sheet, I sit up and pay attention. I know I am not the only one. So why? Because it works.
all this is part of the reason I always suggest to collectors that they get accustomed to selling. without knowing how to sell/where to sell/who might buy your items a collector sets themselves up for a one-way-ride on the LowBall Express.
Maybe the grey sheet users are not offering "fair" prices. Show me THE COIN. I'll give you a bid. You see if it's over or under.
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<< <i>Most US coins are actually very common. There is no reason to overpay for them. Unless you have exceptionally choice coins, and very few qualify as such, there is no reason to pay sheet money for them. Think like a dealer and buy like a dealer. >>
This concept works only if you know how to grade coins and are able to spot problems and coin doctoring. A lot of times when something is offered to the general public for the "Gray Sheet Price" or below, there is some over grading involved. When I was a dealer I willing to pay the sheet prices for the coins I really wanted to put into inventory and was able to sell them for a mark-up in just about all cases. This included my dealer to dealer business.
If you are refering to modern coins (most pieces from the mid 1930s and later), what you have written here is true. You should be be able to buy those coins "cheap," and a large majority of them are "common." If you are collecting something that does not show up everyday, then the situation is a bit different. Yes, those coins can trade above and below "the sheet," but the "the sheet" was a decent guide.
Now that I've been out of the dealer game for a number years, perhaps "the sheet" has lost touch with reality for most things. That seems to be true for the coins I want to collect now. Perhaps some dealers than address this issue.
Collectors buy what they like, Dealers buy what they can sell.
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<< <i>Coin has to be a total turd to sell below grey sheet. >>
Well you say all coins that dealers buy are turds,if bought under bid ... no way ... I see the coins my dealer friend buys at coin shows he attends .. His highest buy price is 20% less than the bid .. lower prices for Modern Silver comms....higher for Gold .. higher for rare coins ... . never seen turds from his buy box
It makes the coin game more "fun" when most people don't know how to grade accurately, price accurately, or determine surviving populations accurately. Looking at any one of the popular price guides will get you 25% of the way home with respect to a slab in hand.
For example, if we're talking about modern proof sets (1950-Date), a price guide like the CDN can do a good job on reporting the market. (Just don't assume that when the guide reports a price, that you can easily find someone to match it.)
On the other hand, reporting the market for a rare date Seated coin in top grades is problematic, because demand is highly variable, and because the quality-for-the-grade can make a huge difference. For such coins, it would be best for guides like the CDN to represent prices as estimates, not as bids and asks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm sorry that you are confused about me being confused as well.
It's kind of funny it was even copied and pasted, but i'll mention it again. I said "I may take a peek at it" meaning that if I can't find any current info. somewhere other than the GS, I will then take a peek at it for guidance. So in that sense, it's beneficial I guess. I should've been more clear, but doesn't change the fact that for me, it's the last thing I check, not the first and I was just curious how others approached it. Good response, I like that it's being discussed.
I was at a dealer last week and there was a 70+ year old guy haggling with the dealer and even HE (the 70 year old) was using eBay as his reference...and he was fully aware to take 10% off the hammer to determine what the seller actually netted. Just thought it was amusing that a 70 year old has more less abandoned using the GS.
You have to remember when the iron is hot to strike.
<< <i>what I infer from the OP is that it is vital to know the proper "market" of your item to maximize the return on whatever you are selling. we discuss this with routine here and yet some still don't understand, perhaps that's the reason for the OP's confusion
I'm sorry that you are confused about me being confused as well.
It's kind of funny it was even copied and pasted, but i'll mention it again. I said "I may take a peek at it" meaning that if I can't find any current info. somewhere other than the GS, I will then take a peek at it for guidance. So in that sense, it's beneficial I guess. I should've been more clear, but doesn't change the fact that for me, it's the last thing I check, not the first and I was just curious how others approached it. Good response, I like that it's being discussed.
I was at a dealer last week and there was a 70+ year old guy haggling with the dealer and even HE (the 70 year old) was using eBay as his reference...and he was fully aware to take 10% off the hammer to determine what the seller actually netted. Just thought it was amusing that a 70 year old has more less abandoned using the GS. >>
Why would it matter what the coin netted? The bidder paid the full price and not the net price. Have you ever offered a dealer 10% off of his sticker price because he'd net 10% less if he sold it on eBay?
I bet that 70 YO probly learned somewhere along the line that GS stands for getting screwed.
<< <i>Coin has to be a total turd to sell below grey sheet. >>
Not true.
There were some areas of the Gray Sheet when the prices to too high. The best a dealer could hope to get was 100% of "bid." This applies to things like common date Indian cents in G-VG by the roll, rolls of full date Buffalo Nickels and almost all modern Proof sets and commemorative coins. I don't know the dealer who supports those bids, but if he or she exists, I never met them.
How much under or over Bid will be partially decided on by the buyer and seller.
I have been offered coins at 20% back of bid and have declined. I have been offered coins at 20% and gladly bought.
Auction prices you will see have ranges of apx 40% on any given coin. This is because they generally all revolve around greysheet. Seeing that the last 20 coins at auction sell for $500-$600 with 2 selling for over $1000 makes you think the coin is worth $500-$600. What you cant tell unless you look at each of the 20 coins is that almost all of them were sub-par coins and the 2 that sold for over $1000 were the 2 A-B quality coins and worth the extra couple of hundred dollars.
In the vast majority of situations you will find that PQ coins do not sell for under greysheet bid. That is because the greysheet becomes the basal value that "anyone-or most dealers" would pay for an accurately PQ coin for the date/grade.
I feel the greysheet is a key pricing index that when read correctly is very important for pricing coins. knowing how to read comes with experience.
One of my mentors told me I have 100 coins in my 2 cases. I want to make $40 a coin. Pigs eat ~ Hogs get slaughtered.
<< <i>Most dealers use Greysheet as reference point .. but also check and use Collectors to verify Greysheet's prices for low prices
Go to any Show ....the Green sheet for notes ,or Greysheet are on just every dealers table >>
I dont believe that any dealer I frequent has a Greysheet.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Most dealers use Greysheet as reference point .. but also check and use Collectors to verify Greysheet's prices for low prices
Go to any Show ....the Green sheet for notes ,or Greysheet are on just every dealers table >>
I dont believe that any dealer I frequent has a Greysheet. >>
I really can't believe that the dealers (more than a dozen within 20 miles of me) are that much different from others around the country. Every single one of them uses the GS as a pricing reference. Are the dealers you frequent in the US?
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this is funny, I would use eBay if I can't find an item on the GreySheet!!
<< <i>Someone show me the line where I can buy PCGS/CAC Morgans for 20% back of Grey Sheet. >>
Show the line where you can buy NGC cac morgans for 10% back of bid.
i dont think you can do that either.
<< <i>Someone show me the line where I can buy PCGS/CAC Morgans for 20% back of Grey Sheet. >>
Lol It is called work....all need to do get yourself a table at some large show ..have good rep,, and have at it .. my dealer friend bought 8 CAC Morgan's at the ANA.. all but 2 were below bid..... the reason I know... I asked what he paid for the one I bought from him looking for a deal
Of course everyone knows this, right? Any COLLECTOR who wants to BUY coins from a DEALER at 20% back of bid will find that IF the dealer agrees to the transaction, the collector has really just bought a pig in a poke. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
This is one type of business model.
<< <i>If you really want to know what the prices are you should be trying to sell, not trying to buy. >>
I rarely sell, but when I do I usually sell on eBay. Last numismatic items I sold were BU rolls, and I listed them at GS "ask". Crickets. After a week I dropped them to "bid". I got a couple watchers but no bids. Changed to BIN at "bid". More watchers, no buyers. I then dropped them to 10% below bid and they sold in a couple hours.
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<< <i>It is used everywhere at shows. >>
This ^
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To speak to the OP's experience of dealers selling at 20% below the published bid - this only shows that a dealer is willing to wholesale to his customers rather the try and find the last nickel in the item he wants to sell. It is market dynamics, not a slight against the greysheet's accuracy.
<< <i>One of my mentors told me I have 100 coins in my 2 cases. I want to make $40 a coin. Pigs eat ~ Hogs get slaughtered. >>
I don't understand this comment.
At a large national show, if you have 2 cases, sell all 100 coins and make $40 each, you'll lose money after you pay your table cost, transportation, meals, lodging, etc.
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<< <i>One of my mentors told me I have 100 coins in my 2 cases. I want to make $40 a coin. Pigs eat ~ Hogs get slaughtered. >>
I don't understand this comment.
At a large national show, if you have 2 cases, sell all 100 coins and make $40 each, you'll lose money after you pay your table cost, transportation, meals, lodging, etc. >>
It means he moved inventory. He looked at each coin as a sell not how much $$ he could squeeze out of it.
He was the type dealer excited to go to the next show, not the one complaining at every show.
Thank you, someone finally gets that after building a relationship with dealers over the past what seems like hundred years, dealers will in fact let a non-dealer friend get a deal every now and then, especially if it's mentioned by the buyer that "hey, I'vee seen this coin in your showcase the last 3 times I've been here."
As a student of the series, you know more than the typical reader of the greysheet, so I would qualify your statement as "Most people who collect this series know...". As far as your demand that "You look at current auction records..." also assumes the person has knowledge of how to spot an overgraded coin in a slab and a properly graded one or a shot-upgrade. The greysheet (and coinfacts, coin world trends, etc..) should be the ones looking at the auctions and weeding out the overgraded and shot-upgrade outliers in formulating the market prices. That would be to the benefit of the market, so long as we accept their judgment.
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<< <i>One of my mentors told me I have 100 coins in my 2 cases. I want to make $40 a coin. Pigs eat ~ Hogs get slaughtered. >>
I don't understand this comment.
At a large national show, if you have 2 cases, sell all 100 coins and make $40 each, you'll lose money after you pay your table cost, transportation, meals, lodging, etc. >>
Making $40 on a coin is way different than marking up each coin by $40. Making $40 means that's the profit AFTER expenses. Making $40 on a coin means that you made $40 if your only expense was the cost of the coin and nothing else.
Thank you, someone finally gets that after building a relationship with dealers over the past what seems like hundred years, dealers will in fact let a non-dealer friend get a deal every now and then
what was stated and what you inferred isn't necessarily accurate. you can use the words "wholesale" and "retail" however you choose tied to GreySheet bid/ask but in the end it only reflects what a specific dealer's chosen business model might be.
This is misleading.
As others have said already, sometimes the published "bid" is too high, and sometimes it's too low. So if a coin is priced to you at 20% below bid, you can be reasonably confident that the "bid" is too high. But you still don't know if the price you've been quoted is "wholesale" or "retail". In fact, the coin may only be worth 40% below bid to most dealers, and 20% below could be "retail".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.