Go to a small show or most B&M's and you will se that it is still very relevant. Participants of the forum can get a very inaccurate view of the whole coin market. There is a world out there that does not deal in thousand dollar coins or care much about slabs. >>
I agree.....
Good luck with the new venture John. The fun is, I'm sure, grasping a new challenge........
So why should they have access to wholesale information when they haven't paid their dues to be in business.
Are wholesale coin valuation numbers a secret?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
<< The name of the publication is: "The Coin Dealer Newsletter" and is supposed to give an indication of what WHOLESALE prices are. It is not "The Coin Collector Newsletter" and the general coin collecting public should not have access to what wholesale prices are. There are plenty of good publications out there such as the Red Book, Coin Prices, etc. that are give a fairly appoximate indication of what retail prices are. Rarely do you see a collector walking around with a Red Book, but the shows are filled with Coin Collectors walking around with a Grey Sheet in their back pocket trying to buy at half of Grey Sheet prices, and sell at double Grey Sheet prices. These are not dealers and do not have a retail Sales Tax Number, do no Sales Tax reporting, refuse to pay Sales Tax on their purchases, have to pay all the expenses of having a shop, buying a bourse table, travel expenses, insurance, salaries, etc. , and put their lives on the line everday just to stay in business. So why should they have access to wholesale information when they haven't paid their dues to be in business. >>
This reminds me of a local shop that used to be here , while I was there a guy came in to look at some coins and asked for prices, he then asked for the grey-sheet, and the dealer thru him out of the store. Told him there was not any way he should be able to view it and its for dealers only and so forth. Nothing wrong with dealers making a fair or even good profit, but come on. This shop was notorious for buying at 30-50% of sheet and selling at ttrends.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
Private information? Isn't that whole premise silly when at many major coin shows throughout the year the "sheet" has had its own table (for years) and sells all (7) of its publications for under $18 total to any Tom, Dick or Harry who has $18 to spend? Wondercoin
Edited to add... Still waiting for John to answer my question.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< The name of the publication is: "The Coin Dealer Newsletter" and is supposed to give an indication of what WHOLESALE prices are. It is not "The Coin Collector Newsletter" and the general coin collecting public should not have access to what wholesale prices are. There are plenty of good publications out there such as the Red Book, Coin Prices, etc. that are give a fairly approximate indication of what retail prices are. Rarely do you see a collector walking around with a Red Book, but the shows are filled with Coin Collectors walking around with a Grey Sheet in their back pocket trying to buy at half of Grey Sheet prices, and sell at double Grey Sheet prices. These are not dealers and do not have a retail Sales Tax Number, do no Sales Tax reporting, refuse to pay Sales Tax on their purchases, have to pay all the expenses of having a shop, buying a bourse table, travel expenses, insurance, salaries, etc. , and put their lives on the line everyday just to stay in business. So why should they have access to wholesale information when they haven't paid their dues to be in business. >>
Sounds like the above post is borne out of frustration, and I can certainly relate. When I see people playing dealer with outdated photocopies of someone else's Greysheet or demanding to see mine, I know that by and large nothing's likely going to come of any interaction with them.
In its infancy, CDN was indeed just that-the coin DEALER newsletter...a dealer-only publication where you had to show verification of same to subscribe- and the numbers were by and large accurate, true wholesale levels. Today however, they'll take anyone's money...even some of the ads are geared less towards dealers and moreso toward the general public now...and the values are largely irrelevant. Hopefully new blood will change this. Good luck to John.
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels.
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels. >>
1) No one would consign coins to auctions where lower prices were guaranteed.
2) Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead.
<< <i>Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
Awhile back someone suggested to me that auction houses should delay publishing PRLs for a few weeks in order to preserve the "dealer advantage" of being in person at the auction. This person was completely serious.
<< <i>Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
Awhile back someone suggested to me that auction houses should delay publishing PRLs for a few weeks in order to preserve the "dealer advantage" of being in person at the auction. This person was completely serious. >>
I remember someone posting something similar on these boards.
I am going to the Fort Worth show tomororrow, set aside the whole day to reprice my stock, so I bought an online set of everything...$29. The account name and password I have used for many years no longer worked, so I had to create a new ACCOUNT. Download error so I called customer service, the "everything" download is broke, but if I had bought them one at a time (for $65) it would have worked. So sorry, she would email me the major ones . 5 hours later, NOTHING, they have left for the day, so I had to buy them again one at a time...and pay double , that worked. Hope they make good on this mess.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels. >>
1) No one would consign coins to auctions where lower prices were guaranteed.
2) Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
1) It's impossible to "guarantee" lower prices for the same reason it's impossible to guarantee higher prices...that aside, inferring that no one would patronize a wholesale auction because they can get retail otherwise is like saying dealers won't sell to other dealers at a show because they can get retail OTC. Yet the biggest money volume at a show usually changes hands on setup day(s) when no OTC buyers are yet present. 2) Hogwash. Many if not most dealers buy at auctions periodically if not regularly, and invariably market their purchases at some point just like anyone else who buys at auction. And btw no one posited auction-ONLY buying as a "primary business model" so not sure where you got that inference.
I have not subscribed to CDN in years. I do buy a "full set" every time I am at the show or buy them one-off when I need them on-line. I am currently a Coinfacts subscriber. I believe that if CDN wase made available using a reasonable subscription model, using only actual market data, some way to directly tie TPG (or lack thereof) influence to price, and the ability to flag outliers (dog vs. GEM prices) wrapped in an efficient UI that supports both the desktop and mobile space, I would once again become a subscriber.
I know that is a tall order, but I know it can be done.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
I like the way John is running it. There are simply more grades listed.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
So I will ask again... Are the prices in the new greysheet......... bid, ask or neither?
For the first time yesterday I noticed that above the commen section there was a notation that ask should be calculated at 10% above the bid price listed. Could have been there since they removed the ask prices but not sure.
Seems to me that prices have been moving more frequently than they used to, and in the series that I follow they are starting to become more in line with reality, but I still use coinfacts for pricing more than I use CDN. Although because many dealers still use it like its the be all end all, I reference CDN prices when purchasing as well. Like all guides sometimes they are too low on actual prices and sometimes they are too high.
Never fails at every show I set up there are dealers coming to my table trying to sell coins @below sheet when sheet is so far out of actual pricing they get mad when I make an offer. Risky area for the new publishers to move prices too fast and have dealers inventories drop in value dramatically in just a week. They will eventually come more in line I think but have to move gradually so they don't piss off and lose their customer base.
Thank you all for the feedback. Some answers to recent questions in order:
LanceNewmanOCC: we just switched to a new subscription management system, so it might be easiest for you to email orders@greysheet.com to get your old master download. We still offer it.
machoponcho: thank you! We are working very hard on this. Asks were essentially removed from the print publication to make room for bigger type-face and more pricing columns. We only have "Ask" prices for proof sets based on very specific (and legitimate) requests for such.
thebigeng: The listed (new) prices in all of the Greysheet publications are "Bid" indications. "Ask" was always estimated at approximately 10% over bid, which we felt made little sense in the practical world. Sellers will always "Ask" what they want, not what a sheet tells them to ask, though the proof sets are an exception to that rule.
bidask: True, however, these parties have NOTHING to do with the editorial or pricing on the sheets. We are fully independent and my team and I operate that way.
bigjpst: Actually, we just added in that statement about the calculation of ask prices in the most recent publication. This was in response to feedback, which we constantly monitor and try to heed where ever possible. We are working our way through all the sheets to adjust prices to current levels. In some (many) cases, the CDN hadn't adjusted prices for years so the adjustments can look a little painful. However, I don't think there's any harm in publishing accurate price data, rather than arbitrarily easing into the right price levels. We've heard this argument numerous times, and frankly, I feel we have a responsibility to price as accurately to the market as we can. As an example, if gold spot price drops $100 today, do you want me to tell you it only dropped $20 so you feel better? Of course not. It's important to understand that we believe that our "Bid" prices are "indications" of market value. The valuation of rare coins is not an exact science, and we are just one tool a buyer/seller should use in determining value. You should use auction prices realized and Coin Universe pricing as well to determine what you value a coin at. The important thing for us is that we get our part right. And that's wholesale price data. Also, we strongly advocate that collectors and investors seek professional advice from dealers before spending real money on coins. There are too many variables to know and understand to go this alone. Build a relationship with someone you trust.
thebigeng: great idea to add more pricing columns. We may eventually add these. For now, we want to be sure we are pricing the coins we list today properly before adding new columns. We have already added pricing columns in high grade for Washington Quarters, Walkers, AU58 Morgans, etc, so it's all on the table.
Thanks again for the feedback.
John Feigenbaum
Publisher, CDN
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Thanks John for your response. Like I posted I have noticed movement in areas where you are right there hadn't been change in years. Many coins where I have happily paid multiples of sheet in the past.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>But will it ever become relevant again? >>
Go to a small show or most B&M's and you will se that it is still very relevant. Participants of the forum can get a very inaccurate view of the whole coin market. There is a world out there that does not deal in thousand dollar coins or care much about slabs. >>
I agree.....
Good luck with the new venture John.
The fun is, I'm sure, grasping a new challenge........
Are wholesale coin valuation numbers a secret?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
Rarely do you see a collector walking around with a Red Book, but the shows are filled with Coin Collectors walking around with a Grey Sheet in their back pocket trying to buy at half of Grey Sheet prices, and sell at double Grey Sheet prices. These are not dealers and do not have a retail Sales Tax Number, do no Sales Tax reporting, refuse to pay Sales Tax on their purchases, have to pay all the expenses of having a shop, buying a bourse table, travel expenses, insurance, salaries, etc. , and put their lives on the line everday just to stay in business. So why should they have access to wholesale information when they haven't paid their dues to be in business. >>
This reminds me of a local shop that used to be here , while I was there a guy came in to look at some coins and asked for prices, he then asked for the grey-sheet, and the dealer thru him out of the store. Told him there was not any way he should be able to view it and its for dealers only and so forth. Nothing wrong with dealers making a fair or even good profit, but come on. This shop was notorious for buying at 30-50% of sheet and selling at ttrends.
By the way they are out of business!!
It will when ebay becomes irrelevant.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
Edited to add... Still waiting for John to answer my question.
Thinner, too
Just keep them front page stories coming !
Rarely do you see a collector walking around with a Red Book, but the shows are filled with Coin Collectors walking around with a Grey Sheet in their back pocket trying to buy at half of Grey Sheet prices, and sell at double Grey Sheet prices. These are not dealers and do not have a retail Sales Tax Number, do no Sales Tax reporting, refuse to pay Sales Tax on their purchases, have to pay all the expenses of having a shop, buying a bourse table, travel expenses, insurance, salaries, etc. , and put their lives on the line everyday just to stay in business. So why should they have access to wholesale information when they haven't paid their dues to be in business. >>
Sounds like the above post is borne out of frustration, and I can certainly relate. When I see people playing dealer with outdated photocopies of someone else's Greysheet or demanding to see mine, I know that by and large nothing's likely going to come of any interaction with them.
In its infancy, CDN was indeed just that-the coin DEALER newsletter...a dealer-only publication where you had to show verification of same to subscribe- and the numbers were by and large accurate, true wholesale levels. Today however, they'll take anyone's money...even some of the ads are geared less towards dealers and moreso toward the general public now...and the values are largely irrelevant. Hopefully new blood will change this. Good luck to John.
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels. >>
1) No one would consign coins to auctions where lower prices were guaranteed.
2) Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
Awhile back someone suggested to me that auction houses should delay publishing PRLs for a few weeks in order to preserve the "dealer advantage" of being in person at the auction. This person was completely serious.
<< <i>
<< <i>Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
Awhile back someone suggested to me that auction houses should delay publishing PRLs for a few weeks in order to preserve the "dealer advantage" of being in person at the auction. This person was completely serious. >>
I remember someone posting something similar on these boards.
Latin American Collection
is broke, but if I had bought them one at a time (for $65) it would have worked. So sorry, she would email me the major ones . 5 hours later, NOTHING, they have left for the day, so I had to buy them again one at a time...and pay double , that worked. Hope they make good on this mess.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<<There should be dealer only auctions like they have for cars where the general public does not get to play.>>
I realize that was said in jest but it is possible that an idea like this might actually get support from dealers trying to buy things at a level that affords them at least some margin rather than having to contend with collectors who run things up to and over retail levels. >>
1) No one would consign coins to auctions where lower prices were guaranteed.
2) Evolve or die. If dealers add no value to the relationship other than making the coin available from an auction why do are they needed in the age of the internet. Great dealers continue to be great because they bring coins to market rather than buy out of auctions to mark the coins-up to sell to retail customers as a primary business model. That model is disrupted and dead. >>
1) It's impossible to "guarantee" lower prices for the same reason it's impossible to guarantee higher prices...that aside, inferring that no one would patronize a wholesale auction because they can get retail otherwise is like saying dealers won't sell to other dealers at a show because they can get retail OTC. Yet the biggest money volume at a show usually changes hands on setup day(s) when no OTC buyers are yet present.
2) Hogwash. Many if not most dealers buy at auctions periodically if not regularly, and invariably market their purchases at some point just like anyone else who buys at auction. And btw no one posited auction-ONLY buying as a "primary business model" so not sure where you got that inference.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>But will it ever become relevant again? >>
Huh? How can you possibly ask such a question? Do you mean accurate? maybe not, but relevant? I challenge you to name any coin publication more so.
I know that is a tall order, but I know it can be done.
anyone know what the new equivalent to the old digital master download is?
cant seem to figure it out now after scouring the site. i see options for singles.
hope we dont have to do them one by one now.
kind of looks like - 7 Pack of Newletters $45
.
It looks like the old package deals are gone.
Yes, I was looking yesterday.
It looks like the old package deals are gone.
i will probably buy the $45 pack to see if it is the same. kind of sounds like it. will report back.
.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
So I will ask again... Are the prices in the new greysheet......... bid, ask or neither?
They are bid.
So I will ask again... Are the prices in the new greysheet......... bid, ask or neither?
For the first time yesterday I noticed that above the commen section there was a notation that ask should be calculated at 10% above the bid price listed. Could have been there since they removed the ask prices but not sure.
Seems to me that prices have been moving more frequently than they used to, and in the series that I follow they are starting to become more in line with reality, but I still use coinfacts for pricing more than I use CDN. Although because many dealers still use it like its the be all end all, I reference CDN prices when purchasing as well. Like all guides sometimes they are too low on actual prices and sometimes they are too high.
Never fails at every show I set up there are dealers coming to my table trying to sell coins @below sheet when sheet is so far out of actual pricing they get mad when I make an offer. Risky area for the new publishers to move prices too fast and have dealers inventories drop in value dramatically in just a week. They will eventually come more in line I think but have to move gradually so they don't piss off and lose their customer base.
My Ebay Store
LanceNewmanOCC: we just switched to a new subscription management system, so it might be easiest for you to email orders@greysheet.com to get your old master download. We still offer it.
machoponcho: thank you! We are working very hard on this. Asks were essentially removed from the print publication to make room for bigger type-face and more pricing columns. We only have "Ask" prices for proof sets based on very specific (and legitimate) requests for such.
thebigeng: The listed (new) prices in all of the Greysheet publications are "Bid" indications. "Ask" was always estimated at approximately 10% over bid, which we felt made little sense in the practical world. Sellers will always "Ask" what they want, not what a sheet tells them to ask, though the proof sets are an exception to that rule.
bidask: True, however, these parties have NOTHING to do with the editorial or pricing on the sheets. We are fully independent and my team and I operate that way.
bigjpst: Actually, we just added in that statement about the calculation of ask prices in the most recent publication. This was in response to feedback, which we constantly monitor and try to heed where ever possible. We are working our way through all the sheets to adjust prices to current levels. In some (many) cases, the CDN hadn't adjusted prices for years so the adjustments can look a little painful. However, I don't think there's any harm in publishing accurate price data, rather than arbitrarily easing into the right price levels. We've heard this argument numerous times, and frankly, I feel we have a responsibility to price as accurately to the market as we can. As an example, if gold spot price drops $100 today, do you want me to tell you it only dropped $20 so you feel better? Of course not. It's important to understand that we believe that our "Bid" prices are "indications" of market value. The valuation of rare coins is not an exact science, and we are just one tool a buyer/seller should use in determining value. You should use auction prices realized and Coin Universe pricing as well to determine what you value a coin at. The important thing for us is that we get our part right. And that's wholesale price data. Also, we strongly advocate that collectors and investors seek professional advice from dealers before spending real money on coins. There are too many variables to know and understand to go this alone. Build a relationship with someone you trust.
thebigeng: great idea to add more pricing columns. We may eventually add these. For now, we want to be sure we are pricing the coins we list today properly before adding new columns. We have already added pricing columns in high grade for Washington Quarters, Walkers, AU58 Morgans, etc, so it's all on the table.
Thanks again for the feedback.
John Feigenbaum
Publisher, CDN
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
My Ebay Store