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interesting '75 Wax Box Sale

another knowledgeable collector pointed this Probstein auction out to me. Is this a regular '75 wax box or a mini? The other collector--who also probably notified 1/2 of you--believes it to be a mini box. Aside from the poor condition of the box--if this is a mini--man did they get hosed

auction

Comments

  • mikelowell25mikelowell25 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭
    Hi manny and yes of course he did lol!!

    I'm pretty sure the packs are regular sized judging by the "Baseball" graphic which looks too big to be the mini one.
  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why does the auction say "24 packs" when the pics are of 36 packs??
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    This was my purchase -- I contacted Rick in advance and was assured that it was indeed a "Regular" box and held 36 packs, not 24 as was stated in the title. Not sure why this wasn't corrected in the listing.

    In any case, this is going directly to BBCE for authentication. If found to be re-sealed, then Rick has assured me a full refund upon receipt. Felt it was worth taking a chance on given the assurances and relatively minor shipping costs.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,705 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those are regular sized, not mini packs. If it were a partial box of 24 mini packs, it would have been hammered at about 1/4 the price it did. Still went for a fairly decent premium considering condition, imo, even for 36 packs.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • esquiresportsesquiresports Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭
    Hey Dragnet, I was under-bidder on that one. Congrats on the pick-up. A good price if it checks out.
    Always buying 1971 OPC Baseball packs.


  • << <i>Those are regular sized, not mini packs. If it were a partial box of 24 mini packs, it would have been hammered at about 1/4 the price it did. Still went for a fairly decent premium considering condition, imo, even for 36 packs. >>



    Steve's buy price (as indicated on his site) for a 1975 Wax Box is $7,000. Wouldn't that make this buy price of $7,212.13 a steal seeing how I'd guess Steve would charge $9,000 to $10,000 for it?
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    Thanks esquire. May be moot if they don't get past Steve, but in assessing condition I largely ignored the box and focused on the packs themselves, all of which appear in very good shape. The box, which looks terrible may have to be replaced anyway should it end up being wrapped.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,705 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Those are regular sized, not mini packs. If it were a partial box of 24 mini packs, it would have been hammered at about 1/4 the price it did. Still went for a fairly decent premium considering condition, imo, even for 36 packs. >>



    Steve's buy price (as indicated on his site) for a 1975 Wax Box is $7,000. Wouldn't that make this buy price of $7,212.13 a steal seeing how I'd guess Steve would charge $9,000 to $10,000 for it? >>



    10k is pretty steep, imo. But even if that were the price, I'm expecting a clean, fresh box at that price. For a box in this condition, I would estimate value at about 75-80% of full retail. There's also the risk that the raw purchase doesn't pan out, though for Josh's sake, I hope it does.

    Even more remarkable imo was the hammer price on the 1970 box...


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • esquiresportsesquiresports Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭
    Dragnet, I agree. I thought the packs looked pretty strong. I was torn between bidding $7100 and $7600, and cheaped out.

    To answer MantleMantra's question, I believe this is a $9,500 to $10,500 box when authenticated, and a pretty easy item to move (although I was looking to add this to my collection).
    Always buying 1971 OPC Baseball packs.
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,105 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I hope they're okay too but if it's coming from the same consignor of the 1970 and 1967 partial boxes, I wouldn't bet money that they're good. Iron burns on the 1970 packs and torn wrappers with wrinkles where they shouldn't be on the 1967 packs. The good news is that the box can be returned if it's bogus.
  • So then what's the reality of the gamble here? If the box is fake then the buyer is out how much for shipping and authentication services?

    If it's legit then he stands to make $3k minus those costs?
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    I'm not sure what Steve will charge for authentication should the box be deemed no good... As for the shipping, I would only be paying the shipping back to Probstein, which shouldn't be more than $20-30 with insurance. Will let you guys know what Steve says when I hear back.
  • mikelowell25mikelowell25 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I don't think the packs are legit. White corner dots on alot of them, corners that are too pointy or come to too sharp of a point and puffiness or a pillow appearance on what I could see of them are what makes me think they're bad. And with the exception of the last pic, it doesn't help that he shows the fronts and backs of all of them from an angle as opposed to head on which doesnt help to view the entire front and back surface of the pack and see the seal and the corner folds of each one . As with any item like this, if it's legit why not show the packs as clearly as possible?!?! If they're legit, what are you trying to hide by photographing them from odd angles such as from across the room, from a rooftop or down the street which always leads me to suspect something fishy is going on.

    If I was selling this item myself or was consigning it to someone like probstein, I would want all 36 packs to be shown as they are in the fourth pic except instead of showing the front of just four of them I would want all 36 to be shown this way front AND back--unless of course i have something to hide or am intentionally trying to deceive.
  • bouncebounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
    the cart is kind of before the horse here isn't it?

    or are all of you guys going to call Steve a liar and sham if he wraps this box up? sure seems like some have already decided despite not having the thing in hand to inspect.

    why don't we just wait and see what happens? i agree it's a gamble, but looks to be pretty low risk if things DON'T work out, and certainly worth it if they do.

    a little patience, gang...
  • Congrats on the 75 box Josh! I shipped Steve out a 79 Topps Baseball Box and was charged $100 based on the $2,000 price at that time (Those boxes are cheaper on site as other packs are also cheaper than weeks & months ago). Rick also will honor if the box come back no good! I had some packs I bought from him & sent them out for grading (Which took months) & came back No Good & he even honored that!
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,705 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Congrats on the 75 box Josh! I shipped Steve out a 79 Topps Baseball Box and was charged $100 based on the $2,000 price at that time (Those boxes are cheaper on site as other packs are also cheaper than weeks & months ago). Rick also will honor if the box come back no good! I had some packs I bought from him & sent them out for grading (Which took months) & came back No Good & he even honored that! >>



    While it's good to hear that Rick made good on the packs that turned out to be resealed, I would hope that Rick is also exercising due diligence in inspecting raw product, particularly when it comes to higher end product and keeping track from what source the product is coming.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • flatfoot816flatfoot816 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭
    While it's good to hear that Rick made good on the packs that turned out to be resealed, I would hope that Rick is also exercising due diligence in inspecting raw product, particularly when it comes to higher end product and keeping track from what source the product is coming.

    Absolutely correct Tim. What I was gonna post. Because what happens if someone who buys the box doesn't really care about getting it authenticated now. Like my '73 wax box that was bad--it sat in my collection for years before I tried to get it authenticated.

    But I am sure that Rick is working diligently to ID the bad bad raw packs---imageimage

    and to the buyer--best of luck. not sure I would have gone there though--not worth the agida
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    No good guys image. Not all that surprising but was still a disappointment getting the news.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear that. What a shame.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • begsu1013begsu1013 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭
    sorry to hear, but not surprised one bit.


  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,705 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>sorry to hear, but not surprised one bit. >>



    +1

    Sorry to hear that, Josh. I feel even worse for the guy who plunked down over 10K on the resealed 1970 box.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear about the packs!!

    Is regular 75' box worth that much more than a mini box?? I see a mini box with a BIN of $3,500 on eBay.
  • You see packs of 75' mini's all day everyday as well as boxes. You rarely see wax packs of 75' regular nevertheless a box full! I had a PSA 7 pack that sold on ebay almost $200 a year ago! I don't know why Rick even accepts packs that aren't graded & definitely whole boxes that aren't BBCE wrapped at the high a dollar anyway! I know when I had my hiccup on some bad wax I bought from Rick, he said he would tracking down the cosigner! Why wouldn't a collector just get the box wrapped to maximize the return if the box is truly legit unless of you don't know about the bbcexchange or you got something to hide!
  • begsu1013begsu1013 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭


    << <i> I don't know why Rick even accepts packs that aren't graded & definitely whole boxes that aren't BBCE wrapped >>





    the jeter, the jordan, the magie, the gpk os2, this 75 box, that 70 box, etc

    one could suggest a pattern.

    wish we weren't leashed. i'd love to lay in to this and answer your question...
  • belzbelz Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
    I am sorry to hear this didn't pan out and I agree with the other opinions that Rick needs to do a much better job if he wants to maintain a positive reputation...he's too high up the chain in our hobby to have these things happen when they clearly can be avoided. I suppose he makes out on the 70 box etc., but in the long run, the fast money wont be enough to sustain his business. He should be sharper. Better for all of us.
    edit to add: I buy PSA cards from him and don't mean to throw him under the bus...just trying to help.
    "Wots Uh The Deal" by Pink Floyd
  • SdubSdub Posts: 736 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You see packs of 75' mini's all day everyday as well as boxes. You rarely see wax packs of 75' regular nevertheless a box full! I had a PSA 7 pack that sold on ebay almost $200 a year ago! I don't know why Rick even accepts packs that aren't graded & definitely whole boxes that aren't BBCE wrapped at the high a dollar anyway! I know when I had my hiccup on some bad wax I bought from Rick, he said he would tracking down the cosigner! Why wouldn't a collector just get the box wrapped to maximize the return if the box is truly legit unless of you don't know about the bbcexchange or you got something to hide! >>




    The time has past for AH's to continue selling non-certified unopened. Consignor calls with unopened, simply have them ship to BBCE, and have Steve ship to you. Eliminates the "full refund if found bogus" disclaimer that waste everyone's time. Couldn't we all agree that at this point in unopened history, if its' for sale and not certified, it's bogus?
    Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
    Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
    Prefer to buy in bulk.


  • << <i> Couldn't we all agree that at this point in unopened history, if its' for sale and not certified, it's bogus? >>



    Not even close. How many people here would even be aware of BBCE if it weren't for this forum and others like it?
  • hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << Couldn't we all agree that at this point in unopened history, if its' for sale and not certified, it's bogus? >>


    Not by a longshot
  • flatfoot816flatfoot816 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭
    sorry to hear that the box is bad--but not surprised. Now good luck trying to get ALL your $$ back. What happens if Rick has already paid the consignor? Is he gonna chuck $7500 your way out of his pocket?

    as for this comment---- I don't know why Rick even accepts packs that aren't graded & definitely whole boxes that aren't BBCE wrapped at the high a dollar anyway!

    only to make $$$$--I do not think that Rick really cares about hobby integrity--just read his smart butt comments when he posts. Thinks it is all a joke on us

    Thanks Rick--that's why more and more hi end consignments go PWCC's way---You're the best marketing idea PWCC could come up with image
  • dennis07dennis07 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭
    Is that really the way you want to go out?
    Collecting 1970 Topps baseball
  • UFFDAHUFFDAH Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have been a lurker for some time. I really enjoy all the posts. I collected as a kid primarily in 1981 - 1984. I remember going to card shows in Madison WI buying from Larry Fritsch and all the others and was always interested in the "old stuff". I dove back into buying vintage the past 2 years through PWCC, EBAY, BBCE and Collect Auctions. I been through the pain of trying to buy vintage unopened from Fritsch and their frustrating customer service. I've sent cards to PSA and been through the ups and downs of that. Steve Hart has really been great to work with when it comes to buying vintage unopened direct from him, and also for authenticating/wrapping.

    I was the winning bidder on the 1970 Box. I was really pumped yet figured it would be too good to be true. I had Steve check out the listing before I even paid to see what he thought. Without going into all the details Steve could tell right away from the pics that it would be a "no go" with him. I did not pay and alerted Rick P who stood behind my decision. Was bummed but also glad and VERY thankful for Steve.

    Anyways, hopefully I will find time to share some of the cool pickups that have worked out for me the past couple years.

    All the best to everyone.
  • esquiresportsesquiresports Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭
    Welcome to the boards!

    Sorry to hear about the 1970 and 1975 boxes. I had hopes for the 1975. 1970 looked pretty iffy to me, but would have been a nice score.

    While I disagree that we are at the point where anything not wrapped is likely resealed (I have purchased about a half-dozen 1970s boxes from AHs and only had an issue with part of one), the bigger name auction houses typically have people on their staffs with experience in reviewing unopened material. While they may not be BBCE-level (who is?), they seem to be pretty good at what they do. I don't know Rick's level of experience with unopened, but the appearance is that he is out of his element and should bring in some outside help in this area or send product to BBCE.

    Refunds won't be an issue. Either they happen willfully or you just open a case with eBay. There are three levels of protection here: (1) eBay; (2) PayPal; (3) the underlying credit card provider. I wouldn't be worried in the least.

    Always buying 1971 OPC Baseball packs.
  • elsnortoelsnorto Posts: 2,012 ✭✭


    << <i>Refunds won't be an issue. Either they happen willfully or you just open a case with eBay. There are three levels of protection here: (1) eBay; (2) PayPal; (3) the underlying credit card provider. I wouldn't be worried in the least. >>



    So I guess we know what to expect from Probstein's 2016 National chocolate eating contest then. image

    Snorto~
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,105 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welcome to the boards and glad to hear you didn't get taken to the cleaners on that 1970 wax box. For future reference, those brown stains on the back of some of the packs in the photos are iron burn marks and a clear cut sign the packs were resealed.
  • TheDudeAbidesTheDudeAbides Posts: 400 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have been a lurker for some time. I really enjoy all the posts. I collected as a kid primarily in 1981 - 1984. I remember going to card shows in Madison WI buying from Larry Fritsch and all the others and was always interested in the "old stuff". I dove back into buying vintage the past 2 years through PWCC, EBAY, BBCE and Collect Auctions. I been through the pain of trying to buy vintage unopened from Fritsch and their frustrating customer service. I've sent cards to PSA and been through the ups and downs of that. Steve Hart has really been great to work with when it comes to buying vintage unopened direct from him, and also for authenticating/wrapping.

    I was the winning bidder on the 1970 Box. I was really pumped yet figured it would be too good to be true. I had Steve check out the listing before I even paid to see what he thought. Without going into all the details Steve could tell right away from the pics that it would be a "no go" with him. I did not pay and alerted Rick P who stood behind my decision. Was bummed but also glad and VERY thankful for Steve.

    Anyways, hopefully I will find time to share some of the cool pickups that have worked out for me the past couple years.

    All the best to everyone. >>



    Welcome to the boards. Sorry about the bust. I was watching that box, but without BBCE having wrapped it, there was no way I was bidding. IF it's too good to be true ... it's just that. The Dude
    Collecting 64, 66, 67, 70 & 71 Baseball. Cubs, wax, cello & rack baseball.
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  • esquiresportsesquiresports Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Funny tossed some of you lynching Rick for this.....is he supposed to be a pack expert? He stood behind his auction. Seems stand up to me >>



    If you are going to accept $8K, $10K, etc. consignments, there is a baseline level of consignee competency that will reasonably be expected. The same way, for example, that a car auction house shouldn't be caught selling a reproduction, or a high-end handbag AH shouldn't be selling a counterfeit. I don't know what level of competency Rick has in this area, but two bad high-end boxes in a row doesn't look good.
    Always buying 1971 OPC Baseball packs.
  • 70ToppsFanatic70ToppsFanatic Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    Sorry to hear about the 1970 and 1975 boxes. I had hopes for the 1975. 1970 looked pretty iffy to me, but would have been a nice score.

    While I disagree that we are at the point where anything not wrapped is likely resealed (I have purchased about a half-dozen 1970s boxes from AHs and only had an issue with part of one), the bigger name auction houses typically have people on their staffs with experience in reviewing unopened material. While they may not be BBCE-level (who is?), they seem to be pretty good at what they do. I don't know Rick's level of experience with unopened, but the appearance is that he is out of his element and should bring in some outside help in this area or send product to BBCE.

    >>



    I think this statement is very misleading. Just about EVERY AH has been guilty of selling unopened material that they continued to offer even
    after were told it was not authentic by someone who knew what they were doing. They DO NOT have staff with significant experience in vintage
    unopened, and their disclaimers are craftily worded to basically say that "all sales are final" and that "they are not graders/authenticators, they
    rely on the opinions of recognized 3rd parties and they make not representations about authenticity".

    Bottom line is that before buying on or bidding on anything vintage unopened you either:

    a) need to know your stuff personally
    b) understand the experience and abilities of the TPG to provide an accurate determination
    c) when available, have understanding of the provenance of the item(s) being offered
    d) when available, have understanding of the sellers previous unopened sales (if any) and what they buyer received
    e) all of the above or as many of the above as possible

    This segment of the hobby is, unfortunately, very dangerous for inexperienced collectors. AH's care about only 2 things;
    consignor fees and buyer premiums. Protect yourself, because the AH's are only looking out for themselves.


    Dave
  • begsu1013begsu1013 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭
    it's easier to spot bogus items simply by the crafty wording used in the description

  • begsu1013begsu1013 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭


    << <i>Funny tossed some of you lynching Rick for this.....is he supposed to be a pack expert? He stood behind his auction. Seems stand up to me >>


    "i didn't go out and rob someone today, all praise me"
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