Considering adding gold to my collection - $10 Indian - advice sought

clarkbar04

I would like to add a raw UNC $10 Indian to my collection, and thought I would ask the board on advice on exactly what to avoid/look for, maybe something a little less obvious than "don't buy a fake." Are these a heavily counterfeited item? This seems like an opportune time with gold having dropped a bit.

A little back story, my grandfather was the coin collector who got me started. For a gift one time I received a gold coin puzzle, complete with gold foil on the backs of the pieces. I had never seen most of these coins before, but the $10 indian instantly became one of my favorites, and I have never owned one. (he has been gone 30 years)

Are there dates that offer a good value over some of the more "common" dates?

I really like the ones that have a little bit of red in them, I am assuming this is a result of the copper alloy.

ricko

The only advice I can offer is to buy from a reputable source and select the best you can afford. I know, sort of goes without saying. If you are not doing a series, than do not concern yourself with keys, unless investment (long term) is your goal. Cheers, RickO

LindeDad

I'd still get it certified as at least Genuine just for the heirs protection.

TopographicOceans

Yes, gold does not tarnish but the alloys in the mix can.

Raw gold is tricky. Even at PCGS economy submissions have to be non-gold since they can spend extra time authenticating it.
You can weigh it, measure it and compare it to all the other gold coins you've seen. So there is risk for non-experts.

When gold became illegal to own in 1933, coins were an exception. So people melted their gold and minted their own coins.

Lebanon was/is a big source of fake US gold coins (and some are even make using gold). China will make anything you want minted.


So buy it from a reputable dealer. Or buy a certified one. If you want to put it in an album you can crack it out.
There are more common dates and lower grades affect the price. A circulated one is cooler, since people actually used it in commerce, so you get extra history with it.

But remember "If you want to have a nice day, don't buy raw gold on eBay."

clarkbar04

That is one amazing example! Thanks for the tips. I will probably end up with a 1932 myself, I take it this is the most common of the entire series. "One can only wonder why such a large number of Eagles were coined at the absolute depth of the Depression."

coinbuf

I also like this and the 2 1/2 coins, to me the design is just cool on both. I'm not an expert and cannot afford to collect alot of gold so for the few I have I bought from dealers that I knew or in holders to minimize my risk of getting a counterfit.

lcoopie

Buy certified from a reputable source and keep in mind that coins and slabs are counterfeited.

TwoSides2aCoin

Enjoy. That's my advice. I deal with them often enough and they're just the grandest part of our American History, to me.
Had to crack out a few "graded by PCGS " specimens, for a fellow board member, once. I enjoyed that, too. (actually was for his neighbor, but no names)
P.S. I didn't turn the labels into PCGS, either.

Justacommeman

I like 1907 for type.

Mark

291fifth

Buy a certified example from a reputable dealer. The age of raw gold has passed due to counterfeiting.

guitarwes

<< <i>I like 1907 for type.

Mark >>



I'm with TMIMITW

BillJones

I would buy an NGC or PCGS certified example and crack it out if you have to have a raw one. It's just plain foolish to mess around with Mint State graded raw gold these days. You won't save that much money if any money at all. And if you get stuck with a counterfeit, over graded or doctored piece, there is a lot to lose financially.

Here are examples of the two major types.

The No Motto type, 1907 and 1908. NGC under graded this one as an MS-61. It's at least two points better than that. The grading on this type can be all over the place because the strikes tended to be mushy.



The With Motto type. The 1932 eagle is the most common date, and it is of interest because it is only U.S. gold coins dated in the 1930s that most collectors can afford. This one is a PCGS MS-63.

lkeigwin

<< <i>When gold became illegal to own in 1933, coins were an exception. So people melted their gold and minted their own coins. >>

Collectible gold coins were excepted, yes. Hoarding was not. And I don't think folks melted and minted their own coins. Such coins wouldn't be exempt anyway.
Lance.

roadrunner

<< <i>

<< <i>When gold became illegal to own in 1933, coins were an exception. So people melted their gold and minted their own coins. >>

Collectible gold coins were excepted, yes. Hoarding was not. And I don't think folks melted and minted their own coins. Such coins wouldn't be exempt anyway.
Lance. >>



The big gold collectors of the 1934-1964 era essentially hoarded gold (Bass, Pittman, Bareford, Eliasberg, etc.) The exemption from the 1934 GRA allowed them to have up to 5 specimens per date of anything pre-1933. You could fill a long want list with that requirement...basically 5 complete gold sets of US coins....lol.

I wouldn't touch a raw gold coin when there is no premium for buying a slabbed MS62-MS64. The premiums on 63-64 generic gold coins is still WAY under all time highs of Spring 2006 when gold was $730/oz. Best bang for your buck is probably a MS63 at $1050-$1075 or a MS64 at $1450-$1500. Despite gold's recent $150 plunge, the MS63's/64's are up by $200. You could have bought MS63's earlier this year for under $900. Much better chance for numismatic appreciation/promotions with the 63-64 coins, and to some extent the 61's and 62's. My pick for the past few years has been the MS63 whenever they have dropped to around $1,000....it's 0.48 ounces of gold and a pretty nice specimen for a 100% premium to its melt value....about the same premium that a circ wheat penny sells for. And if you can get a CAC 63 for a premium of $40 or less, that's a decent deal too. Appears to be a coin promotion on $10 Indians in progress. Someone knows something. Can you buy a 1920's MS63 Merc dime for $2.20? Or a 1932 MS63 Washington quarter for $5.50? That's the equivalent value to buying a 1926/1932 MS63 $10 Indian for $1080. Those have always been very desirable and in-demand type coins. Can you buy a MS64 Peace or Morgan dollar for $23?

The biggest demand for $10 Indians is from type collectors. They aren't too concerned about the date other than 1907/1908 NM vs. the 1908-1932 WM. Get the nicest MS 1926 or 1932 you can find. Those are more liquid and in demand imo than say an XF/AU slightly better date. Copper alloy spots are a min 5% price reduction on all but CAC certified pieces. That's just the way the market has worked for the past 6 years. Stay away from bright and dipped out pieces. Coppery-orange yellow is best. If you buy raw you risk buying cleaned, puttied, and even counterfeits. With faked slabs, you still need to buy from a trusted dealer. I'd go with the common date to take advantage of the depressed gold prices. Any movements upwards in years to come will be leveraged in those common date MS63's and MS64's....not the scarcer dates....and not circ pieces.

TwoSides2aCoin

It has never been illegal to own gold in America.

DaveG

It certainly was illegal for Americans to own gold in some forms prior to 1974.

OldIndianNutKase

I added two $10 Indians to my collection a little over a year ago. Both of them were PCGS AU and I bought them on a Heritage auction. Like you, I do not want to collect the series, I just wanted one, and ended up buying two. I cracked one out to use as a pocket piece on special occasions........like poker games with friends. I also have a $20 St. Gardens for the same purpose. There is something special when a gold coin drops on the table. The other players seem to forget about all things poker which usually ends up good for me. And they get to touch a real gold coin, something that they have never done before. But I can tell that they now really want one. And that is GOOD for our hobby.

OINK

Walkerfan

Shop around for the best prices. Buy in at least the MS 63-64 range. You don't have to buy the most expensive keys but you don't need to settle for the most common issues, either. I'd buy middle-of-the road 'semi-keys', if I were you. Always buy PCGS or NGC only, as to avoid counterfeits, puttying and other forms of doctoring such as cleaning and also coins that are 'optimistically' graded (aka over-graded). You have a decent eye, so use that to your advantage and buy coins that look PQ for the grade.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>It certainly was illegal for Americans to own gold in some forms prior to 1974. >>



No it wasn't. Collectors were given a free pass by Roosevelt.

luckybucks

Nice Indians. I don't think we will ever see designs this beautiful again.

Buying $10 Indians: Buy slabbed coins / coins from a trusted source.

topstuf

Just be sure to get it CHEAP if it's raw.

Raw 10 Inds are of almost NO interest lately. Just bullion value usually.

Around 700 is current wholesale ask.

Get a slabbed one.

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DaveG

TwoSides2aCoin:

You might want to go back and check the law - Americans weren't allowed to own gold bullion or "modern" gold coins between 1933 (or 1934 or whenever the law changed) and 1974.

For example, Americans couldn't legally own the 1967 Canadian $20 gold coin when it was first released. If you wanted one (it was part of the special set), you had to go to Canada and smuggle one back with you.

The law was also the main reason that there were restrikes of Mexican gold coins.

There was a part of the US Treasury called the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations that regulated which gold coins were legal for Americans to own. I have a book (How to Invest in Gold Coins by Donald J. Hoppe) that was originally published in 1970 that has a list of which gold coins minted from 1934 to 1959 were legal to own. That's one reason why the latest Mexican gold restrike is dated 1959.

You might also want to read p. 283 of QD Bowers' Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins. QDB writes many harsh words about F. Leland Howard, who was the acting Director of the Mint who kicked off the prosecution of the 1933 Double Eagle in 1944 and who was the Director of the ODGSO in the 1960s.


edited: to correct a spelling error.

TwoSides2aCoin

A guy called today . He has an NGC MS 61 1914 $10 Eagle he needs to sell.
Want the next one ? They offer themselves to me . I don't call for them.

roadrunner

<< <i>You might want to go back and check the law - Americans weren't allowed to own gold bullion or "modern" gold coins between 1933 (or 1934 or whenever the law changed) and 1974. >>



I think your own analysis conflicts with what you just wrote unless by "modern gold coins" you mean those minted after 1960 (and not 1934 or later). You could own modern sovereign gold coins minted prior to 1960. Bullion bars, rounds, etc. were not allowed. That interpretation revision officially came out in 1969, listing hundreds of pre-1960 foreign sovereign gold that you could legally own. There was also a clarification in 1954 that identified all pre-1933 gold coins as exempt from the 1934 GRA. With minimal effort, anyone from 1934-1969 and 1934-1974 could have loaded up on legal gold coins. Bareford, Pittman, Eliasberg, Bass, and many others did so. David Ganz writes about this topic on this internet article from a few years back. The pertinent info as near the end of the article.

Attorney David Ganz on US gold confiscations 1934-1974

DaveG

roadrunner,

If it will make you happier, I can edit my post to put the word some before "modern" gold coins.

My intention was to communicate to TwoSides2aCoin that there were some limits to gold ownership by Americans prior to 1974, not to discuss every detail of the various pieces of legislation and regulation.

TwoSides2aCoin

Thanks Dave G. I do appreciate any clarification, as necessary to explore and uncover the whole truth.

DaveG

TwoSides2aCoin,

I didn't wish to appear pedantic (about this issue anyway - I'm always happy to be pedantic about the issues in which I'm particularly interested)

I think many collectors and gold investors today take for granted the ability to buy any gold item we want, without remembering (or knowing about) the pre-1974 restrictions.

I didn't get interested in gold until about 2000 and I was rather surprised when I subsequently learned about the pre-1974 restrictions. (At least I understood then why the Mexican restrikes had been made.)

TwoSides2aCoin

Thanks again Dave G. I did not find you pedantic , per se. Although in truth, I think we (coin people ) are very scrupulous, as that goes. Inasmuch as the law /legality is concerned, we are a bit draconian, at times, but as Americans; we still have a great say in our freedom of speech. While the bankers and politicians haggle over the buck, most of us who are hobbyists tend to appear with raise eyebrows and more toward what's gone on, rather than what's going on.

So, with that said, and back to the subject at hand, I think $10 Indians are a good thing to add to any collection. Mainly because we don't make them anymore. Finding one in Mint State is a sign that a lot of them were "loved" even back in the old days.

Have a good night.

Joe

DaveG

TwoSides2aCoin,

Thanks for understanding.

Back to the OP's topic: I like both the No Motto (perhaps a 1908 - lower mintage, but not much more expensive) and the 1932 (one of the last obtainable US classic gold coins).

I do realize that there's not much connection between mintages and survivors where classic gold is concerned, but I still like to say "low mintage."



One of these days I'm going to look into the 1932 eagles and find out why so many were minted and where (and when) they were sent so that so many of them survived confiscation and melting. After all, 2.9 million double eagles were minted in 1931 at Philadelphia and 1.1 million were minted in 1932, but most of those coins stayed in the Mint and were melted.

roadrunner

<< <i>...So, with that said, and back to the subject at hand, I think $10 Indians are a good thing to add to any collection. Mainly because we don't make them anymore. Finding one in Mint State is a sign that a lot of them were "loved" even back in the old days..... >>



Technically, they are still making them. And that's what's been helping to drive the price down since May 2006. There are more MS slab worthy gold coins ($10's too) that keep coming out of Europe and wherever. Heritage is one of the biggest producers. It doesn't matter that they aren't minting them any more. What matters is that the slabbed supply has been and still is growing....with collector demand at best static. This is the same gremlin that has infected much of the rare coin market since 1990....slabbed supplies growing on all but the very rarest of coins. Finding so many mint state $10 Indians still around today suggests to me more that they were "unloved" back in the pre-1933 period. Most of the remaining $10's and $20's probably sat in bank vaults well into the 1920's.

If it will make you happier, I can edit my post to put the word some before "modern" gold coins

That would have helped. Because the original post suggested it was not possible to buy modern gold coins before 1974. In fact you could have bought British sovereigns in quantity (5 per date) in 1969, possibly earlier. The important point is that anyone could have loaded up on pre-1933 US gold coins at any time after 1934. In other words, gold was widely available at a fairly low premium to spot. Not being able to buy bullion, restrikes, and other non-coin gold was more of a minor nuisance. The majority of Americans from 1934-1974 misunderstood what the gold "ban" or "confiscation" really meant.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>...So, with that said, and back to the subject at hand, I think $10 Indians are a good thing to add to any collection. Mainly because we don't make them anymore. Finding one in Mint State is a sign that a lot of them were "loved" even back in the old days..... >>



Technically, they are still making them. And that's what's been helping to drive the price down since May 2006. There are more MS slabbed gold ($10's too) that keep coming out of Europe and wherever. It doesn't matter that they aren't minting them any more. What matters is that the slabbed supply has been and still is growing....with collector demand at best static. Finding so many mint state $10 Indians still around today suggests to me more that they were "unloved" back in the pre-1933 period. Most of the remaining $10's and $20's probably sat in bank vaults well into the 1920's.
>>



I can agree that perhaps many were "hoarded" whether abroad, or hidden here, RR. , and so some are still being "made" (emphasis on "grading at TPG", many do not understand that terminology) And the supply outweighs the demand a hundred years later, even after the call to turn in gold. This suggests that not all the gold was repatriated early and that's not a bad thing for collectors today. This "static" and unloved thought paradigm shift also creates a new opportunity to get a "half ounce" (close enough for government work) in/with an "Indian Eagle".
They're (the 1907-1933 $10 Gold Eagles) beautiful on both sides. And on this note, I have nothing further to add to this thread. I advise the thread starter to indulge My mind is made up there.

clarkbar04

I posted this thread and then ran off and hid "off the grid" over the weekend. I was thrilled to come back to a very informative thread. Thanks to all for your great posts!