Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just found on page 76 of the American Journal of Science, published in 1835, an account about a trip to visit a dealer named Matthew Young in Covent Garden (London), who "has a large collection of Coins and Medals, together with several, struck in Great Britain and France, relative to our country."
The author then goes on to describe purchasing "American Coins &c.", including a description of what we call a Continental Dollar in "white metal", as well as a 1785 Constellatio Nova, and Carolina Elephant Token.
Other legitimate American Colonials were bought, including a New Jersey and a Nova Eborac.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Historical Magazine: And Notes and Queries (1857) published a description of the Continental Dollar (described as a coin or medal). It goes on to say that no coins were ever in circulation and that H.G. Somerby acquired on in England in 1853. This coin was then given to Matthew Stickney...
Olla Podrida: Or, Scraps, Numismatic, Antiquarian, and Literary, published by Richard Sainthill of Topsham, Devon (1853) describes an American leaden coin which is obviously a C€1...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That is really, really intriguing. I also made note of the news in the lower right hand corner of the page, which begins "The coroner's inquest sat on the body of a maid servant...."
@kaz said:
That is really, really intriguing. I also made note of the news in the lower right hand corner of the page, which begins "The coroner's inquest sat on the body of a maid servant...."
I missed that. Slit her own throat when they caught her pilfering wine.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@kaz said:
That is really, really intriguing. I also made note of the news in the lower right hand corner of the page, which begins "The coroner's inquest sat on the body of a maid servant...."
I missed that. Slit her own throat when they caught her pilfering wine.
Of course she did. Who else would do such a thing to her?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@kaz said:
That is really, really intriguing. I also made note of the news in the lower right hand corner of the page, which begins "The coroner's inquest sat on the body of a maid servant...."
I missed that. Slit her own throat when they caught her pilfering wine.
Of course she did. Who else would do such a thing to her?
Colonel Mustard in the library with a throat slitter?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
It seems likely/reasonable to me that the date 1776 refers not to date of minting but is really more of a commemeration of the date itself. Especially since, if I followed this thread correctly, the earliest confirmation of their existing is 1783, a celebration of the end of the war is possible. Perhaps, once it became known that we would win, they were minted and passed off to people as the first coinage of the new nation? Just speculating if course, but it seems believable to me.
@BillyKingsley said:
It seems likely/reasonable to me that the date 1776 refers not to date of minting but is really more of a commemeration of the date itself. Especially since, if I followed this thread correctly, the earliest confirmation of their existing is 1783, a celebration of the end of the war is possible. Perhaps, once it became known that we would win, they were minted and passed off to people as the first coinage of the new nation? Just speculating if course, but it seems believable to me.
It's definitely believable that they were struck in 1783 to commemorate the end of the war, but if they were struck here for that purpose, why is there not a single report of a definitively identifiable example in the US prior to the 1850s? Remember that every definitive US reference thus far is either of a coin in Europe or is copied from an account from Europe...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
On further thought the misspelling and odd abbreviations might be another clue to being marketed in Europe...they may not have been as familiar with the proper spelling and may not have realized there was an issue.
New York was occupied by the British. the Continental army had no major victories to show for, except driving the British from Boston to New York. The adoption of the Declaration of Independence was a bold act of treason, should the Continental army be broken. The colonies were in a deep economic depression with virtually no trade and substance farming being the typical means of survival. I don't want to paint too bleak a picture, but it seems a bad time to start a coinage, especially one that is so overtly partisan in the midst of a war.
Most of the Continental "Dollars" were pewter, others were struck in brass, four (from JJ Ford cat info) are known in silver that surfaced out of Britain. Considering their dollar size, and the silver pieces were overstruck, a screw press with that capability was not known in the US, and would have been extremely difficult to fabricate during that time period. Robert Morris did mention an "informal mint" in his diary November 16, 1781, a few weeks after the Siege of Yorktown, the final major battle of the American War of Independence.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Excellent point about the screw press availability, or lack thereof.
Have any of the silver pieces ever been tested for content? If made in America I would expect it to be roughly .903 fine silver with trace elements typical of Spanish-American silver.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
And if they were made in the Americas, one might expect an over strike or two on 8 Reales coins.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Between the Battle of Yorktown in 1781, which for all intents and purposes won the Revolutionary War, and the Treaty of Paris in 1783, which formally established our Independence, how popular was America in Great Britain? Would there have been people in England saying "Jolly good! They whipped our bloody arses! Let's buy a coin-like object commemorating their Declaration of Independence!" Or would anybody selling such an object in England have met with scorn and ridicule and possibly even mutterings of treason?
Is it possible that somebody in France, England's traditional enemy at the time and loser of what we call the French and Indian War, have made these to sell in England and tweak the British noses? Perhaps someone acquainted with Mr. Franklin and/or Mr. Jefferson?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Have any of the silver pieces ever been tested for content? If made in America I would expect it to be roughly .903 fine silver with trace elements typical of Spanish-American silver.
89% silver 10+% copper.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Have any of the silver pieces ever been tested for content? If made in America I would expect it to be roughly .903 fine silver with trace elements typical of Spanish-American silver.
89% silver 10+% copper.
Thanks. Could still be melted down Spanish-American silver, which was available just about everywhere. The British was .925 and the French was, I believe, .9167.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Check out this engraving of a German version of the Continental Dollar in the German Almanac of 1784 posted by @cardinal. This indicates that there was enough interest in Germany to create fantasy designs. Anyone know if any German versions were struck?
@Zoins said:
Check out this engraving of a German version of the Continental Dollar in the German Almanac of 1784 posted by @cardinal. This indicates that there was enough interest in Germany to create fantasy designs. Anyone know if any German versions were struck?
Edited to add: I am sure that no piece was struck in metal with the German language text. The picture engraver simply translated the barbaric English inscriptions for the benefit of his viewing audience. Notice that he did not feel the need to do so for the Latin inscriptions on the Libertas Americana medal, since the educated class who would be buying the book were assumed to understand Latin.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Zoins said:
Check out this engraving of a German version of the Continental Dollar in the German Almanac of 1784 posted by @cardinal. This indicates that there was enough interest in Germany to create fantasy designs. Anyone know if any German versions were struck?
That's the first verifiable report of a Continental Dollar - published in December 1783. The publisher wrote to Benjamin Franklin seeking information about medals associated with the Revolutionary War. Franklin's papers don't indicate that he responded to the request.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Zoins said:
Check out this engraving of a German version of the Continental Dollar in the German Almanac of 1784 posted by @cardinal. This indicates that there was enough interest in Germany to create fantasy designs. Anyone know if any German versions were struck?
That's the first verifiable report of a Continental Dollar - published in December 1783. The publisher wrote to Benjamin Franklin seeking information about medals associated with the Revolutionary War. Franklin's papers don't indicate that he responded to the request.
Did the the almanac also have an English "Continental Currency" dollar/medal or just the German "Americanische Landes Müntze" thaler/dollar/medal? The Colonial Newsletter Cumulative Index by the ANS indicates the German version is the earliest illustration which is interesting:
Who has a copy of the Almanac to check? Do most illustrations show Latin inscriptions engraved in the original Latin, while lesser tongues get translated into German?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Who has a copy of the Almanac to check? Do most illustrations show Latin inscriptions engraved in the original Latin, while lesser tongues get translated into German?
A photo of the page is somewhere above or in a link. The illustration is captioned (in German) as being "in the form of a coin" and based upon the paper money of Pennsylvania (sic)...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The Ford catalog, borrowing the Carlson 1987 description of the silver specimen, described it as 373.3 gns and an overstruck Spanish milled dollar 1740's to 1750's with the contiguous wreath of leaves on the edge. Carlson suspects the four Continental "Dollars" known in silver (370-385 gns) were shaved down to prevent export as they were less than the 416 grain Spanish standard (assumes US struck).
Also not mentioned in this thread: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere describes a coin "...with devices and mottos taken from the continental paper money, Struckt in London on Type-Metal..." in his draft "Historical Outline" to "...illustrate the Revolution in North America by Medals, Seals, and Coins..." Source, The Eagle That Is Forgotten: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere, Founding Father of American Numismatics. Dr. Joel J. Orosz, Published by Bowers and Merena, 1988. Derived from primary sources at the Library of Congress and the Du Simintiere Papers at the Library Company of Philadelphia.
Considering that Du Simitiere was a coin/medal collector, researcher, and author, his statement carries considerable weight, as he wrote this in Philadelphia between 1783 and October, 1784 (month/yr of death, and describes a coin struck in 1783). However, Orosz stated that it was not struck in London.
I expect the source to be found someday, as the striking of these was no minor effort, probably in obscure manuscripts "with the dust of centuries." Quote from an email to me by a fellow Scottish researcher regarding some newly discovered documents about Robert Scot, from Edinburgh archives.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Nysoto said:
The Ford catalog, borrowing the Carlson 1987 description of the silver specimen, described it as 373.3 gns and an overstruck Spanish milled dollar 1740's to 1750's with the contiguous wreath of leaves on the edge. Carlson suspects the four Continental "Dollars" known in silver (370-385 gns) were shaved down to prevent export as they were less than the 416 grain Spanish standard (assumes US struck).
Also not mentioned in this thread: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere describes a coin "...with devices and mottos taken from the continental paper money, Struckt in London on Type-Metal..." in his draft "Historical Outline" to "...illustrate the Revolution in North America by Medals, Seals, and Coins..." Source, The Eagle That Is Forgotten: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere, Founding Father of American Numismatics. Dr. Joel J. Orosz, Published by Bowers and Merena, 1988. Derived from primary sources at the Library of Congress and the Du Simintiere Papers at the Library Company of Philadelphia.
Considering that Du Simitiere was a coin/medal collector, researcher, and author, his statement carries considerable weight, as he wrote this in Philadelphia between 1783 and October, 1784 (month/yr of death, and describes a coin struck in 1783). However, Orosz stated that it was not struck in London.
I expect the source to be found someday, as the striking of these was no minor effort, probably in obscure manuscripts "with the dust of centuries." Quote from an email to me by a fellow Scottish researcher regarding some newly discovered documents about Robert Scot, from Edinburgh archives.
I had NO IDEA that Du Simitiere wrote that - that really may be the most compelling evidence thus far - as you mentioned, Du Simitiere was one of the first serious collectors of coins in the United States. It's interesting that the coin he was describing as being "struck in London" in 1783, as this is really what all the circumstantial evidence seems to be pointing towards.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Chemical Essays.
By R. (Richard) Watson
And Regius Professor of Divinity In
the University of Cambridge.
Vol. IV.
(1786)
pg. 136
The Congress in America had recourse to the
same expedient; they coined several pieces of about an inch
and half in diameter, and of 240 grains in weight; on one
side of which was inscribed in a circular ring near the
edge-Continental Currency, 1776-and within the ring
a rising sun, with -fugio- at the side of it, shining upon a dial,
under which was-Mind your business.-On the reverse were
thirteen small circles joined together like the rings of a chain,
on each of which was inscribed the name of some one of the
thirteen states; on another circular ring, within these, was
inscribed-American Congress-and in the central space-We are One.
etc.....
The following extract from the Bishop Watson's Chemical Essays
[published in 1786] Vol. 4 page 136, shews how easily strange
errors are introduced into the writings even of careful men
when they write on any subject relative to distant countries.
It is probable that some workman amused himself with
copying one of the small bills emitted by Congress, into a die
or mould, and then impressed or cast a piece of Pewter such
as the Bishop has described.-If the author of that work
should publish a future edition, it is hoped that clause will be
omitted.
I'm reasonably certain that Bishop Watson's commentary on the C$1s originated with the "European Magazine" item from 1786 that compares the Continental Dollar to siege pieces and suggests that Congress struck it (before identifying the 1785 Constellatio Nova copper as a Congressional issue, as well).
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
CoinWeek IQ: Resolute Americana Collection of Continental Dollars - 4K Video; detailing the Robert Rodriguez set of Continental Dollars, including his perspective on some of the history of the pieces involved. Worth the watch.
By the 1880s, they seem to be called Continental Dollars, but both Dickeson and Crosby refer to them as "Continental Currency". Dickeson did not identify the issue with the dollar at all, and writes:
"With all our admiration for the coin or medal, we have not been able to determine that it was designed for, or that it became to any great extent, a currency. As it made its appearance only in white metal, the idea is strengthened thereby that it was in reality a medal, struck to commemorate the bold, fearless, and patriotic acts of the Congress that declared our country a free and independent nation."
So, at the FUN show Regulated said that the article has been prepared and submitted to The Numismatist. It is a three-part article. I think it is likely the most important numismatic work since the 1962 ANA where David Spink announced the existence of the King of Siam Proof set containing an 1804 dollar and Eagle.
@Regulated said:
I might just suck it up and go do the digging myself.
I've been reviewing US catalogues from the 1860s and 1870s - Continental Dollars turn up infrequently (even when compared with much rarer Early American stuff) and the only sale with a substantial number of them (8 pieces and a Betts-614) is the 1871 Strobridge/Woodward sale of Charles Clay's holdings. Clay was a prominent physician who, of course, lived in Great Britain.
Also just found: the first US appearance of a Brass Continental Dollar in Woodward's 1864 Levick Sale, which describes the coin thus:
"This piece has long been known in England, and has always been considered unique, and no doubt is so, being entirely unknown in American collections..."
Watching the Robert Rodriguez video now. The pieces are very nice. It's interesting that he appears to say that a pamphlet he was involved with debunked the medal theory, but I still need to review that section more. It is interesting that Rodriguez also mentions that the first appearance of the medal was in the German publication with German words but then goes on to say non-coin(?) theories were debunked. Anyone have access to the pamphlet he's referring to?
I have to say Robert Rodriguez put together a great collection, regardless of whether these are medals or coins. He's obviously a very passionate collector of these.
The EPN inserts on these stand out as well, even from this distance. Robert is on the right below.
@Zoins said:
Watching the Robert Rodriguez video now. The pieces are very nice. It's interesting that he appears to say that a pamphlet he was involved with debunked the medal theory, but I still need to review that section more. It is interesting that Rodriguez also mentions that the first appearance of the medal was in the German publication with German words but then goes on to say non-coin(?) theories were debunked. Anyone have access to the pamphlet he's referring to?
Erik Goldstein also deserves plenty of credit for the article - while a lot of it was based on the posts in this thread, he did the heavy lifting where writing was concerned.
The contention that the medal theory has been debunked is an interesting one. In order to debunk a theory, you have to either demonstrate that it is logically unsound, or that it is incompatible with existing evidence.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
And now that the "1776" Continental Dollar has been debunked as an American issue of that year, should the Mint recall all of the 2006 Ben Franklin "Founding Father" dollars, that bear an image of the 1776 Continental Dollar on them?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
And now that the "1776" Continental Dollar has been debunked as an American issue of that year, should the Mint recall all of the 2006 Ben Franklin "Founding Father" dollars, that bear an image of the 1776 Continental Dollar on them?
Even if the Continental "Dollar" had been struck here, it's unlikely that Franklin had anything to do with the obverse - Rittenhouse was making clocks that said "Tempus Fugit - Go About Your Business" in 1756, and was one of the engravers used by Continental Congress on the paper money.
Of course, the BS about Franklin designing that side of the coin has been repeated so many times that it will probably be impossible to convince anyone that it's just something somebody made up. I should add that there is evidence that Franklin designed the Thirteen Rings/American Congress side of the paper money.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Comments
Amazing
M
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just found on page 76 of the American Journal of Science, published in 1835, an account about a trip to visit a dealer named Matthew Young in Covent Garden (London), who "has a large collection of Coins and Medals, together with several, struck in Great Britain and France, relative to our country."
The author then goes on to describe purchasing "American Coins &c.", including a description of what we call a Continental Dollar in "white metal", as well as a 1785 Constellatio Nova, and Carolina Elephant Token.
Other legitimate American Colonials were bought, including a New Jersey and a Nova Eborac.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Historical Magazine: And Notes and Queries (1857) published a description of the Continental Dollar (described as a coin or medal). It goes on to say that no coins were ever in circulation and that H.G. Somerby acquired on in England in 1853. This coin was then given to Matthew Stickney...
Olla Podrida: Or, Scraps, Numismatic, Antiquarian, and Literary, published by Richard Sainthill of Topsham, Devon (1853) describes an American leaden coin which is obviously a C€1...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That is really, really intriguing. I also made note of the news in the lower right hand corner of the page, which begins "The coroner's inquest sat on the body of a maid servant...."
I missed that. Slit her own throat when they caught her pilfering wine.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Of course she did. Who else would do such a thing to her?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Colonel Mustard in the library with a throat slitter?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
It seems likely/reasonable to me that the date 1776 refers not to date of minting but is really more of a commemeration of the date itself. Especially since, if I followed this thread correctly, the earliest confirmation of their existing is 1783, a celebration of the end of the war is possible. Perhaps, once it became known that we would win, they were minted and passed off to people as the first coinage of the new nation? Just speculating if course, but it seems believable to me.
It's definitely believable that they were struck in 1783 to commemorate the end of the war, but if they were struck here for that purpose, why is there not a single report of a definitively identifiable example in the US prior to the 1850s? Remember that every definitive US reference thus far is either of a coin in Europe or is copied from an account from Europe...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I meant to state in Europe but forgot to.
On further thought the misspelling and odd abbreviations might be another clue to being marketed in Europe...they may not have been as familiar with the proper spelling and may not have realized there was an issue.
Most of the Continental "Dollars" were pewter, others were struck in brass, four (from JJ Ford cat info) are known in silver that surfaced out of Britain. Considering their dollar size, and the silver pieces were overstruck, a screw press with that capability was not known in the US, and would have been extremely difficult to fabricate during that time period. Robert Morris did mention an "informal mint" in his diary November 16, 1781, a few weeks after the Siege of Yorktown, the final major battle of the American War of Independence.
Excellent point about the screw press availability, or lack thereof.
Have any of the silver pieces ever been tested for content? If made in America I would expect it to be roughly .903 fine silver with trace elements typical of Spanish-American silver.
And if they were made in the Americas, one might expect an over strike or two on 8 Reales coins.
More idle ruminations.....
Between the Battle of Yorktown in 1781, which for all intents and purposes won the Revolutionary War, and the Treaty of Paris in 1783, which formally established our Independence, how popular was America in Great Britain? Would there have been people in England saying "Jolly good! They whipped our bloody arses! Let's buy a coin-like object commemorating their Declaration of Independence!" Or would anybody selling such an object in England have met with scorn and ridicule and possibly even mutterings of treason?
Is it possible that somebody in France, England's traditional enemy at the time and loser of what we call the French and Indian War, have made these to sell in England and tweak the British noses? Perhaps someone acquainted with Mr. Franklin and/or Mr. Jefferson?
89% silver 10+% copper.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Thanks. Could still be melted down Spanish-American silver, which was available just about everywhere. The British was .925 and the French was, I believe, .9167.
I've read that they were struck over Spanish Silver Dollars, but have never seen any direct evidence.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
If this were true, shouldn't it be fairly easy to see the undertype? That's certainly the case with many older overstruck coins I've seen.
That's what you'd think, but they're also substantially lighter - could it be possible that they were shaved down?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That might support the medal theory but, for the coin theory, wouldn't being of standard weight be desirable to be accepted for commerce?
Check out this engraving of a German version of the Continental Dollar in the German Almanac of 1784 posted by @cardinal. This indicates that there was enough interest in Germany to create fantasy designs. Anyone know if any German versions were struck?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11779482/#Comment_11779482
Obviously engraved from a piece in hand.
Edited to add: I am sure that no piece was struck in metal with the German language text. The picture engraver simply translated the barbaric English inscriptions for the benefit of his viewing audience. Notice that he did not feel the need to do so for the Latin inscriptions on the Libertas Americana medal, since the educated class who would be buying the book were assumed to understand Latin.
That's the first verifiable report of a Continental Dollar - published in December 1783. The publisher wrote to Benjamin Franklin seeking information about medals associated with the Revolutionary War. Franklin's papers don't indicate that he responded to the request.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Did the the almanac also have an English "Continental Currency" dollar/medal or just the German "Americanische Landes Müntze" thaler/dollar/medal? The Colonial Newsletter Cumulative Index by the ANS indicates the German version is the earliest illustration which is interesting:
http://numismatics.org/wikiuploads/CNL/cnlindex142.pdf
Who has a copy of the Almanac to check? Do most illustrations show Latin inscriptions engraved in the original Latin, while lesser tongues get translated into German?
A photo of the page is somewhere above or in a link. The illustration is captioned (in German) as being "in the form of a coin" and based upon the paper money of Pennsylvania (sic)...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The Ford catalog, borrowing the Carlson 1987 description of the silver specimen, described it as 373.3 gns and an overstruck Spanish milled dollar 1740's to 1750's with the contiguous wreath of leaves on the edge. Carlson suspects the four Continental "Dollars" known in silver (370-385 gns) were shaved down to prevent export as they were less than the 416 grain Spanish standard (assumes US struck).
Also not mentioned in this thread: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere describes a coin "...with devices and mottos taken from the continental paper money, Struckt in London on Type-Metal..." in his draft "Historical Outline" to "...illustrate the Revolution in North America by Medals, Seals, and Coins..." Source, The Eagle That Is Forgotten: Pierre Eugene Du Simitiere, Founding Father of American Numismatics. Dr. Joel J. Orosz, Published by Bowers and Merena, 1988. Derived from primary sources at the Library of Congress and the Du Simintiere Papers at the Library Company of Philadelphia.
Considering that Du Simitiere was a coin/medal collector, researcher, and author, his statement carries considerable weight, as he wrote this in Philadelphia between 1783 and October, 1784 (month/yr of death, and describes a coin struck in 1783). However, Orosz stated that it was not struck in London.
I expect the source to be found someday, as the striking of these was no minor effort, probably in obscure manuscripts "with the dust of centuries." Quote from an email to me by a fellow Scottish researcher regarding some newly discovered documents about Robert Scot, from Edinburgh archives.
I had NO IDEA that Du Simitiere wrote that - that really may be the most compelling evidence thus far - as you mentioned, Du Simitiere was one of the first serious collectors of coins in the United States. It's interesting that the coin he was describing as being "struck in London" in 1783, as this is really what all the circumstantial evidence seems to be pointing towards.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Chemical Essays.
By R. (Richard) Watson
And Regius Professor of Divinity In
the University of Cambridge.
Vol. IV.
(1786)
pg. 136
The Congress in America had recourse to the
same expedient; they coined several pieces of about an inch
and half in diameter, and of 240 grains in weight; on one
side of which was inscribed in a circular ring near the
edge-Continental Currency, 1776-and within the ring
a rising sun, with -fugio- at the side of it, shining upon a dial,
under which was-Mind your business.-On the reverse were
thirteen small circles joined together like the rings of a chain,
on each of which was inscribed the name of some one of the
thirteen states; on another circular ring, within these, was
inscribed-American Congress-and in the central space-We are One.
etc.....
The following extract from the Bishop Watson's Chemical Essays
[published in 1786] Vol. 4 page 136, shews how easily strange
errors are introduced into the writings even of careful men
when they write on any subject relative to distant countries.
It is probable that some workman amused himself with
copying one of the small bills emitted by Congress, into a die
or mould, and then impressed or cast a piece of Pewter such
as the Bishop has described.-If the author of that work
should publish a future edition, it is hoped that clause will be
omitted.
December 11, 1788 New Haven (Connecticut) Gazette
I'm reasonably certain that Bishop Watson's commentary on the C$1s originated with the "European Magazine" item from 1786 that compares the Continental Dollar to siege pieces and suggests that Congress struck it (before identifying the 1785 Constellatio Nova copper as a Congressional issue, as well).
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Posted today on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/VCnN2yoAgJw
CoinWeek IQ: Resolute Americana Collection of Continental Dollars - 4K Video; detailing the Robert Rodriguez set of Continental Dollars, including his perspective on some of the history of the pieces involved. Worth the watch.
.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
So, at the FUN show Regulated said that the article has been prepared and submitted to The Numismatist. It is a three-part article. I think it is likely the most important numismatic work since the 1962 ANA where David Spink announced the existence of the King of Siam Proof set containing an 1804 dollar and Eagle.
Watching the Robert Rodriguez video now. The pieces are very nice. It's interesting that he appears to say that a pamphlet he was involved with debunked the medal theory, but I still need to review that section more. It is interesting that Rodriguez also mentions that the first appearance of the medal was in the German publication with German words but then goes on to say non-coin(?) theories were debunked. Anyone have access to the pamphlet he's referring to?
Can't wait to read the article by @Regulated.
@Regulated in a huge asset to numismatics. Thanks for writing this!
Latin American Collection
The article in this month's Numismatist is an excellent read.
Here's the translation of the book where the German engraving appeared.
This book is available on Amazon for $738.83:
https://www.amazon.com/1700s-America-C-M-Sprengel-2005-01-11/dp/B01FKUZGF8/
I have to say Robert Rodriguez put together a great collection, regardless of whether these are medals or coins. He's obviously a very passionate collector of these.
The EPN inserts on these stand out as well, even from this distance. Robert is on the right below.
$30 for the reprint "1700s in America"
To show how much was unknown about the Continental Currency pieces just six years ago:
(Andrea) "GRIMASON'S THEORY ON THE 1776 CONTINENTAL CURRENCY COINAGE" E-Sylum 2012
Responses to Andrea Grimason's article
Posted earlier by Cardinal in a different thread:
This was found in a German Almanac 1784
Imagine if a German version was discovered!
Apparently, the Continental Currency pieces were available in Germany well before they were available here.
Erik Goldstein also deserves plenty of credit for the article - while a lot of it was based on the posts in this thread, he did the heavy lifting where writing was concerned.
The contention that the medal theory has been debunked is an interesting one. In order to debunk a theory, you have to either demonstrate that it is logically unsound, or that it is incompatible with existing evidence.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
And now that the "1776" Continental Dollar has been debunked as an American issue of that year, should the Mint recall all of the 2006 Ben Franklin "Founding Father" dollars, that bear an image of the 1776 Continental Dollar on them?
Interesting how long-held numismatic beliefs fade when exposed to detailed, objective research. Good to see more of this!
Even if the Continental "Dollar" had been struck here, it's unlikely that Franklin had anything to do with the obverse - Rittenhouse was making clocks that said "Tempus Fugit - Go About Your Business" in 1756, and was one of the engravers used by Continental Congress on the paper money.
Of course, the BS about Franklin designing that side of the coin has been repeated so many times that it will probably be impossible to convince anyone that it's just something somebody made up. I should add that there is evidence that Franklin designed the Thirteen Rings/American Congress side of the paper money.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Franklin was also known as the first "Lord of the Rings," too.