Are there large stashes of unopened 70's cases out there?

jsanz

I'm new to this board and really want to thank some of you for your very interesting and informative info.

I love 1970's unopened product. I feel like there have to be cases sitting in warehouses forgotten. Remember this stuff was not worth much back then. Any good stories out there of some stashes of cases? Are there more Conlons out there just sitting on cases?

Here is my little story. I know of one guy who had a small warehouse of product. He was a grocery store owner for years and he was sitting on it as an investment. Too bad most of it was mid 80's - early 90's. He had a lot of cases with a few good ones but mostly junk. I told him to sell those 1987 cases when Bonds was really hot.

70ToppsFanatic

Welcome to the boards. Always great to have another 1970s unopened collector join the group.

I can only speak for myself (40+ years into this segment of the hobby), but I believe there are very
few (if any) unopened BB cases left from 1970-1977 (other than Conlon 1975 mini wax cases). If
there really were any we would have seen at least a few of them come out into the market during
the run-up we have had in the past 3 years.

The late 1970s (1978 and 1979), and also 1980, there a probably a small number out there still. A former
board member here (BBG) has had some 1979 rack cases up on eBay for a while now. BBCE has an unopened
tray case from 1979 on their website, and its been there 5 or 6 months now.

The only "known" stash of 1970s unopened seems to be the Fritsch inventory. A good deal of that is
vending, with a little bit of 1970 cello, 1973 wax, 1975 cello and 1979 rack mixed in on the BB side of
things. But despite advertising it every month, you never know if they are willing to sell any of it
when you call (and if they do agree to sell it they usually ask for more than the price shown in the
catalog).

So basically what we tend to see now for this era (at least in BB) are boxes that move from collector
to collector. And that supply is dwindling as time passes with things like group rips happening on
boards like this.

I'm sure you will get a bunch of opinions on this. Will be interesting to hear other perspectives.

gregf

I'm with 70ToppsFanatic on this one. If it was out there you would have seen it by now.

jsanz

I agree about LF. I bought 1979 Topps rack boxes from them 10+ years ago at about $600/box and sold them off years ago. I started getting back into unopened stuff a few years ago and tried to buy some from LF. They ignored my emails. They ran a coupon code and I ordered 10 online and they shipped 5 and said they ran out. I know that's not true. They have it relisted at a higher price. I think they did the same thing when I ordered boxes years ago, sent less than what I ordered and gave me a refund. I don't get it. Are they in business to sell or are they collectors holding on to it?

esquiresports

Welcome to the boards! Fellow 1970s unopened collector here.

In the late 1990s, when 1985-1991 product got hot, I went up and down the east coast purchasing hundreds of cases at a time sometimes of product from former/current candy distributors who were happy to finally get rid of their product. There wasn't a single time we came across anything pre-1984.

To sit 35+ years forgotten about is unlikely, but I am sure there are some cases out there somewhere. I've watched enough American Pickers to convince myself of this. Hah. I just don't believe there are a lot of examples of this yet to be discovered and when then eventually do surface is a big question mark.

gregf

Given the rarity of unopened 70's cases, where is 4sharpcorners getting all of their PSA 10 cards from? Is it possible that they're the ones sitting on a large stash of unopened 70's cases?

jsanz

Thanks, great first hand knowledge....Maybe I am watching too much American Pickers too. What if there is a Pickers type story where a large stash is found, would that supress prices? I think so, look at 1975 Minis. Not like they are cheap but they should be worth more if you think about their relative scarcity.

baz518

There's definitely cases out there, not many but I'm betting it's more than we think. I just don't think you're going to find them in abandoned warehouses or old candy store inventories... that supply dried up a long ago. But I have no doubts that there are collectors out there that have hoarded this stuff for years... with no intention whatsoever of getting rid of it before they die. By the late 80s, when the hobby peaked in popularity, 70s stuff was readily available and very affordable. To think all of it has been broken up and recycled among active collectors the last couple decades is a little naive IMO. Some people had enough that they didn't have to sell their entire stash while others had enough money that they didn't have to sell any of it.

1all

I think of the Fritsch warehouse like Willy Wonka's chocolate factory behind iron gates. Only the oompa loompas really know what inside. It wouldn't surprise me if they have more stuff than people imagine. That 1970-71 basketball vending box they recently auctioned off was pretty special.

jsanz

I was chatting with Reed from BBCE on facebook about this and he said he knows of/has seen some large accumulations but these people have no reason to sell. They don't need the money and he said they are in love with their stuff. He also said that BBCE is seeing very few cases of 1970s and they consider a deal with a good amount of unopened 1970s boxes a "large" deal now.

gregf

<< <i>I was chatting with Reed from BBCE on facebook about this and he said he knows of/has seen some large accumulations but these people have no reason to sell. They don't need the money and he said they are in love with their stuff. He also said that BBCE is seeing very few cases of 1970s and they consider a deal with a good amount of unopened 1970s boxes a "large" deal now. >>



It's worth noting that just because these collectors want to save this stuff it doesn't mean they'll be successful in doing so. Mother nature has a way of recycling things whether you want to or not.

dennis07

"Maybe I am watching too much American Pickers too. What if there is a Pickers type story where a large stash is found,"

No doubt Mike & Frank are on the lookout for vintage cards. It might not be their area of expertise but they know enough to
know what's valuable. To my knowledge they haven't made any major card finds and they've been on the air for years.

lahmejoon

<< <i>I can only speak for myself (40+ years into this segment of the hobby), but I believe there are very
few (if any) unopened BB cases left from 1970-1977 (other than Conlon 1975 mini wax cases). If
there really were any we would have seen at least a few of them come out into the market during
the run-up we have had in the past 3 years. >>



I would have to think that there are some cases out there in the hands of other heavy hitters in the hobby. Although I agree that the run up in value should have resulted in some cases surfacing, when it comes to folks who already have very deep pockets, I don't think the run up in value would matter as much. On the collector side, there is a certain amount of attachment and ego that goes into owning something. On the investment side, tax implications of unloading an appreciated collectible comes into play. I see too many people refusing to unload an asset solely because they can't stand the thought of writing a check to Uncle Sam.

gemint

I'm willing to bet there's more out there than we think. If they're still finding (albeit rarely) mint card stashes from the early 20th century, I'm sure there are still some pre-1980 cases sitting in attics, abandoned houses and personal collections. There was a coin dealer that posted on the BST forum a few years ago who purchased a house from a deceased card shop owner which was strewn with unopened boxes and packs from the early 70s through mid-80s. Granted these weren't unopened cases but they were unopened boxes and scarce rack packs. There are pack rats out there who are basically hermits and their stashes won't be found until, as gregf so aptly put, mother nature recycles them.

Stone193

God knows what guys like the Fritsch's are holding onto?

There was a seller - Bob Balanda who told me around 1992 that a guy near his home was sitting on a warehouse full of 70s unopened material.

Plus who knows what's truly out there in the hands of small collectors?

I don't collect unopened but when something comes up that's really reasonable - unopened late 70s in the early 90s was very affordable - I might pick something up.

With respect to 79T, e.g., I have a vending case, rack case - 1 box, 2 wax boxes. I'm sure there's many guys in my arena? Can't say for sure tho.

gregf

<< <i>I'm willing to bet there's more out there than we think. If they're still finding (albeit rarely) mint card stashes from the early 20th century, I'm sure there are still some pre-1980 cases sitting in attics, abandoned houses and personal collections. There was a coin dealer that posted on the BST forum a few years ago who purchased a house from a deceased card shop owner which was strewn with unopened boxes and packs from the early 70s through mid-80s. Granted these weren't unopened cases but they were unopened boxes and scarce rack packs. There are pack rats out there who are basically hermits and their stashes won't be found until, as gregf so aptly put, mother nature recycles them. >>



It's also possible that there's less out there than we think. And IMO, the longer we don't see it the less chance it's there.

baz518

I always like seeing that pic of your 79 stash... it's my favorite Topps set and can never get too much of them.

As far as Fritsch goes, I can only imagine what of his past inventory he kept for personal collection... but I can understand their philosophy. Their vintage is such a huge percentage of their inventory's value-- and they're currently a 2nd generation family run business-- they only want to sell enough to supplement the rest of their revenue and stay profitable for a long time. It prolongs your inventory and you keep getting current market rates. I just don't like how they go about it... just be up front and limit packs per customer (and don't even list boxes in your catalog).

Great thread btw.

seebelow

there are def more cases out there than people generally think...known and unknown...also including the always debated 86 fleer basketball..wink wink

Stone193

<< <i>I always like seeing that pic of your 79 stash... it's my favorite Topps set and can never get too much of them.

As far as Fritsch goes, I can only imagine what of his past inventory he kept for personal collection... but I can understand their philosophy. Their vintage is such a huge percentage of their inventory's value-- and they're currently a 2nd generation family run business-- they only want to sell enough to supplement the rest of their revenue and stay profitable for a long time. It prolongs your inventory and you keep getting current market rates. I just don't like how they go about it... just be up front and limit packs per customer (and don't even list boxes in your catalog).

Great thread btw. >>

Thanx.

BTW, the oldest wax I have is 76OPC - it's a beauty - I picked it up from the BBCardKid - Mark Murphy in 1993 - 48 really nice packs.

Wish I had picked up some 75s - tho I don't remember what they were going for back then?

seebelow

thats a pretty box

grote15

I think there may be some cases out there in private collections, but they are buried deep. Availability is another story~aside from the Conlon mini cases, there really hasn't been any 70s wax cases come up for sale over the past few years, at least, and with the market the way it is right now, you'd expect to see at least some of that buried product surafce at this point (I have seen cello, rack and vending cases surface). I recall when Steve had a 77 wax case a few years back~I bought a box participating in the group rip for $1,100, which seemed like a very strong price at the time!

gregf

Exactly. People have been saying there are more case out there than people think for many years now. And guess what? There have been less and less available as time has passed.

jsanz

Wow, some great stories. I guess only time will tell. It seems like we are split between believing there are still some rare cases out there and maybe the supply really is drying up. I'm still waiting to hear about a big "find" because it's always fun to hear the story behind it.

Here is my next question to keep the debate going. If and when the high dollar older cases come up for sale does anybody know about it or are they sold in private? Are they changing hands and we just don't know about it?

gregf

Plenty of sales go on in private. To quantify all of what happens is impossible. If I was to guess, for these high priced rare items, just as many trade hands privately as publicly.

baz518

<< <i>Exactly. People have been saying there are more case out there than people think for many years now. And guess what? There have been less and less available as time has passed. >>



It's easy to do when people think there are virtually none left... some is more than none. Once the majority of "disposable" cases get broken or into the vaults of hoarders, transactions will be few and far between regardless of actual supply. I still say there's an 86 Fleer basketball case out there somewhere... which won't surface until the owner wills it to someone who'll sell.

jsanz

There has to be a 1986 Fleer basketball case out there. Someone might have it and not even know what they have. Everyone who remembers it when it was released says it was junk and didn't sell. It could be just sitting in a garage somewhere or again maybe I am watching too much American Pickers. Anyone remember Mark Murphy searching for that elusive 1952 Topps case? He never found one as far as I know.

cuse

Wow...There's a name from the past Bob Blanda.. NYS Southern Tier guy. Anyone hear from or see Kenny Berg?? Great guy.So

baz518

I figure whoever has an 86 Fleer case probably knows it. Just being issued that close to the boom, someone had to get a hold of one for keeps. Either a pure collector that was lucky enough to find one or a dealer that had enough (and made enough $) that keeping one was a must... but both were taking it to their grave.

Stone193

One thing I'd like to say about unopened.

Let's say what we find is "good" - but what about price?

I paid under $900 for a 3 box 79T rack case; $2100 for a 79T vending case; $250 for a box of 79T wax; $700 for a 76OPC wax box e.g. And back when I bought a 3 box case of 81T racks? A few hundred bucks.

Is that stuff now priced out? Is it too much of a risk in terms of cost? I can talk all day long about how this is just a hobby and I don't concern myself with investment - but I would be lying to you "and" myself if I wake up tomorrow and can't even get the cost of a Starbucks latte for a box of cards.

I think that's why I never had unopened as a focus - I just didn't know enough about it. What I have in my closet is just plain ole luck - had no idea this stuff would get this costly.

Stone193

Very nice box Tim.

I would've been tempted at $1100.

jmsodpc

<< <i>Very nice box Tim.

I would've been tempted at $1100. >>



That same box has tripled in price nowadays.

gregf

<< <i>One thing I'd like to say about unopened.

Let's say what we find is "good" - but what about price?

I paid under $900 for a 3 box 79T rack case; $2100 for a 79T vending case; $250 for a box of 79T wax; $700 for a 76OPC wax box e.g. And back when I bought a 3 box case of 81T racks? A few hundred bucks.

Is that stuff now priced out? Is it too much of a risk in terms of cost? I can talk all day long about how this is just a hobby and I don't concern myself with investment - but I would be lying to you "and" myself if I wake up tomorrow and can't even get the cost of a Starbucks latte for a box of cards.

I think that's why I never had unopened as a focus - I just didn't know enough about it. What I have in my closet is just plain ole luck - had no idea this stuff would get this costly. >>



I don't think it will ever be priced out as there's always someone with more money. In terms of risk, I guess that all depends on what you're looking for and how long you're willing to wait to see the value kick in.

Some speculate that there are hoards of this stuff hidden somewhere, but it's never been uncovered, if it even exists. So the safe bet is that what you have will only increase in value over time, if it remains sealed and in prime condition.

That $900 3 box 79T rack case is now worth around $10,000. In time I think it will be worth double that. Why? Because these cases are just disappearing and people are still, if not more so, interested in having one.

I'd say the real risk is in ripping a sealed case or box FASC. If the cards inside are even worth grading, they won't bring in nearly enough to recoup the value of the unopened form. Before a few years ago, it didn't matter as much since the case itself wasn't worth that much, but now the stakes are quite high.

That said, the value of these graded cards, sometime from now, will probably be more valuable than the case is today. And for those who care not about money, that doesn't even matter, as the joy of ripping and submitting is what it's all about.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Stone193

<< <i>as the joy of ripping and submitting is what it's all about. >>

As long as this holds? People will be buying this stuff, I guess?

After all, "every" wax box, "every" rack box, e.g., has (potentially) a PSA 10 somebody in it. That's the allure.

I'm guessing the investor is holding onto unopened while the person looking for the diamond up a goat's ass hopes to pull that elusive "10?"

The whole thing interests me - that's why I've been in the hobby for 30 years.

gregf

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Topps-Football-Cello-Case-w-Original-Factory-Seals-Unopened-Sealed-/311381801204

1978 Topps Footeball Cello Case just popped up on eBay.

Guess there are a few out there!

grote15

That's a very clean looking 78 cello case, too.

shu4040

Wow that 78 case is super clean

jmsodpc

same case from auction 7 months ago

1954

There is very few unopened cases from any of the sports out there. I have been following this sector of the market for 11 years and I don't recall many cases selling in auctions. Yes there have been 10 or so cases from 1979 Baseball and I think the seven 75 mini cases that sold but I honestly cant remember any other year in case form that has been offered. I know of one member here on the boards that has a case of 1977 Topps wax and another who has some wax cases and vending from other years but other than the Frisch collection I am not aware of it. As someone else mentioned prior to this one "I would think we would have seen some of this come out once the prices exploded"

I would love to see data when the last case sold publically of all 1970's B,F,B,H from 2003 to present. I think that will answer Jsanz' question.

grote15

I recall Collect Auctions also sold a case of 75 baseball cellos for 67K a while back..

KurtisJoseph

I personally don't think there's much left out there . . .in any sizable quantity.

Grab your 4th series 1973, 1975 mini, and 1978s/1979s and call it a day.

One thing that does surprise me is you don't see as many 1980's football unopened cases as I would expect.

runningman

Sorry to be so vague but I remember reading in one of the hobby publications, probably in the eighties that there was a million dollar deal for early 70's cases that fell through because the seller wanted cash. Does anyone recall seeing or reading this article.

1954

that would have been a ton of cases for that kind of money. In the 80s those cases were not even close to the number today.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>I recall Collect Auctions also sold a case of 75 baseball cellos for 67K a while back.. >>



That was from the Fritsch inventory (as just about all of their unopened is).

Tony eTrade sold a 1977 BB wax case last year right after National. Other than that and the 1977 wax case that BBCE broke
here on the boards I don't have any records of a BB case sale (other than Fritsch and Conlon 75 minis) for at least 5 years.

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>I recall Collect Auctions also sold a case of 75 baseball cellos for 67K a while back.. >>



That was from the Fritsch inventory (as just about all of their unopened is).

Tony eTrade sold a 1977 BB wax case last year right after National. Other than that and the 1977 wax case that BBCE broke
here on the boards I don't have any records of a BB case sale (other than Fritsch and Conlon 75 minis) for at least 5 years. >>



David, there was also a 79 baseball cello case sale auctioned off by MH back in 2013 that closed at 19K.

jmsodpc

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I recall Collect Auctions also sold a case of 75 baseball cellos for 67K a while back.. >>



That was from the Fritsch inventory (as just about all of their unopened is).

Tony eTrade sold a 1977 BB wax case last year right after National. Other than that and the 1977 wax case that BBCE broke
here on the boards I don't have any records of a BB case sale (other than Fritsch and Conlon 75 minis) for at least 5 years. >>



David, there was also a 79 baseball cello case sale auctioned off by MH back in 2013 that closed at 19K. >>



that was mine

1954

I actually remember seeing that 77 case that Tonytrade had at the National. I have never seen a case of 1970-74 and 76 ever come to market.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>I actually remember seeing that 77 case that Tonytrade had at the National. I have never seen a case of 1970-74 and 76 ever come to market. >>



Agreed. And past 1977 was not particularly interesting to track until the last 18-24 months.

grote15

<< <i>I actually remember seeing that 77 case that Tonytrade had at the National. I have never seen a case of 1970-74 and 76 ever come to market. >>



I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I also recall a couple of 1975 Topps baseball rack cases being sold at auction a few years back. Don't think you'll ever see anything come up for sale, case-wise, from 1970-1974, but 76 has a shot.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>

<< <i>I actually remember seeing that 77 case that Tonytrade had at the National. I have never seen a case of 1970-74 and 76 ever come to market. >>



I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I also recall a couple of 1975 Topps baseball rack cases being sold at auction a few years back. Don't think you'll ever see anything come up for sale, case-wise, from 1970-1974, but 76 has a shot. >>



There was rumor of a 1974 rack case last year, but it never materialized.

canjond

I wouldn't put too much stock in what Bob Balanda has to say!