Let me be clear here: by no means am I comparing this to a Christmas rack pack or a clearly bogus 1971 rack pack. But, I have been in the hobby for nearly 40 years and have been a near daily reader of these boards for a long time. I consider myself an above-average educated collector if not very educated. That being said, it wasn't until the last year or so that I realized that a "1974 Topps Baseball Unopened Wax Box" may not actually not an unopened wax box, but a box containing 36 unopened packs (could be from multiple boxes). We can argue all day about whether those are the same thing, but to me they are not even close (I know this has been discussed before). Is there any reason that the unopened wax box descriptions couldn't specify exactly what the buyer is getting? Is this really any different with regards to "buyer be educated"?
This question is not directed specifically at pack collector, I'm just curious how everyone feels. >>
This is the problem with wrapping/encapsulating full boxes. I've pointed the same thing out in the past with regard to GAI encapsulated boxes. The only way for an educated buyer to determine whether a box is pieced together or original is to examine the packs for uniformity. Steve is obviously capable of making this determination in most cases, but I guess he doesn't feel he can be certain enough to stand behind it.
That being the case, I would need to see the packs, and would never buy a box like this unless it was FASC.
The purpose of wrapping a vintage box is to add a level of confidence for the buyer in that all packs in the box are authentic and unopened. The only way to guarantee that the box is also original and intact is if it's FASC. However, these boxes were not factory sealed and finding an unopened case of 1974 product is essentially impossible at this point. There are ways to determine if a box is likely original: wrapper distributoon throughout the box, uniformity of the packs therein, but for most unopened collectors, authenticity is most significant.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>The purpose of wrapping a vintage box is to add a level of confidence for the buyer in that all packs in the box are authentic and unopened. The only way to guarantee that the box is also original and intact is if it's FASC. However, these boxes were not factory sealed and finding an unopened case of 1974 product is essentially impossible at this point. There are ways to determine if a box is likely original: wrapper distributoon throughout the box, uniformity of the packs therein, but for most unopened collectors, authenticity is most significant. >>
Maybe I'm just very anal, but non-uniformity of pack appearance within a box would be a real turn off to me, even if I believed all the packs were legit. And I do think 9 times out of 10 it's pretty obvious when a box is original if you can look at the packs.
Just to clarify, the point of my question wasn't to discuss the difficulties in determining if a box was indeed "unopened", but whether or not the description of the box should indicate that the box may consist of packs from multiple boxes (if / when there is any uncertainty).
<< <i>The purpose of wrapping a vintage box is to add a level of confidence for the buyer in that all packs in the box are authentic and unopened. The only way to guarantee that the box is also original and intact is if it's FASC. However, these boxes were not factory sealed and finding an unopened case of 1974 product is essentially impossible at this point. There are ways to determine if a box is likely original: wrapper distributoon throughout the box, uniformity of the packs therein, but for most unopened collectors, authenticity is most significant. >>
Maybe I'm just very anal, but non-uniformity of pack appearance within a box would be a real turn off to me, even if I believed all the packs were legit. And I do think 9 times out of 10 it's pretty obvious when a box is original if you can look at the packs. >>
If you feel that way, just stick to boxes from later years for which sealed cases still exist, and just collect single packs from earlier years.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Just to clarify, the point of my question wasn't to discuss the difficulties in determining if a box was indeed "unopened", but whether or not the description of the box should indicate that the box may consist of packs from multiple boxes (if / when there is any uncertainty). >>
The idea is a worthwhile one, but the problem is that there really is no way to know for certain if a box is original unless it is FASC. (Though there certainly are ways to rule it out.) Sure, there are ways to make an informed assessment, but there is no way to state such for certain unless the box is FASC, which is where the premium lies.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
PWCC has implemented significant changes following feedback from this and other message board posts. We did want to follow up on the issues that required eBay cooperation:
For the past three years, we have partnered with eBay to develop new methods and tools for ensuring an honest bidding environment, with a particular focus around bid retractions. We await several final decisions from eBay, but PWCC will initiate a new post on this and other message boards announcing PWCC and eBay’s jointly-created plan to limit fraud on the eBay platform, and restricting bidding from users with a history of bid retractions will be specifically addressed. I expect to make this post by the end of next week.
As always, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions.
Originally posted by: PWCCAuctions PWCC has implemented significant changes following feedback from this and other message board posts. We did want to follow up on the issues that required eBay cooperation:
For the past three years, we have partnered with eBay to develop new methods and tools for ensuring an honest bidding environment, with a particular focus around bid retractions. We await several final decisions from eBay, but PWCC will initiate a new post on this and other message boards announcing PWCC and eBay’s jointly-created plan to limit fraud on the eBay platform, and restricting bidding from users with a history of bid retractions will be specifically addressed. I expect to make this post by the end of next week.
As always, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions.
Excellent! Thanks for spearheading this effort, as it is sorely needed!
Comments
<< <i>
I'm glad you brought this up, because the one thought that keeps coming to my mind as I read this thread is an item such as this:
1974 box
Let me be clear here: by no means am I comparing this to a Christmas rack pack or a clearly bogus 1971 rack pack. But, I have been in the hobby for nearly 40 years and have been a near daily reader of these boards for a long time. I consider myself an above-average educated collector if not very educated. That being said, it wasn't until the last year or so that I realized that a "1974 Topps Baseball Unopened Wax Box" may not actually not an unopened wax box, but a box containing 36 unopened packs (could be from multiple boxes). We can argue all day about whether those are the same thing, but to me they are not even close (I know this has been discussed before). Is there any reason that the unopened wax box descriptions couldn't specify exactly what the buyer is getting? Is this really any different with regards to "buyer be educated"?
This question is not directed specifically at pack collector, I'm just curious how everyone feels. >>
This is the problem with wrapping/encapsulating full boxes. I've pointed the same thing out in the past with regard to GAI encapsulated boxes. The only way for an educated buyer to determine whether a box is pieced together or original is to examine the packs for uniformity. Steve is obviously capable of making this determination in most cases, but I guess he doesn't feel he can be certain enough to stand behind it.
That being the case, I would need to see the packs, and would never buy a box like this unless it was FASC.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>The purpose of wrapping a vintage box is to add a level of confidence for the buyer in that all packs in the box are authentic and unopened. The only way to guarantee that the box is also original and intact is if it's FASC. However, these boxes were not factory sealed and finding an unopened case of 1974 product is essentially impossible at this point. There are ways to determine if a box is likely original: wrapper distributoon throughout the box, uniformity of the packs therein, but for most unopened collectors, authenticity is most significant. >>
Maybe I'm just very anal, but non-uniformity of pack appearance within a box would be a real turn off to me, even if I believed all the packs were legit. And I do think 9 times out of 10 it's pretty obvious when a box is original if you can look at the packs.
<< <i>
<< <i>The purpose of wrapping a vintage box is to add a level of confidence for the buyer in that all packs in the box are authentic and unopened. The only way to guarantee that the box is also original and intact is if it's FASC. However, these boxes were not factory sealed and finding an unopened case of 1974 product is essentially impossible at this point. There are ways to determine if a box is likely original: wrapper distributoon throughout the box, uniformity of the packs therein, but for most unopened collectors, authenticity is most significant. >>
Maybe I'm just very anal, but non-uniformity of pack appearance within a box would be a real turn off to me, even if I believed all the packs were legit. And I do think 9 times out of 10 it's pretty obvious when a box is original if you can look at the packs. >>
If you feel that way, just stick to boxes from later years for which sealed cases still exist, and just collect single packs from earlier years.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Just to clarify, the point of my question wasn't to discuss the difficulties in determining if a box was indeed "unopened", but whether or not the description of the box should indicate that the box may consist of packs from multiple boxes (if / when there is any uncertainty). >>
The idea is a worthwhile one, but the problem is that there really is no way to know for certain if a box is original unless it is FASC. (Though there certainly are ways to rule it out.) Sure, there are ways to make an informed assessment, but there is no way to state such for certain unless the box is FASC, which is where the premium lies.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For the past three years, we have partnered with eBay to develop new methods and tools for ensuring an honest bidding environment, with a particular focus around bid retractions. We await several final decisions from eBay, but PWCC will initiate a new post on this and other message boards announcing PWCC and eBay’s jointly-created plan to limit fraud on the eBay platform, and restricting bidding from users with a history of bid retractions will be specifically addressed. I expect to make this post by the end of next week.
As always, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions.
PWCC Marketplace
market@pwccmarketplace.com
833-333-7922
PWCC has implemented significant changes following feedback from this and other message board posts. We did want to follow up on the issues that required eBay cooperation:
For the past three years, we have partnered with eBay to develop new methods and tools for ensuring an honest bidding environment, with a particular focus around bid retractions. We await several final decisions from eBay, but PWCC will initiate a new post on this and other message boards announcing PWCC and eBay’s jointly-created plan to limit fraud on the eBay platform, and restricting bidding from users with a history of bid retractions will be specifically addressed. I expect to make this post by the end of next week.
As always, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions.
Excellent! Thanks for spearheading this effort, as it is sorely needed!