PWCC & eBay - help us improve the hobby
PWCCAuctions
Posts: 15 ✭✭
(Note: this post was also placed on the net54 boards)
Dear Fellow Collectors,
I need to get something off my chest. My general policy is to let the message boards run free, but occasionally I need to make a post where I defend accusations, otherwise some folks may consider our lack of response as sign of guilt.
Do some folks really believe that we manipulate our scans?
Do some believe we orchestrate and/or tolerate shill bidding in our auctions?
For those who know us, or know me personally, it’s clear that these acts of fraud are simply not in my DNA. For those who don’t know me or PWCC and who choose the conspiracy theory approach, I offer logic to refute these claims. The logic is this… we only clear a couple % on each sale, so we simply don’t have the time or resources to manipulate individual auctions. Not to mention that the risk associated with trying to manipulate an auction is immeasurable; it would destroy our brand and everything I’ve worked hard to accomplish.
Our Scans:
Regarding our scanning, all I can say is that we use the same settings for every card we scan in each auction. Never do we go in and adjust the settings for an individual card. If you don’t like our scans, I suppose you can accuse us of having bad scans, but please forgo the accusation that we are manipulating them artificially. We never receive returns from buyers who felt our scans were inaccurate. In fact, I just checked our return history over the last 12 months and there’s not a single instance where the bidder sights the scan as having been enhanced artificially. What does that tell you? I admit that the settings we used in prior years with old equipment was simply were not universally accurate (in my opinion); sometimes making some issues appear ‘hot’ or overly bright. In our defense, it’s hard to make one group of settings that optimize every card issue from 1888-2014. As technology has improved, so have our scanners and we feel that our current images are extremely accurate. If folks are upset with past images, I sincerely apologize and perhaps those folks prefer our current representations more.
Policing Bidders:
On the topic of bid behavior it’s particularly frustrating to be accused of auction manipulation when I actually feel we are working to improve bidder behavior more than anyone else. It's impossible to watch every auction, but we police the bid as much as we can and have blocked more bidder ids for bad behavior than anyone else I know. As our company has matured we have had various policies come and go, some of which have proven more intelligent than others. For example one program I regret most was from 2009/2010 when we allowed consignors to place a single ‘reserve bid’ on a consigned lot if they received approval from us. This sort of thing was more-or-less accepted back in 2009 and we didn't think anything of it at the time (hidden reserves are still part of the hobby with many auction houses). In hindsight this wasn’t a smart program to have engaged in because it opened the door to abuse. We made a mistake offering this as a service and ended it in 2010. We certainly didn’t want to hurt the hobby and we have not offered this option for over 5 years. This is just an example of where we admit to being imperfect and we sincerely hope folks don’t hold this against us. Every business goes through a maturation and we continue to mature alongside the hobby at large.
eBay & the Hobby
It’s important to remember that eBay is a public auction venue, so when dealing with the public, bidding isn’t always squeaky clean. There are a lot of eccentric behavior in the hobby and it’s not fair to accuse every instance of manipulation. In my experience, 8/10 times something that looks fishy is actually legitimate. Obviously bidder behavior on eBay isn’t perfect, but we are absolutely doing all we can to help improve the marketplace. We hope folks can view accusations that PWCC is somehow the source any bad bidder behavior as illogical; we have nothing to gain and everything to lose from such acts.
So what is PWCC doing to help?
Two weeks ago I was at the 2015 West Coast Seller Summit hosted by eBay where I spoke at length with the eBay’s Trust & Safety team regarding bidder behavior and buyer quality. I am also attending a panel discussion on 6/11 with eBay where I will again be pressing for more seller tools that help us filter and police bidding. This panel discussion will be among 200 eBay employees and I’m one of only 4 sellers who’ve been invited to offer their opinions. In particular I am working to get the following tools implemented:
a) Stricter penalties for bid retractors who don’t follow the prescribed rules
b) Much stricter penalties for users with unpaid items on their record
c) IP address monitoring to ensure two or more accounts are never placing bids on the same item
d) Contact information cross checks to ensure bad users are not able to create new accounts
e) Stricter policies on how bidders with prior bad behavior are allowed to return to bidding (.i.e. forced instant payment with vetted credit cards on file, etc)
f) Seller tools that allow us to specify which bidders are allowed to bid (relative to the number and type of infraction listed above).
*Does anyone have other ideas that I could forward on to eBay? How can we make eBay the most trusted sale environment on the internet? Please help us make it better and post your thoughts to this thread.
I again ask that folks be constructive in their comments and I will indeed follow up in a week to review all posts and issue replies where needed. We appreciate everyone’s feedback.
Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
[email]brent@pwccauctions.com[/email]
Dear Fellow Collectors,
I need to get something off my chest. My general policy is to let the message boards run free, but occasionally I need to make a post where I defend accusations, otherwise some folks may consider our lack of response as sign of guilt.
Do some folks really believe that we manipulate our scans?
Do some believe we orchestrate and/or tolerate shill bidding in our auctions?
For those who know us, or know me personally, it’s clear that these acts of fraud are simply not in my DNA. For those who don’t know me or PWCC and who choose the conspiracy theory approach, I offer logic to refute these claims. The logic is this… we only clear a couple % on each sale, so we simply don’t have the time or resources to manipulate individual auctions. Not to mention that the risk associated with trying to manipulate an auction is immeasurable; it would destroy our brand and everything I’ve worked hard to accomplish.
Our Scans:
Regarding our scanning, all I can say is that we use the same settings for every card we scan in each auction. Never do we go in and adjust the settings for an individual card. If you don’t like our scans, I suppose you can accuse us of having bad scans, but please forgo the accusation that we are manipulating them artificially. We never receive returns from buyers who felt our scans were inaccurate. In fact, I just checked our return history over the last 12 months and there’s not a single instance where the bidder sights the scan as having been enhanced artificially. What does that tell you? I admit that the settings we used in prior years with old equipment was simply were not universally accurate (in my opinion); sometimes making some issues appear ‘hot’ or overly bright. In our defense, it’s hard to make one group of settings that optimize every card issue from 1888-2014. As technology has improved, so have our scanners and we feel that our current images are extremely accurate. If folks are upset with past images, I sincerely apologize and perhaps those folks prefer our current representations more.
Policing Bidders:
On the topic of bid behavior it’s particularly frustrating to be accused of auction manipulation when I actually feel we are working to improve bidder behavior more than anyone else. It's impossible to watch every auction, but we police the bid as much as we can and have blocked more bidder ids for bad behavior than anyone else I know. As our company has matured we have had various policies come and go, some of which have proven more intelligent than others. For example one program I regret most was from 2009/2010 when we allowed consignors to place a single ‘reserve bid’ on a consigned lot if they received approval from us. This sort of thing was more-or-less accepted back in 2009 and we didn't think anything of it at the time (hidden reserves are still part of the hobby with many auction houses). In hindsight this wasn’t a smart program to have engaged in because it opened the door to abuse. We made a mistake offering this as a service and ended it in 2010. We certainly didn’t want to hurt the hobby and we have not offered this option for over 5 years. This is just an example of where we admit to being imperfect and we sincerely hope folks don’t hold this against us. Every business goes through a maturation and we continue to mature alongside the hobby at large.
eBay & the Hobby
It’s important to remember that eBay is a public auction venue, so when dealing with the public, bidding isn’t always squeaky clean. There are a lot of eccentric behavior in the hobby and it’s not fair to accuse every instance of manipulation. In my experience, 8/10 times something that looks fishy is actually legitimate. Obviously bidder behavior on eBay isn’t perfect, but we are absolutely doing all we can to help improve the marketplace. We hope folks can view accusations that PWCC is somehow the source any bad bidder behavior as illogical; we have nothing to gain and everything to lose from such acts.
So what is PWCC doing to help?
Two weeks ago I was at the 2015 West Coast Seller Summit hosted by eBay where I spoke at length with the eBay’s Trust & Safety team regarding bidder behavior and buyer quality. I am also attending a panel discussion on 6/11 with eBay where I will again be pressing for more seller tools that help us filter and police bidding. This panel discussion will be among 200 eBay employees and I’m one of only 4 sellers who’ve been invited to offer their opinions. In particular I am working to get the following tools implemented:
a) Stricter penalties for bid retractors who don’t follow the prescribed rules
b) Much stricter penalties for users with unpaid items on their record
c) IP address monitoring to ensure two or more accounts are never placing bids on the same item
d) Contact information cross checks to ensure bad users are not able to create new accounts
e) Stricter policies on how bidders with prior bad behavior are allowed to return to bidding (.i.e. forced instant payment with vetted credit cards on file, etc)
f) Seller tools that allow us to specify which bidders are allowed to bid (relative to the number and type of infraction listed above).
*Does anyone have other ideas that I could forward on to eBay? How can we make eBay the most trusted sale environment on the internet? Please help us make it better and post your thoughts to this thread.
I again ask that folks be constructive in their comments and I will indeed follow up in a week to review all posts and issue replies where needed. We appreciate everyone’s feedback.
Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
[email]brent@pwccauctions.com[/email]
PWCC Marketplace
market@pwccmarketplace.com
833-333-7922
0
Comments
if i thought shilling was going on, i would not participate.
do your thing. stay off of the boards.
I had a customer get upset with me last year and suspect he was the one who created a new account and bought a bunch of stuff from me on ebay with no intention of paying. He created the new account with a completely fake name and address and that same day made the purchases from me. I forget what name he used but it was obviously fake. It was a Canadian address and the postal code he used was HOH HOH which is the postal code you use for sending letters to Santa Clause in Canada. I knew it was fake right away so just had to wait however many days to get the fees back but when I called ebay to try and figure out how this was possible they had no answers.
Card collectors can be very flaky / whiny and every low feedback bidder to some guys, or any auction that hits a new high, has to be shill bid. They can't believe anyone else would pay a premium and their lazy analysis is that the auction was shilled.
This post of your is appreciated and don't allow yourself to get sucked into defending outlier examples of bad bidding behavour. IMO Ebay needs to figure this out, it's their auction house and they have the resources to ban bid retractors and NPB and track IP addresses. All good ideas.
<< <i>Do some folks really believe that we manipulate our scans? >>
Nothing I've purchased from you would lead me to believe that, though I'm sure 'some folks' do.
<< <i>Do some believe we orchestrate and/or tolerate shill bidding in our auctions? >>
I don't believe you orchestrate any shilling, though it is in eBay, Paypal, and all eBay Consignee's interest to not police it too hard. Consignors enjoy a level of abstraction, so it's typically not as obvious when shilling a consigned item vs. one put up for sale directly by an individual. As a publicly traded company, why would eBay want to spend time/effort/money developing tools to police shilling which could/would hurt their bottom line? I don't know of any way a bidder can report suspected shilling to eBay or if there are any resources available to investigate, so I don't see it as a priority for them. Chip bidding by low/mid-double digit feedback users with a retraction as soon as the high bid is exposed are the obvious examples and I don't know that there is any punishment for it. How could eBay (or any AH) police having a high-school buddy placing shill bids? I think most experienced bidders just assume that shilling is a fact of life in any auction environment and accept that risk.
One suggestion on bid retractions is that all of that users bids are retracted for that item, high bid is adjusted back down, and that user is not allowed to place any further bids on that item. It's not a perfect solution, but would make it more difficult to shill than it currently is. Restoring bidders usernames in the bid history would go a long way in building trust in the auctions. I would also like to see something done about collusion, but don't have any immediate ideas for detection.
<< <i>I don't know of any way a bidder can report suspected shilling to eBay or if there are any resources available to investigate, so I don't see it as a priority for them. >>
Click the "report item" button, then "listing practices", then "fraudulent listing activities."
One of the reasons I think the auctions they run bring in many cases higher prices is you know you are dealing with a quality seller and by having so many top level items it brings out the big guns. The number of eyeballs that are generated from their listings is in so many cases dramatically higher then other sellers and nothing slips through the cracks.
I love the presentation and get excited when a see a few words in the listings about the cards I collect. It is always exciting when I know a package is coming from your operations because it will always be shipped safely and promptly.
Ebay needs to work on bid retractions. It is unacceptable in my view to retract a bid for any reason other then a data entry error. In a case like that a retraction should be allowed with an immediate fresh bid entered. If for some reason you bid $5,000 and meant to bid $500 then a quick cancel and rebuild should be allowed.
I can say with a high level of confidence there has never been one surprise when I got the card in hand. You can't say that about all sellers and once again this boosts final selling prices.
I always look forward to seeing your listings even though very few are related to my area of collecting as there are so many great items to see.
Good luck with your business and congratulations on the success you have had.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know of any way a bidder can report suspected shilling to eBay or if there are any resources available to investigate, so I don't see it as a priority for them. >>
Click the "report item" button, then "listing practices", then "fraudulent listing activities." >>
Thanks for the path, that helps a bit, but would be more useful on the actual 'Bids' page and is difficult to find after an auction is over. If a consignor was shilling their own item, wouldn't they investigate Brent and not the consignor? It doesn't seem like they've put much thought into a consignment situation, where it's easiest to shill.
ETA: I've also consigned with and made many purchases from PWCC auctions. I'm a very satisfied customer.
I've only purchased one card from you. While happy with my purchase, I felt that the $400+ card should have been shipped in a box instead of a bubble mailer.
There's this site, net54, many other sites (some private), Facebook groups....I've read negative comments about you and others all over the net. You'll never be able to police it. It's good to jump in every once in awhile, but for the sake of your business, I'd stay off these sites as much as possible.
I still think that you have a better service than others and I recommend you to everyone
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
One thing I would ask you to comment on is your policy on selling fake rack packs and christmas packs This is where I feel you have done the hobby a disservice and have hidden behind semantics to list items for buyers who most likely got burned and got got stuck with garbage. I have said it in another post and I will say it again here, no reputable dealer will take a fake pack, resealed pack, or fake christmas pack(not the original murphy packs) either for consignment or for real. It is fake and only been made to defraud an unsuspecting buyer. why would you put yourself in a position to taint your reputation? makes no sense to me
I also agree with others saying it is a small minority that screams "shill bidding" every time a card goes higher than they deem it is worth.
The majority or the common sense folks understand haters will hate & there's really no use to argue with them. Misery loves misery.
Last I would like to include myself as one who does not think it is in PWCC best interest to sell Xmas racks.
Thank you & keep up the good work over at PWCC.
Even though sellers can't leave negative feedback for buyers, I'd like ebay to implement a policy where after a winning bidder receives an unpaid item strike for an item, they then receive a negative feedback that is automatically generated by ebay. Also, quantity of unpaid item strikes should be public record, same as feedback.
From a buyer perspective, we are able to report duplicate items when there are 2 of an auction or 2 of a fixed price, but not when there is one fixed price and one auction by the same seller. I'd advise that they address that situation.
<< <i>I think Brent is a class act. Several years ago I put in a call to him about an auction and we spoke for about 45 minutes and I could tell he was someone I would want to do business with.
One of the reasons I think the auctions they run bring in many cases higher prices is you know you are dealing with a quality seller and by having so many top level items it brings out the big guns. The number of eyeballs that are generated from their listings is in so many cases dramatically higher then other sellers and nothing slips through the cracks.
I love the presentation and get excited when a see a few words in the listings about the cards I collect. It is always exciting when I know a package is coming from your operations because it will always be shipped safely and promptly.
Ebay needs to work on bid retractions. It is unacceptable in my view to retract a bid for any reason other then a data entry error. In a case like that a retraction should be allowed with an immediate fresh bid entered. If for some reason you bid $5,000 and meant to bid $500 then a quick cancel and rebuild should be allowed.
I can say with a high level of confidence there has never been one surprise when I got the card in hand. You can't say that about all sellers and once again this boosts final selling prices.
I always look forward to seeing your listings even though very few are related to my area of collecting as there are so many great items to see.
Good luck with your business and congratulations on the success you have had. >>
Well said! 100% agree!
I have bought over the years and recently started consigning to your auctions after having watched your prices consistently meet or exceed other auction houses' prices. What made me commit my cards to your auction is your sliding commission scale...keeping more money in my pocket on high end, high priced cards.
As far as the scans...I did notice early on in your business that cards had an artificially eye-popping eye appeal...but you have corrected that and scans now present as is. I appreciate knowing that I will not have any surprises once the card is in hand.
I do have one suggestion in regards to scans. Some auction houses allow viewing cards close up. That is...when you click on the scan...it enlarges (magnifies) the view allowing inspection of corners easier. Including that feature would be appreciated!
Overall...you seem to have high integrity and operate your business in professional, courtesy manner.
Monte
Ask eBay why once an auction reaches a certain amount the bidder needs to be approved first. Your fairly recent Babe Ruth auction missed at least two bidders snipes and, as a result, left a lot of money on the table for the person who sent that card to you. Maybe you can put this in your listings as a head's up?
On my list of things I never wish to do in this life, collaborating with eBay to purge the system has to rank somewhere near the top. As someone previously mentioned, it's in their best interest from a profitability standpoint to do nothing beyond the absolute bare minimum when it comes to critical issues like shill bidding. I wish I were less cynical, but 17 years of turning a blind eye has brought me to this point. If they truly cared, there would be restraining orders on individuals with 100 bid retractions in the past six months. I wish you well in what is bound to be a fruitless endeavor.
This has already been mentioned up above, but I think it's worth revisiting. Christmas racks. Those things are nothing short of cringeworthy. Sure, there's a market for them, but sometimes the ability to make an honest buck can easily cloud the bigger, more important picture. Let's call them what they are -- fabricated and illegitimate. Whenever I scroll through one of PWCC's monthly auctions and see one in the same lineup as a '52 Mick, it's akin to visiting an art gallery full of Picassos and seeing a portrait of stick figures that I drew. Completely out of place, don't belong, and it sullies an otherwise glorious presentation of cardboard.
Once again, major props for stepping out into the sunlight and transforming the status quo, and here's hoping for continued success moving forward.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I get so frustrated with sellers runner their own personal museum on eBay with overly priced cards that I have to sift through to get to items like you offer.
Businesses will always have their critics, but I hope you sleep well at night because I see you as an ethical businessman that is interested in the hobby.
Tony
<< <i>One suggestion on bid retractions is that all of that users bids are retracted for that item, high bid is adjusted back down, and that user is not allowed to place any further bids on that item. It's not a perfect solution, but would make it more difficult to shill than it currently is. Restoring bidders usernames in the bid history would go a long way in building trust in the auctions. I would also like to see something done about collusion, but don't have any immediate ideas for detection. >>
I agree with this. The more transparency the less funny business will go on. There also used to be a way to search history by buyer ID which is no longer available in the "Advanced" link (next to Search). This was also very helpful in creating transparency. I'd love for that to come back as well.
<< <i>Thank you Brent. I bid often on your auctions and SO appreciate that you still conduct auctions.
I get so frustrated with sellers runner their own personal museum on eBay with overly priced cards that I have to sift through to get to items like you offer.
Businesses will always have their critics, but I hope you sleep well at night because I see you as an ethical businessman that is interested in the hobby.
Tony >>
Hit "auctions only" to skip the buy it nows.
Let's get right to it, the description of those holiday packs is horrid:
Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.
That's a roundabout way of burying the fact that these packs are not from the year that they are being used to lure people into buying.
If it only happened once then fine, but you have sold many of these packs and have received many complaints about them.
Why are you not doing anything about these items? I think you should at least describe them correctly if you're going to sell them.
I have consigned with Brent and purchased from his auctions many many times and there is no one better. His responsiveness and integrity are 2nd to none. He has worked with me consistently and is fair and honest. If eBay is the route you want to go to consign, you won't find anyone better. When you consider the number of auctions he runs month to month, there is going to be an occasional slip through the cracks that someone may have an issue with, but it is impossible to please everyone all the time. Haters gonna be hating
It has been great watching PWCC grow and have success as it's a testament to hard work and high integrity paying off.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>I know his intent was not to make this thread a "tribute to PWCC" type thread, but I feel compelled to get on the bus.
I have consigned with Brent and purchased from his auctions many many times and there is no one better. His responsiveness and integrity are 2nd to none. He has worked with me consistently and is fair and honest. If eBay is the route you want to go to consign, you won't find anyone better. When you consider the number of auctions he runs month to month, there is going to be an occasional slip through the cracks that someone may have an issue with, but it is impossible to please everyone all the time. Haters gonna be hating
It has been great watching PWCC grow and have success as it's a testament to hard work and high integrity paying off. >>
He's a great seller no doubt but 131 X-Mas rack sales (EDIT: since May 9th) with questionable (at the very least) descriptions is not a slip through the cracks IMO. I think this issue needs to be addressed immediately.
Aware you really Probstein123???
<< <i>You seem pretty informed for someone w-only 3 posts--
Aware you really Probstein123???
Now I have Probstein123 4 posts!
Searching eBay completed listings for PWCC doesn't take much knowhow and I think a lot of collectors are concerned with this specific area (X-mas packs) of what PWCC is selling.
I'm sure Brent will address the issue when he comes back in a week to post here. I just wish he'd do it sooner!
Your reputation is second to none and you have nothing to prove here. My opinion, I would stay off the boards. A reason why? About 6-months ago, Steve Hart from the BBCE intentionally wrapped four, not one but four boxes of 1979 Topps Baseball wax boxes for 1970sToppsFanatic as FASC when in fact EVERY single member here knew those boxes did not come from a sealed case. Even 1970sToppsFanatic admitted so. Steve Hart was called out by several members of the message board for response and choose NEVER to respond. A little time went by and that impropriety was overlooked.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Hopefully this thread can stay alive.
<< <i>T Restoring bidders usernames in the bid history would go a long way in building trust in the auctions. >>
+2 for this.
I never figured out why ebay dumped the bidder ID's...
Collector of Vintage Golf cards! Let me know what you might have.
<< <i>
<< <i>T Restoring bidders usernames in the bid history would go a long way in building trust in the auctions. >>
+2 for this.
I never figured out why ebay dumped the bidder ID's... >>
Because it makes it easier to circumvent eBay and do deals.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>T Restoring bidders usernames in the bid history would go a long way in building trust in the auctions. >>
+2 for this.
I never figured out why ebay dumped the bidder ID's... >>
Because it makes it easier to circumvent eBay and do deals. >>
That is definitely the primary reason. The number of bid retractions for many bidders is simply mindboggling, too, and the current system helps to disguise that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
1) Christmas packs.
2) better shipping methods.
3) concerns for shilling.
4) answer emails.
5) add a disclaimer to listings that eBay may require pre-approval for high dollar items.
6) better scans (zoom feature)
7) discontinue elaborate descriptions (let pictures do the selling)
<< <i>I messaged PWCC concerning the Christmas packs while they were active and my questions were ignored. >>
My, you're like CU's answer to cardcop05, aren't you now! You do have a point about the "haters" though... that argument is a predictably myopic response to at least some of the criticism.
That criticism aside, I still consider Brent to be about as good as it gets in the consignment business and believe PWCC does far more to combat shill bidding than his competition.
Unfortunately eBay is the only one in a position to meaningfully curb shill bidding, and to date they've shown little interest in doing so.
Lastly, I very much appreciate Brent soliciting input from the hobby to take back to eBay and give us all a voice... even if I am less than optimistic about eBay listening.
Snorto~
<< <i>People keep saying "haters going to hate" but I'm not reading hate here. I see some constructive feedback from members to help improve PWCCs business. If people truly hate PWCC, the best thing to do would be to not say anything and continue letting him make those mistakes.
I was one that used the "Haters" term, and as for myself & I believe others, we used the term not to refer to what has been posted in this particular thread, but to many previous threads. I pretty much agree that the haters have not attacked this thread yet, but some great constructive criticism & feedback has come to the surface. With the choices that we now have to purchase, it seems that PWCC is a pretty good avenue according to many.
What I appreciate most is how organized PWCC is. They have a very structured process that allows you to know exactly what is going on at any time, thru their emails and client portal. Brent always responds to emails and does so timely. This builds trust.
I would rate them a 10 on their process and structure, and I plan to continue to use their services.
Dpeck100, ClockworkAngel and any others what do you think about it?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
1. Because they are a scam
2. yes, and idiots
3. Probably, or at least complacent.
Anyone who sells these loses a ton of credibility in my eyes. They are garbage, plain and simple, and do not belong in the hobby.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Where did Murphy first get his ? Who packed the ones he came up with originally and what years did they cover ? What year were they first packaged ? Were they ever really retailed at Christmas and if so by what company or company and where? Is the same person(s) who packed them originally still doing so and have they expanded to more years, and if so when ? Or has a new generation of packers arisen ? Are they from one source or many ? Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
Al, the issue is not the packs that Murphy brought to the market that gets everyone worked up. Those are what they are something that was packaged after market but probably some time before the hobby evolved to the huge values that it is today.
The "new" christmas racks that have popped up in the last few years are the issue. Murphy's packs were between 53-63 and baseball only, those have a chance at being vintage packaged. The "new" ones have popped up in baseball and football and span all years up to 1975. Someone has been wrapping them up in the past few years and clearly they have one intention, to deceive and turn 12 cards worth a few bucks into something much more. These are packs that PWCC has been taking on consignment and getting serious money for them by putting his reputation behind them to unsuspecting buyers.
He also recently listed bad regular rack packs as "aftermarket". They aren't aftermarket, they are resealed fakes