<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Where did Murphy first get his ? Who packed the ones he came up with originally and what years did they cover ? What year were they first packaged ? Were they ever really retailed at Christmas and if so by what company or company and where? Is the same person(s) who packed them originally still doing so and have they expanded to more years, and if so when ? Or has a new generation of packers arisen ? Are they from one source or many ? Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
Al, the issue is not the packs that Murphy brought to the market that gets everyone worked up. Those are what they are something that was packaged after market but probably some time before the hobby evolved to the huge values that it is today.
The "new" christmas racks that have popped up in the last few years are the issue. Murphy's packs were between 53-63 and baseball only, those have a chance at being vintage packaged. The "new" ones have popped up in baseball and football and span all years up to 1975. Someone has been wrapping them up in the past few years and clearly they have one intention, to deceive and turn 12 cards worth a few bucks into something much more. These are packs that PWCC has been taking on consignment and getting serious money for them by putting his reputation behind them to unsuspecting buyers.
He also recently listed bad regular rack packs as "aftermarket". They aren't aftermarket, they are resealed fakes >>
I am not fan of the Xmas packs so I won't waste time commenting about them.
As regards bad "regular" packs, I was the one who pointed out to Brent some obviously no good racks in GAI holders in one of Brent's recent auctions. I explained what the obvious "tells" were that made it impossible for them to be factory and also recommended that he contact Steve Hart at BBCE if he felt it necessary to get my information confirmed.
I don't know whether he just took it based on my info ro whether he also called Steve. What I do know is that he changed the description of these racks to indicate they were "aftermarket" and that is how he presented them when they first showed up on eBay.
At the end of the day, Brent is a salesman and a marketeer. As long as he presents the items he offers accurately I really don't see that anyone has a gripe about that. "Aftermarket" is a term that usually refers to something that was done in some sort of reasonably quantity back in the day. Therefore I would agree that Brent should come up with a more accurate word (or phrase) to described what packs like these really are. However, given how quickly he reacted I do believe he was honestly trying to find a way to describe these packs and was not trying to find a way to walk the fine line without crossing it.
And regardless of whether (or not) he does come up with changed wording, I am shocked at what people are foolishly paying for these homemade packs.
<< <i>Since it will still be 5 days until Brent responds, I was wondering if any of the staunch supporters of him and his business would chime in on the whole X-Mas pack situation.
Dpeck100, ClockworkAngel and any others what do you think about it? >>
depends on which day you catch me on.
some days: I cant believe he would be associated w/ them.
other days: a fool and his money are separated quite easily. caveat emptor.
Anthony....don't hold back, tell us how, you really feel about them :-)
70s--I understand it is an ongoing process now, but my unanswered questions go the who, when and where on Murphy's stuff. Still no answers, just speculation. That is what I find interesting about them. If they really ever were repackaged cards sold at retail for Christmas, why has no concrete information surfaced about their origins.
<< <i>Since it will still be 5 days until Brent responds, I was wondering if any of the staunch supporters of him and his business would chime in on the whole X-Mas pack situation.
Dpeck100, ClockworkAngel and any others what do you think about it? >>
I am not an expert in the unopened arena. I have read numerous threads about these packs and it seems there is a wide range of opinions on their origin.
Here is one that was recently sold by PWCC. From what I can tell the cards looks sharp and you are getting authentic 1952 Topps cards. I think the final price is indicative of the fact that the market doesn't think you will land the major stars. With commons in some cases bringing huge money in actively collected sets It would seem possible to me to open the packs and potentially make out just fine.
Here is a pack another seller recently sold. This seller has quite a few scans and the cards look pretty strong to me. You get a total of 12 cards so the hurdle rate doesn't seem that high if you plan on breaking these open. If indeed these were hand made at some point I highly doubt that anyone at that time gave thought to most of the commons and certainly would have never dreamed that collectors would pay more for high grade commons then mid grade stars.
<< <i>My first advice would be to not post on net54. To many "smart guys" over there with agendas. >>
So true, but are those Net54 guys smart enough to know that the OP just admitted to allowing his consignors to place reserve bids on their own auctions thus inflating market value.
From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
I would expect that the highest value cards are the visible ones in these racks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
I would expect that the highest value cards are the visible ones in these racks. >>
Since you are responding. Do other auction houses refuse to sell these?
I looked at one of the listings and there were 15 bidders so there is obviously interest in the market for them.
EDIT: It seems like the condition can vary a great deal on the cards. I just looked at one that had heavily damaged corners for cards in rack packs. I am guessing this is why people think they were put together after the fact.
Unfortunately the true "history" of the Xmas racks going back to the original "find" will always be uncertain. It may be as Mark Murphy reported it, or it could actually be any one of the dozens of other stories that have circulated over the years about them.
The only thing we can say for sure is that hobby purists (myself included) who collect unopened material do not consider these to be in the same vein as packs which were factory-packaged and distributed back in the day by the Topps company, that we used to purchase as youngsters all those years ago. These cards were either removed by someone from actual Topps packs and then re-packaged in these Xmas racks OR perhaps they were never actually in real Topps packs and instead Topps sold off the leftovers in bulk at a discount to another company who marketed them in these Xmas rack packages.
I can state for a fact that I know that Topps used to buy back unsold material from retailers as recently as the late 1960s and early 1970s. I know this because my uncle had a stationery/card store on Queens Blvd in New York back then and within a few months of the end of each major sports season he would always have packs (and sometimes even a box or two) of unsold cards that he ended up giving to me. He always explained that at the $0.01 per pack that Topps was willing to take them back at, he felt that I always got well more than that enjoyment value out of having them. And perhaps the folks at Topps had started getting "green" after seeing the error in their ways when they dumped all of the 1952 cards into the ocean and found a better way to get the excess product out of their warehouses.
As for the cards themselves within the packs, I am not aware of ever hearing anybody provide evidence that the cards were not actual Topps cards. I've also never heard anyone complain that cards pulled from such packs showed signs of alteration. So if someone wants 12 mid-grade Topps cards from a certain year (6 of which can be seen and 6 which are going to be a surprise which the buyer has dreams of discovering some high-value rarity from), then I'm not sure there is any harm to the rest of the hobby in someone making these packs available....AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT MISREPRESENT THEM FOR WHAT THEY REALLY ARE.
I agree with what you say 70s. But if these things were ever sold at retail at Christmas time, it is a mystery to me that no one ( that I am aware of), has positively said, "yes, I remember buying them back in xxxx at Y". Also, Murphy and Mathews have never identified, as far as I know, their original source. That's strange as as well. Whatever they were or are now, there is a certain amount of mystery about them that I find fascinating. Also fascinating to me is the amount of emotions they stir up in collectors. The folks who sell these things seem less of a hobby problem to me than those fabricating wax packs and cellos, or altering cards.
I grew up in the 1970s and bought a lot of baseball packs during that time. Wax packs were the most commonly packs, followed by cello packs, and then rack packs, which were usually found in large dept. stores like McCrory's here in NY, or other variety stores and some toy stores. I can say with virtual certainty that I never saw a single xmas rack for sale during this time. The first time I saw an xmas rack from the mid to late 70s was about a year or so ago on ebay.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This board is full of knowledgeable collectors but outside this small bubble there are millions of collectors out there who think Christmas packs are legitimate.
I belong to a few facebook card groups and regularly see people post about their new Christmas pack pick-ups, only to find out they're not real.
<< <i>I grew up in the 1970s and bought a lot of baseball packs during that time. Wax packs were the most commonly packs, followed by cello packs, and then rack packs, which were usually found in large dept. stores like McCrory's here in NY, or other variety stores and some toy stores. I can say with virtual certainty that I never saw a single xmas rack for sale during this time. The first time I saw an xmas rack from the mid to late 70s was about a year or so ago on ebay. >>
I'd echo this statement. My brother and I bought tons of packs in Southern California as young boys throughout the 70s - racks at Newberrys and Woolworth, cellos at grocery stores and toy stores, wax at convenient stores, etc. We were always on the lookout for cards and never once saw Christmas packaging like these.
Since there is so much discussion about the Xmas racks, I read before that there is a way to tell the difference between the original Murphy find and all the ones made since. The staples are different and the candy canes are lined up different. Now I am only going on memory, so maybe somebody can elaborate on this thought.
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
1. Because they are a scam 2. yes, and idiots 3. Probably, or at least complacent.
Anyone who sells these loses a ton of credibility in my eyes. They are garbage, plain and simple, and do not belong in the hobby. >>
Its too bad that the collecting community at large can't see this posting. I'm a bit surprised at the apologists in this thread. They really ought to know better. Then again, I guess theres a reason that Creflo is getting his jet.
I think the members of CU are embedded enough in the hobby that they lose sight of what the casual or novice collectors believes and finds fascinating. Griffins response is accurate, too the point, and comes from someone with a great deal of knowledge(Sorry, not that I know him personally....just from his postings here and on Net54). While less blunt, Grote's responses are also accurate and a whole lot of collectors here have done well by heeding his advice.
Still the casual world at large is fairly easy to take advantage of..by the xmas packs, by the resealers(hai Bruingirl!) and other unscrupulous people. Still not sure why PWCC is ok about selling this stuff. Its fake. No more. No less.
I know Anthony personally and he is first rate, and a credit to the hobby. I do not know Grote personally but believe him to also be a credit to the hobby
But finding something fascinating is not an endorsement. I do though aspire to be an apologist (a really neat word) for some cool issue someday
And I would still like to know who, when an where.
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
1. Because they are a scam 2. yes, and idiots 3. Probably, or at least complacent.
Anyone who sells these loses a ton of credibility in my eyes. They are garbage, plain and simple, and do not belong in the hobby. >>
Its too bad that the collecting community at large can't see this posting. I'm a bit surprised at the apologists in this thread. They really ought to know better. Then again, I guess theres a reason that Creflo is getting his jet.
I think the members of CU are embedded enough in the hobby that they lose sight of what the casual or novice collectors believes and finds fascinating. Griffins response is accurate, too the point, and comes from someone with a great deal of knowledge(Sorry, not that I know him personally....just from his postings here and on Net54). While less blunt, Grote's responses are also accurate and a whole lot of collectors here have done well by heeding his advice.
Still the casual world at large is fairly easy to take advantage of..by the xmas packs, by the resealers(hai Bruingirl!) and other unscrupulous people. Still not sure why PWCC is ok about selling this stuff. Its fake. No more. No less. >>
I fall into the apologist category when you look at responses to this thread.
If Brent isn't good for the hobby then explain why. I obviously think he is.
Brent should not be selling Xmas racks...pure and simple. As a few others have said, these are not REAL racks. He should know better than that. Which leads to my second point......greed. I keep hearing Brent is good for the hobby. How is he good for the hobby? What has he actually done to make the sports card world better besides take your $300 card and flips it for $2K?
I remember in the late 80's and early 90's when we got all those 30 something "speculators" who "invested" $5K-$10K in 88-92 cases of Score, UD, Topps and Pinnacle. Today, people have $5K-$10K invested in ONE of their cards. Fellas, people have SERIOUS change now tied up in cards. You have some really big dogs dropping their $15K "pocket change" into cards and others ride the coat tails trying to cash in. While we have people that hate shilling, you have others that love it.........just means their cards have just went up in value.
I guess I am more of a hobby purist. I don't look at cards as a stock, my financial livelihood or a status symbol. I look at them as a pure hobby that I have enjoyed for most of my life.
How many sellers on EBAY if you have the means would you actually buy a $10,000 card from? A $20,000 card. A $50,000 card. A nearly $100,000 card. Brent has brokered cards in all of these price ranges. Providing a platform where buyers and sellers can transact with confidence is a huge thing for the hobby.
It has been proven that using him to sell your cards is cheaper then auction houses and in many cases the prices realized are higher too and you have the convenience of the EBAY model.
When was the last time someone didn't get the card they paid for or a different card that was in the scan? I have never once heard anyone complain about this. Reading over the years about the nightmares of buying a card and it not getting sent or opening a package and the item not being in there do not apply here either.
This is not a knock againt Rick Probstein but he has a different business model where he is not only a consignment seller but a dealer too. Brent simply acts as a broker and has the sellers best interest in mind.
One of the things that drives markets is liquidity. Having consignment sellers for trading cards enhances their liquidity and helps create a more active market. I have never once sold a card through anyone other then myself but there are loads of people who actively participate in this forum or are reading this thread who have and it has saved them time and effort and because of this enhanced liquidity helped drive the value of their collections higher in many cases.
PWCC uses great packing materials and ships very quickly. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a card shipped to me and thought WTH was this person thinking or OMG this card better not be destroyed when I open this package. Little things like this go a long way when dealing in things of value. When you open the mailbox their is excitement and not fear and this brings back customers and makes the process of buying a card enjoyable.
For a high volume seller to have 47,562 positive feedback in the past 12 months and only 2 neutral's and 5 negative's is amazing. We live in a world where people try and be punitive or petty and this is as close to 100% as you can get. It takes excellent work on their part to make this happen.
How the things I have stated can't be seen as someone who is good for the hobby is beyond me and as I said earlier I wish the folks at PWCC continued success. You are never going to make everyone happy no matter what it is you do but they are doing a great job making of making most people. The number of cards that are listed in each of their auctions and the quality has steadily risen over the past few years and that speaks for itself.
I have asked twice with no response. Do other auctions houses refuse to deal in these Christmas racks? Are some expecting him to not sell them yet others will is the question.
As much as I don't like the Xmas racks, I don't see a problem with PWCC offering them as long as they are described accurately.
Unfortunately, that is not easy to do with these things because no one really knows if the originals were found by Murphy or fabricated by Murphy. On top of that, I agree with bishop that no one seems to remember ever seeing them/purchasing them in a retail (or any other) setting back in the day.
As for PWCC, I too think that they have added positively to the hobby across many dimensions. Yes, prices have appreciated, but realistically I think most of that has probably been more tied to the asset markets being juiced by the government than to eBay shill bidders. There is no argument that Brent has made doing high $ transactions on eBay safer and more reliable. It also does increase liquidity in the hobby market.
Maybe I didn't explain myself better (been known to do that at times).
What I hear is PWCC is good for the hobby because you trust the cards he sells and he sets record prices. So my thoughts on this are........if he sells PSA/SGC graded cards, what are you trusting? That someone hasn't compromised the cases and switched cards? With PSA's new holders, I thought that it made if much more difficult to do this.
Second, I am not sure driving the prices of cards to the ceiling they are now is really good for the hobby. You will (and have been) eliminating the kids from the hobby which is our backbone. Heck, you will eliminate many people they way this is going.
I am curious how many "collectors" we have in this hobby vs how many investors or speculators. Kinda reminds me of 1992 all over again.
I don't have anything against Brent or a bone to pick with him. I just don't see what true value he brings to our hobby besides being a "broker" to sell your cards at the highest price recorded. There are numerous people on this board and others that bring far more to our hobby.
<< <i>Maybe I didn't explain myself better (been known to do that at times).
What I hear is PWCC is good for the hobby because you trust the cards he sells and he sets record prices. So my thoughts on this are........if he sells PSA/SGC graded cards, what are you trusting? That someone hasn't compromised the cases and switched cards? With PSA's new holders, I thought that it made if much more difficult to do this.
Second, I am not sure driving the prices of cards to the ceiling they are now is really good for the hobby. You will (and have been) eliminating the kids from the hobby which is our backbone. Heck, you will eliminate many people they way this is going.
I am curious how many "collectors" we have in this hobby vs how many investors or speculators. Kinda reminds me of 1992 all over again.
I don't have anything against Brent or a bone to pick with him. I just don't see what true value he brings to our hobby besides being a "broker" to sell your cards at the highest price recorded. There are numerous people on this board and others that bring far more to our hobby.
Mark >>
Mark, I think if you read through the thread, there are many of us stating why he is good for the hobby for reasons besides driving prices up.
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
I have asked twice with no response. Do other auctions houses refuse to deal in these Christmas racks? Are some expecting him to not sell them yet others will is the question
I recall seeing them come up for sale now and then over the years, primarily in the years immediately following Murphy's "find," but those were the 50s and early 60s xmas racks, not early and late 70s xmas racks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>How many sellers on EBAY if you have the means would you actually buy a $10,000 card from? A $20,000 card. A $50,000 card. A nearly $100,000 card. Brent has brokered cards in all of these price ranges. Providing a platform where buyers and sellers can transact with confidence is a huge thing for the hobby.
It has been proven that using him to sell your cards is cheaper then auction houses and in many cases the prices realized are higher too and you have the convenience of the EBAY model.
When was the last time someone didn't get the card they paid for or a different card that was in the scan? I have never once heard anyone complain about this. Reading over the years about the nightmares of buying a card and it not getting sent or opening a package and the item not being in there do not apply here either.
This is not a knock againt Rick Probstein but he has a different business model where he is not only a consignment seller but a dealer too. Brent simply acts as a broker and has the sellers best interest in mind.
One of the things that drives markets is liquidity. Having consignment sellers for trading cards enhances their liquidity and helps create a more active market. I have never once sold a card through anyone other then myself but there are loads of people who actively participate in this forum or are reading this thread who have and it has saved them time and effort and because of this enhanced liquidity helped drive the value of their collections higher in many cases.
PWCC uses great packing materials and ships very quickly. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a card shipped to me and thought WTH was this person thinking or OMG this card better not be destroyed when I open this package. Little things like this go a long way when dealing in things of value. When you open the mailbox their is excitement and not fear and this brings back customers and makes the process of buying a card enjoyable.
For a high volume seller to have 47,562 positive feedback in the past 12 months and only 2 neutral's and 5 negative's is amazing. We live in a world where people try and be punitive or petty and this is as close to 100% as you can get. It takes excellent work on their part to make this happen.
How the things I have stated can't be seen as someone who is good for the hobby is beyond me and as I said earlier I wish the folks at PWCC continued success. You are never going to make everyone happy no matter what it is you do but they are doing a great job making of making most people. The number of cards that are listed in each of their auctions and the quality has steadily risen over the past few years and that speaks for itself.
I have asked twice with no response. Do other auctions houses refuse to deal in these Christmas racks? Are some expecting him to not sell them yet others will is the question. >>
I respectfully disagree with a couple of things here. I say "respectfully" because I admire your passion for collecting Dpeck and PWCC's success as a consignor on eBay. Two top-notch people in the hobby, IMO.
With that said, when PWCC did not state in their listing of a Babe Ruth rookie that bids exceeding a certain amount would need to be pre-approved by eBay, at least two snipes were blocked. This was a mismanagement of a big dollar item, no question about it.
PWCC rarely answers emails. I've asked about the Christmas racks. No response. I asked about a Gretzky rookie where the image looked a bit off, no response.
I ended up buying the Gretzky rookie anyways. It arrived in a simple bubble mailer. $400+ card should be in a box IMO. If this card belonged to PWCC, they can send it anyway they want, but it doesn't belong to them and protecting the merchandise should be top priority, IMO.
As usual, this board focuses on one thing (Xmas racks this time) and makes a mountain out of it. And it's mostly the usual suspects doing the complaining, another big shocker.
Brent is a great seller, I've won several items over the past couple years, anything from $10 to $10,000, and items always arrive quickly and exactly as described. He's always been responsive when I've asked questions and has always taken care of any issues or given clarifications when needed. It's not always instantaneous, but he is absolutely responsive when you approach it correctly. Those last 3 words are the key - read them again if you're confused.
Considering the number of items that go through there, I think he does a fantastic job. And, for all the griping about the schilling, he's using a PUBLIC auction site to sell. Despite eBay's decision to remove bidder IDs, it's still MUCH EASIER to ferret out odd bidding activity on eBay than it is on any of the other auction sites I've participated on. On those, you can't even see who's bid against you.
As far as bidding goes, PWCC is absolutely my favorite. And I've won things from Iconic, Heritage and several others - I strongly prefer PWCC. I don't know about the consigning side of it, but as a bidder I've been extremely happy and especially because there's no buyer premium and overall shipping is reasonable especially when you win more than one item.
1) I do think eBay could do more in regard to non-paying bidders. Seems like that's on his radar pretty squarely already, anything would probably be an improvement. Bidding is a privilege, not a right. Paying is an obligation, not an option. 2) I for one think that there SHOULD be some level of pre-qualification for certain dollar bid levels. I absolutely believe there are people out there bidding on auctions they can't pay for, it's happened to me before and I'm sure countless others. This relates to item 1, but is a bit different and is an additional level of assurance for higher value items. Should be some way to incorporate that. 3) As far as "schilling" or "reserve bids", this is a tricky one. I for one would want a certain level of assurance of sales price on certain items. PWCC doesn't really run reserve price auctions, so either they need to start doing it or people need to start living with the outcomes. He's eliminated this practice as best he can, so not sure what else anyone would want him to do. Maybe there's some way to block specific bidder IDs on certain auctions, but that's not how the system is currently set up and we're talking about a lot of "code" to try and put something like that in place, and a ton of admin as well.
I'm actually not that opposed to the "reserve bidding" method, if a seller is willing to pony up the fee to keep their item then so be it. As long as the "reserve bidding" is disclosed in the auction, I'd have no problem with it and that's how many of the other auction houses still do things in other markets.
Maybe a better alternative would be just start the auction at the reserve price. That's a business decision, though, and maybe PWCC doesn't want that admin.
4) If items are deemed not authentic, then they shouldn't be sold on eBay. There's plenty of policing that goes on with Rolex, Tiffany, many other items I can think of. It's not always accurate, but there is definitely an effort. Maybe this is where the Xmas racks belong - but I don't think that's Brent's job to decide. Ultimately, if there are real cards in the packs, then I think the market can decide the price. If there are people willing to pay for that packaging with an expectation of higher values, I see that as more of a lack of education around value than anything - and that's not PWCC's or eBay's job.
5) I am particularly concerned about the separation of Paypal. I haven't yet thought about all the things that could go wrong here, but I'm sure there are plenty. One I can think of is who do you go to as buyer or seller if something goes wrong - I can see lots of finger pointing scenarios develop here. The last thing I'd want to see happen is returning to the money order type of world. There is TONS more risk in that environment. I think there needs to be a lot of more information and issue identification and Q&A out there on this change - so far I'd suggest that the communication of it is pretty limited. Maybe it's out there in the fine print of some of the links that have been sent, but something much more public is in order in my view.
Hunt and hakes are the only auction houses I know of that will touch the Christmas racks. Take that however you would like , to me it speaks great volumes of what they actual are and who is willing to be associated with them. And I have yet to see the 70's ones listed by any other auction house.
This is not saying I don't trust Brent, this is saying if you are going to promote that you are doing something good for the hobby , stay away from the crap.
and if you are going to promote the good, do not list FAKE racks that look like they were produced by topps and say they are AFTERMARKET
Aside from the current drama of Xmas packs, which I pretty much agree with the discussion of not selling them to be the best idea. Some of the other things the seller mentions regarding ebay has pretty solid reasoning. I would also add/include the following on the ebay meeting he is having.
1) Non paying bidders should get an automatic strike AND negative against them. To me, the buyers only job in any transaction is to pay on time. I dont believe they have to "work out" an issue if they arent happy, they dont have to communicate a problem, they dont even have to be satisfied if they dont want to...they DO have to pay on time and the number of NPB on ebay will continue to rise as long as there isnt some sort of policy to end it.
2) People who have xxxx number of NPB should have to have a CC on file to automatically pay for an item once it ends or when a BIN is accepted for a specified amount of time.
3) People who return items at a high percentage should have their accounts monitored in some way. Seems to me, some buyers have figured out a way to manipulate the system by being "unhappy" with their purchases, threatening refunds, etc.
4) When a seller gets negged, they should have the opportunity to explain the situation on their FB page with a bit more detailed answer other than the 30 or so letters they are allowed to.
<< <i>Let's see... seller admits to previously knowingly allowing shill bids in violation of EBay rules. Seller STILL knowingly sells fake rack packs - multiple times.
Tell me again why people support this seller? >>
At least some people who support PWCC, self admittedly, consign to him. And if these same people have made more money from Brent, because of how PWCC runs their business, than these people would have made anywhere else ... well it's clear why they would have a reason to turn a blind eye to many of the issues that have existed and that current exist with PWCC.
From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday.
Not sure what's more perplexing -- the provenance of these godforsaken Christmas racks or Curt Schilling, without fail, being injected into the convo. I've officially given up on the former and I'm going to focus intently on the latter.
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
You're fitting right in, the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. I think in a lot of people's view, including mine, it's a very minor issue and barely worth discussing anymore. And it's not really why he posted, but thankfully several people have taken the opportunity to complain about them - again.
Hopefully Brent replies on Wednesday before the 4:20 deadline expires.
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. >>
I don't have a dog in the fight, but this is incorrect. Several people have raised concerns about the accuracy of scans and even more than that have expressed concern about shilling. Just because these aren't issues TO YOU doesn't mean they're not issues on which a portion of hobbyists are seeking clarification. I have bought from PWCC with no complaints and would probably do so again. But to say only one issue has been raised in this thread is blatantly false, even if those complaints are not mine.
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
You're fitting right in, the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. I think in a lot of people's view, including mine, it's a very minor issue and barely worth discussing anymore. And it's not really why he posted, but thankfully several people have taken the opportunity to complain about them - again.
Hopefully Brent replies on Wednesday before the 4:20 deadline expires. >>
Thanks but I think the Xmas racks, in a lot of people's view, including mine, are a very MAJOR issue and at the center of a very important matter of discussion for the hobby.
What is OK to sell and what isn't?
Is it always up to the buyer to be educated enough to know they're buying something homemade and most probably worthless, or should the seller be responsible enough to make sure that they don't sell items that will easily mislead buyers?
grote15 pointed out that even late 1970s Xmas racks are being sold. I see one recently sold for almost $80. Why would someone pay so much for a homemade pack unless they were somehow under the impression that it was similar to the factory sealed variety that looks like it usually goes for $100? Would anyone posting in this thread, especially those who don't think Xmas racks are a big issue, actually buy one thinking it was worth it and that they would be getting, as the description reads "conservatively mid-to-high grade" cards. That kind of description sounds to me like these packs should contain cards worth sending in for grading, when, IMO it sounds like the opposite is true.
Brent has sold over 100 Xmas racks in the past 3 months, and to me shows no signs of slowing down. I think it's a big issue.
EDIT: DanBessette, I agree with you that there are other issues also. I just think that the Xmas racks is a huge one that is easily addressed and solved - just don't sell them! ... or at least describe them properly.
Looks like I picked a good time to sign on. Inaugural post.
First, love this forum. Learned a lot from reading these threads and have changed my investing strategies because of it. So Kudos to everyone who shares their opinions and coherent thoughts.
X-mas packs by PWCC. IMO, PWCC should stay out of the X-mas pack business. But I've read the disclaimer, seems pretty clear; buyer beware. I find it hard to believe that someone buying vintage unopened baseball card packs is not intelligent enough to know what these packs mean and what the probability is of landing a low pop/star (0%).
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
The problem with the Xmas racks (the original ones, that is) is that nobody can say for certain what they really are or are not. The only things that can be said for certain is that they were not packaged by the Topps company as part of their regular yearly production and distribution.
To me, I wouldn't waste my time with an Xmas rack but I see nothing wrong with offering them for sale as long as they are accurately described.
On the other hand, I have very serious concerns over the following rack:
which no one, as yet, had been able to make a definitive statement about being authentic (BTW, both myself and cpamike examined this rack in person and had some serious reservations about it due to several yellow flags we identified).
" I find it hard to believe that someone buying vintage unopened baseball card packs is not intelligent enough to know what these packs mean and what the probability is of landing a low pop/star (0%). "
I agree completely. However the Xmas racks are designed to catch the unsuspecting such as mom looking to surprise Junior for his birthday or the wifey thinking she is getting something good for the hubby. I have no problem with them being sold they just need to be described for what they are. Too many descriptions dance around the truth.
<< <i>Looks like I picked a good time to sign on. Inaugural post.
First, love this forum. Learned a lot from reading these threads and have changed my investing strategies because of it. So Kudos to everyone who shares their opinions and coherent thoughts.
X-mas packs by PWCC. IMO, PWCC should stay out of the X-mas pack business. But I've read the disclaimer, seems pretty clear; buyer beware. I find it hard to believe that someone buying vintage unopened baseball card packs is not intelligent enough to know what these packs mean and what the probability is of landing a low pop/star (0%). >>
first of all, welcome and solid first post! 2nd of all, ^^ sums it all up. it's not like his description even hints at the fact that these could even possibly be legit. ray charles could even tell by his description used. I for one, don't think he should be touching them w a 10 foot pole, but then again there seems to be a market for them regardless of the authenticity and description. you got the guys out there that simply open them up looking for gradeable cards, you got guys that just want to display a 52 rack pack in their man cave and so on and so forth. it's obvious that there is a market for them and it's not my/your's/his place to figure out why these things sell like they do. as long as the description doesn't even hint that they are legit, then I don't see a problem with it. it's not like he's saying "possible 52 mantle inside".
<< <i>The problem with the Xmas racks (the original ones, that is) is that nobody can say for certain what they really are or are not. The only things that can be said for certain is that they were not packaged by the Topps company as part of their regular yearly production and distribution.
To me, I wouldn't waste my time with an Xmas rack but I see nothing wrong with offering them for sale as long as they are accurately described.
On the other hand, I have very serious concerns over the following rack:
That rack, being an obvious counterfeit, should not have been accepted for consignment by PWCC. As a leader in this industry, they should have refused it, rather than help perpetuate its existence and future sales.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Where did Murphy first get his ? Who packed the ones he came up with originally and what years did they cover ? What year were they first packaged ? Were they ever really retailed at Christmas and if so by what company or company and where? Is the same person(s) who packed them originally still doing so and have they expanded to more years, and if so when ? Or has a new generation of packers arisen ? Are they from one source or many ? Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
Al, the issue is not the packs that Murphy brought to the market that gets everyone worked up. Those are what they are something that was packaged after market but probably some time before the hobby evolved to the huge values that it is today.
The "new" christmas racks that have popped up in the last few years are the issue. Murphy's packs were between 53-63 and baseball only, those have a chance at being vintage packaged. The "new" ones have popped up in baseball and football and span all years up to 1975. Someone has been wrapping them up in the past few years and clearly they have one intention, to deceive and turn 12 cards worth a few bucks into something much more. These are packs that PWCC has been taking on consignment and getting serious money for them by putting his reputation behind them to unsuspecting buyers.
He also recently listed bad regular rack packs as "aftermarket". They aren't aftermarket, they are resealed fakes >>
I am not fan of the Xmas packs so I won't waste time commenting about them.
As regards bad "regular" packs, I was the one who pointed out to Brent some obviously no good racks in GAI holders in one
of Brent's recent auctions. I explained what the obvious "tells" were that made it impossible for them to be factory and
also recommended that he contact Steve Hart at BBCE if he felt it necessary to get my information confirmed.
I don't know whether he just took it based on my info ro whether he also called Steve. What I do know is that he changed
the description of these racks to indicate they were "aftermarket" and that is how he presented them when they first showed
up on eBay.
At the end of the day, Brent is a salesman and a marketeer. As long as he presents the items he offers accurately I really
don't see that anyone has a gripe about that. "Aftermarket" is a term that usually refers to something that was done in
some sort of reasonably quantity back in the day. Therefore I would agree that Brent should come up with a more accurate
word (or phrase) to described what packs like these really are. However, given how quickly he reacted I do believe he was
honestly trying to find a way to describe these packs and was not trying to find a way to walk the fine line without crossing it.
And regardless of whether (or not) he does come up with changed wording, I am shocked at what people are foolishly paying for
these homemade packs.
Dave
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Old Xmas racks or new, they weren't issued by Topps. >>
Instagram: mattyc_collection
<< <i>Since it will still be 5 days until Brent responds, I was wondering if any of the staunch supporters of him and his business would chime in on the whole X-Mas pack situation.
Dpeck100, ClockworkAngel and any others what do you think about it? >>
depends on which day you catch me on.
some days: I cant believe he would be associated w/ them.
other days: a fool and his money are separated quite easily. caveat emptor.
70s--I understand it is an ongoing process now, but my unanswered questions go the who, when and where on Murphy's stuff. Still no answers, just speculation. That is what I find interesting about them. If they really ever were repackaged cards sold at retail for Christmas, why has no concrete information surfaced about their origins.
The Murphy camp was no help
Text
Text
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>Since it will still be 5 days until Brent responds, I was wondering if any of the staunch supporters of him and his business would chime in on the whole X-Mas pack situation.
Dpeck100, ClockworkAngel and any others what do you think about it? >>
I am not an expert in the unopened arena. I have read numerous threads about these packs and it seems there is a wide range of opinions on their origin.
Christmas rack
Here is one that was recently sold by PWCC. From what I can tell the cards looks sharp and you are getting authentic 1952 Topps cards. I think the final price is indicative of the fact that the market doesn't think you will land the major stars. With commons in some cases bringing huge money in actively collected sets It would seem possible to me to open the packs and potentially make out just fine.
Here is a pack another seller recently sold. This seller has quite a few scans and the cards look pretty strong to me. You get a total of 12 cards so the hurdle rate doesn't seem that high if you plan on breaking these open. If indeed these were hand made at some point I highly doubt that anyone at that time gave thought to most of the commons and certainly would have never dreamed that collectors would pay more for high grade commons then mid grade stars.
CR #2
Are there auction houses that refuse to deal in these products? Are you asking Brent to be inline with others or go against the herd?
<< <i>My first advice would be to not post on net54. To many "smart guys" over there with agendas. >>
So true, but are those Net54 guys smart enough to know that the OP just admitted to allowing his consignors to place reserve bids on their own auctions thus inflating market value.
Think about it....
Now go home and get your shine box!
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
PSA 6
So it is impossible to pull a card like this?
Or this?
PSA 4 Variation
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
PSA 6
So it is impossible to pull a card like this?
Or this?
PSA 4 Variation >>
I would expect that the highest value cards are the visible ones in these racks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I've seen, for all years now as recently as 1979, the value of the 12 EX-MT cards (on average for the 50s-60s cards; I'm assuming the cards in the late 70s racks would be a bit better) is far less than the value of those same cards packaged up in an xmas rack. >>
PSA 6
So it is impossible to pull a card like this?
Or this?
PSA 4 Variation >>
I would expect that the highest value cards are the visible ones in these racks. >>
Since you are responding. Do other auction houses refuse to sell these?
I looked at one of the listings and there were 15 bidders so there is obviously interest in the market for them.
EDIT: It seems like the condition can vary a great deal on the cards. I just looked at one that had heavily damaged corners for cards in rack packs. I am guessing this is why people think they were put together after the fact.
may be as Mark Murphy reported it, or it could actually be any one of the dozens of other stories that have circulated
over the years about them.
The only thing we can say for sure is that hobby purists (myself included) who collect unopened material do not consider
these to be in the same vein as packs which were factory-packaged and distributed back in the day by the Topps company,
that we used to purchase as youngsters all those years ago. These cards were either removed by someone from actual Topps
packs and then re-packaged in these Xmas racks OR perhaps they were never actually in real Topps packs and instead Topps sold
off the leftovers in bulk at a discount to another company who marketed them in these Xmas rack packages.
I can state for a fact that I know that Topps used to buy back unsold material from retailers as recently as the late 1960s and
early 1970s. I know this because my uncle had a stationery/card store on Queens Blvd in New York back then and within a
few months of the end of each major sports season he would always have packs (and sometimes even a box or two) of unsold
cards that he ended up giving to me. He always explained that at the $0.01 per pack that Topps was willing to take them back
at, he felt that I always got well more than that enjoyment value out of having them. And perhaps the folks at Topps had started
getting "green" after seeing the error in their ways when they dumped all of the 1952 cards into the ocean and found a better
way to get the excess product out of their warehouses.
As for the cards themselves within the packs, I am not aware of ever hearing anybody provide evidence that the cards
were not actual Topps cards. I've also never heard anyone complain that cards pulled from such packs showed signs of
alteration. So if someone wants 12 mid-grade Topps cards from a certain year (6 of which can be seen and 6 which are going
to be a surprise which the buyer has dreams of discovering some high-value rarity from), then I'm not sure there is any harm
to the rest of the hobby in someone making these packs available....AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT MISREPRESENT THEM FOR WHAT
THEY REALLY ARE.
Dave
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I belong to a few facebook card groups and regularly see people post about their new Christmas pack pick-ups, only to find out they're not real.
They're made to deceive.
<< <i>I grew up in the 1970s and bought a lot of baseball packs during that time. Wax packs were the most commonly packs, followed by cello packs, and then rack packs, which were usually found in large dept. stores like McCrory's here in NY, or other variety stores and some toy stores. I can say with virtual certainty that I never saw a single xmas rack for sale during this time. The first time I saw an xmas rack from the mid to late 70s was about a year or so ago on ebay. >>
I'd echo this statement. My brother and I bought tons of packs in Southern California as young boys throughout the 70s - racks at Newberrys and Woolworth, cellos at grocery stores and toy stores, wax at convenient stores, etc. We were always on the lookout for cards and never once saw Christmas packaging like these.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
1. Because they are a scam
2. yes, and idiots
3. Probably, or at least complacent.
Anyone who sells these loses a ton of credibility in my eyes. They are garbage, plain and simple, and do not belong in the hobby. >>
Its too bad that the collecting community at large can't see this posting. I'm a bit surprised at the apologists in this thread. They really ought to know better. Then again, I guess theres a reason that Creflo is getting his jet.
I think the members of CU are embedded enough in the hobby that they lose sight of what the casual or novice collectors believes and finds fascinating. Griffins response is accurate, too the point, and comes from someone with a great deal of knowledge(Sorry, not that I know him personally....just from his postings here and on Net54). While less blunt, Grote's responses are also accurate and a whole lot of collectors here have done well by heeding his advice.
Still the casual world at large is fairly easy to take advantage of..by the xmas packs, by the resealers(hai Bruingirl!) and other unscrupulous people. Still not sure why PWCC is ok about selling this stuff. Its fake. No more. No less.
But finding something fascinating is not an endorsement. I do though aspire to be an apologist (a really neat word) for some cool issue
someday
And I would still like to know who, when an where.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the XMas packs. They sort of fascinate me. Why has not more concrete info about their origin or ongoing production come to light ? Some people must like them since they seem to sell. Are all the people who buy them goobers ? Since Murphy has never been willing or able to be specific about how he came by his original stash, is he the original and ongoing source ?
I think it is a cool hobby mystery, no matter what people say about them. >>
1. Because they are a scam
2. yes, and idiots
3. Probably, or at least complacent.
Anyone who sells these loses a ton of credibility in my eyes. They are garbage, plain and simple, and do not belong in the hobby. >>
Its too bad that the collecting community at large can't see this posting. I'm a bit surprised at the apologists in this thread. They really ought to know better. Then again, I guess theres a reason that Creflo is getting his jet.
I think the members of CU are embedded enough in the hobby that they lose sight of what the casual or novice collectors believes and finds fascinating. Griffins response is accurate, too the point, and comes from someone with a great deal of knowledge(Sorry, not that I know him personally....just from his postings here and on Net54). While less blunt, Grote's responses are also accurate and a whole lot of collectors here have done well by heeding his advice.
Still the casual world at large is fairly easy to take advantage of..by the xmas packs, by the resealers(hai Bruingirl!) and other unscrupulous people. Still not sure why PWCC is ok about selling this stuff. Its fake. No more. No less. >>
I fall into the apologist category when you look at responses to this thread.
If Brent isn't good for the hobby then explain why. I obviously think he is.
I remember in the late 80's and early 90's when we got all those 30 something "speculators" who "invested" $5K-$10K in 88-92 cases of Score, UD, Topps and Pinnacle. Today, people have $5K-$10K invested in ONE of their cards. Fellas, people have SERIOUS change now tied up in cards. You have some really big dogs dropping their $15K "pocket change" into cards and others ride the coat tails trying to cash in. While we have people that hate shilling, you have others that love it.........just means their cards have just went up in value.
I guess I am more of a hobby purist. I don't look at cards as a stock, my financial livelihood or a status symbol. I look at them as a pure hobby that I have enjoyed for most of my life.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
It has been proven that using him to sell your cards is cheaper then auction houses and in many cases the prices realized are higher too and you have the convenience of the EBAY model.
When was the last time someone didn't get the card they paid for or a different card that was in the scan? I have never once heard anyone complain about this. Reading over the years about the nightmares of buying a card and it not getting sent or opening a package and the item not being in there do not apply here either.
This is not a knock againt Rick Probstein but he has a different business model where he is not only a consignment seller but a dealer too. Brent simply acts as a broker and has the sellers best interest in mind.
One of the things that drives markets is liquidity. Having consignment sellers for trading cards enhances their liquidity and helps create a more active market. I have never once sold a card through anyone other then myself but there are loads of people who actively participate in this forum or are reading this thread who have and it has saved them time and effort and because of this enhanced liquidity helped drive the value of their collections higher in many cases.
PWCC uses great packing materials and ships very quickly. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a card shipped to me and thought WTH was this person thinking or OMG this card better not be destroyed when I open this package. Little things like this go a long way when dealing in things of value. When you open the mailbox their is excitement and not fear and this brings back customers and makes the process of buying a card enjoyable.
For a high volume seller to have 47,562 positive feedback in the past 12 months and only 2 neutral's and 5 negative's is amazing. We live in a world where people try and be punitive or petty and this is as close to 100% as you can get. It takes excellent work on their part to make this happen.
How the things I have stated can't be seen as someone who is good for the hobby is beyond me and as I said earlier I wish the folks at PWCC continued success. You are never going to make everyone happy no matter what it is you do but they are doing a great job making of making most people. The number of cards that are listed in each of their auctions and the quality has steadily risen over the past few years and that speaks for itself.
I have asked twice with no response. Do other auctions houses refuse to deal in these Christmas racks? Are some expecting him to not sell them yet others will is the question.
described accurately.
Unfortunately, that is not easy to do with these things because no one really knows if the originals were found
by Murphy or fabricated by Murphy. On top of that, I agree with bishop that no one seems to remember ever
seeing them/purchasing them in a retail (or any other) setting back in the day.
As for PWCC, I too think that they have added positively to the hobby across many dimensions. Yes, prices
have appreciated, but realistically I think most of that has probably been more tied to the asset markets being
juiced by the government than to eBay shill bidders. There is no argument that Brent has made doing high $
transactions on eBay safer and more reliable. It also does increase liquidity in the hobby market.
Dave
What I hear is PWCC is good for the hobby because you trust the cards he sells and he sets record prices. So my thoughts on this are........if he sells PSA/SGC graded cards, what are you trusting? That someone hasn't compromised the cases and switched cards? With PSA's new holders, I thought that it made if much more difficult to do this.
Second, I am not sure driving the prices of cards to the ceiling they are now is really good for the hobby. You will (and have been) eliminating the kids from the hobby which is our backbone. Heck, you will eliminate many people they way this is going.
I am curious how many "collectors" we have in this hobby vs how many investors or speculators. Kinda reminds me of 1992 all over again.
I don't have anything against Brent or a bone to pick with him. I just don't see what true value he brings to our hobby besides being a "broker" to sell your cards at the highest price recorded. There are numerous people on this board and others that bring far more to our hobby.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>Maybe I didn't explain myself better (been known to do that at times).
What I hear is PWCC is good for the hobby because you trust the cards he sells and he sets record prices. So my thoughts on this are........if he sells PSA/SGC graded cards, what are you trusting? That someone hasn't compromised the cases and switched cards? With PSA's new holders, I thought that it made if much more difficult to do this.
Second, I am not sure driving the prices of cards to the ceiling they are now is really good for the hobby. You will (and have been) eliminating the kids from the hobby which is our backbone. Heck, you will eliminate many people they way this is going.
I am curious how many "collectors" we have in this hobby vs how many investors or speculators. Kinda reminds me of 1992 all over again.
I don't have anything against Brent or a bone to pick with him. I just don't see what true value he brings to our hobby besides being a "broker" to sell your cards at the highest price recorded. There are numerous people on this board and others that bring far more to our hobby.
Mark >>
Mark, I think if you read through the thread, there are many of us stating why he is good for the hobby for reasons besides driving prices up.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
I recall seeing them come up for sale now and then over the years, primarily in the years immediately following Murphy's "find," but those were the 50s and early 60s xmas racks, not early and late 70s xmas racks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>How many sellers on EBAY if you have the means would you actually buy a $10,000 card from? A $20,000 card. A $50,000 card. A nearly $100,000 card. Brent has brokered cards in all of these price ranges. Providing a platform where buyers and sellers can transact with confidence is a huge thing for the hobby.
It has been proven that using him to sell your cards is cheaper then auction houses and in many cases the prices realized are higher too and you have the convenience of the EBAY model.
When was the last time someone didn't get the card they paid for or a different card that was in the scan? I have never once heard anyone complain about this. Reading over the years about the nightmares of buying a card and it not getting sent or opening a package and the item not being in there do not apply here either.
This is not a knock againt Rick Probstein but he has a different business model where he is not only a consignment seller but a dealer too. Brent simply acts as a broker and has the sellers best interest in mind.
One of the things that drives markets is liquidity. Having consignment sellers for trading cards enhances their liquidity and helps create a more active market. I have never once sold a card through anyone other then myself but there are loads of people who actively participate in this forum or are reading this thread who have and it has saved them time and effort and because of this enhanced liquidity helped drive the value of their collections higher in many cases.
PWCC uses great packing materials and ships very quickly. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a card shipped to me and thought WTH was this person thinking or OMG this card better not be destroyed when I open this package. Little things like this go a long way when dealing in things of value. When you open the mailbox their is excitement and not fear and this brings back customers and makes the process of buying a card enjoyable.
For a high volume seller to have 47,562 positive feedback in the past 12 months and only 2 neutral's and 5 negative's is amazing. We live in a world where people try and be punitive or petty and this is as close to 100% as you can get. It takes excellent work on their part to make this happen.
How the things I have stated can't be seen as someone who is good for the hobby is beyond me and as I said earlier I wish the folks at PWCC continued success. You are never going to make everyone happy no matter what it is you do but they are doing a great job making of making most people. The number of cards that are listed in each of their auctions and the quality has steadily risen over the past few years and that speaks for itself.
I have asked twice with no response. Do other auctions houses refuse to deal in these Christmas racks? Are some expecting him to not sell them yet others will is the question. >>
I respectfully disagree with a couple of things here. I say "respectfully" because I admire your passion for collecting Dpeck and PWCC's success as a consignor on eBay. Two top-notch people in the hobby, IMO.
With that said, when PWCC did not state in their listing of a Babe Ruth rookie that bids exceeding a certain amount would need to be pre-approved by eBay, at least two snipes were blocked. This was a mismanagement of a big dollar item, no question about it.
PWCC rarely answers emails. I've asked about the Christmas racks. No response. I asked about a Gretzky rookie where the image looked a bit off, no response.
I ended up buying the Gretzky rookie anyways. It arrived in a simple bubble mailer. $400+ card should be in a box IMO. If this card belonged to PWCC, they can send it anyway they want, but it doesn't belong to them and protecting the merchandise should be top priority, IMO.
Text
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>As much as I don't like the Xmas racks, I don't see a problem with PWCC offering them as long as they are
described accurately >>
^ This ^
Brent is a great seller, I've won several items over the past couple years, anything from $10 to $10,000, and items always arrive quickly and exactly as described. He's always been responsive when I've asked questions and has always taken care of any issues or given clarifications when needed. It's not always instantaneous, but he is absolutely responsive when you approach it correctly. Those last 3 words are the key - read them again if you're confused.
Considering the number of items that go through there, I think he does a fantastic job. And, for all the griping about the schilling, he's using a PUBLIC auction site to sell. Despite eBay's decision to remove bidder IDs, it's still MUCH EASIER to ferret out odd bidding activity on eBay than it is on any of the other auction sites I've participated on. On those, you can't even see who's bid against you.
As far as bidding goes, PWCC is absolutely my favorite. And I've won things from Iconic, Heritage and several others - I strongly prefer PWCC. I don't know about the consigning side of it, but as a bidder I've been extremely happy and especially because there's no buyer premium and overall shipping is reasonable especially when you win more than one item.
1) I do think eBay could do more in regard to non-paying bidders. Seems like that's on his radar pretty squarely already, anything would probably be an improvement. Bidding is a privilege, not a right. Paying is an obligation, not an option.
2) I for one think that there SHOULD be some level of pre-qualification for certain dollar bid levels. I absolutely believe there are people out there bidding on auctions they can't pay for, it's happened to me before and I'm sure countless others. This relates to item 1, but is a bit different and is an additional level of assurance for higher value items. Should be some way to incorporate that.
3) As far as "schilling" or "reserve bids", this is a tricky one. I for one would want a certain level of assurance of sales price on certain items. PWCC doesn't really run reserve price auctions, so either they need to start doing it or people need to start living with the outcomes. He's eliminated this practice as best he can, so not sure what else anyone would want him to do. Maybe there's some way to block specific bidder IDs on certain auctions, but that's not how the system is currently set up and we're talking about a lot of "code" to try and put something like that in place, and a ton of admin as well.
I'm actually not that opposed to the "reserve bidding" method, if a seller is willing to pony up the fee to keep their item then so be it. As long as the "reserve bidding" is disclosed in the auction, I'd have no problem with it and that's how many of the other auction houses still do things in other markets.
Maybe a better alternative would be just start the auction at the reserve price. That's a business decision, though, and maybe PWCC doesn't want that admin.
4) If items are deemed not authentic, then they shouldn't be sold on eBay. There's plenty of policing that goes on with Rolex, Tiffany, many other items I can think of. It's not always accurate, but there is definitely an effort. Maybe this is where the Xmas racks belong - but I don't think that's Brent's job to decide. Ultimately, if there are real cards in the packs, then I think the market can decide the price. If there are people willing to pay for that packaging with an expectation of higher values, I see that as more of a lack of education around value than anything - and that's not PWCC's or eBay's job.
5) I am particularly concerned about the separation of Paypal. I haven't yet thought about all the things that could go wrong here, but I'm sure there are plenty. One I can think of is who do you go to as buyer or seller if something goes wrong - I can see lots of finger pointing scenarios develop here. The last thing I'd want to see happen is returning to the money order type of world. There is TONS more risk in that environment. I think there needs to be a lot of more information and issue identification and Q&A out there on this change - so far I'd suggest that the communication of it is pretty limited. Maybe it's out there in the fine print of some of the links that have been sent, but something much more public is in order in my view.
<< <i>
<< <i>As much as I don't like the Xmas racks, I don't see a problem with PWCC offering them as long as they are
described accurately >>
^ This ^ >>
The problem is they are not. And this sets a bad precedent for others to follow.
The fact that PWCC is so successful they should hold themselves to a higher standard, IMO.
I think Mr Bounce has it all figured out though
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
This is not saying I don't trust Brent, this is saying if you are going to promote that you are doing something good for the hobby , stay away from the crap.
and if you are going to promote the good, do not list FAKE racks that look like they were produced by topps and say they are AFTERMARKET
JOKE aftermarket 71 Impressive Rack
no other auction house would have continued this auction , it would have been pulled. plain and simple!
<< <i>Anthony--I can't tell if it is you or I who are the usual suspects. I always thought it was Bob.
I think Mr Bounce has it all figured out though >>
it's keyser soze.
<< <i>
and if you are going to promote the good, do not list FAKE racks that look like they were produced by topps and say they are AFTERMARKET
JOKE aftermarket 71 Impressive Rack
no other auction house would have continued this auction , it would have been pulled. plain and simple! >>
I guess that buyer wised up....
re-list
Tell me again why people support this seller?
1) Non paying bidders should get an automatic strike AND negative against them. To me, the buyers only job in any transaction is to pay on time. I dont believe they have to "work out" an issue if they arent happy, they dont have to communicate a problem, they dont even have to be satisfied if they dont want to...they DO have to pay on time and the number of NPB on ebay will continue to rise as long as there isnt some sort of policy to end it.
2) People who have xxxx number of NPB should have to have a CC on file to automatically pay for an item once it ends or when a BIN is accepted for a specified amount of time.
3) People who return items at a high percentage should have their accounts monitored in some way. Seems to me, some buyers have figured out a way to manipulate the system by being "unhappy" with their purchases, threatening refunds, etc.
4) When a seller gets negged, they should have the opportunity to explain the situation on their FB page with a bit more detailed answer other than the 30 or so letters they are allowed to.
<< <i>Let's see... seller admits to previously knowingly allowing shill bids in violation of EBay rules. Seller STILL knowingly sells fake rack packs - multiple times.
Tell me again why people support this seller? >>
At least some people who support PWCC, self admittedly, consign to him. And if these same people have made more money from Brent, because of how PWCC runs their business, than these people would have made anywhere else ... well it's clear why they would have a reason to turn a blind eye to many of the issues that have existed and that current exist with PWCC.
From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
You're fitting right in, the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. I think in a lot of people's view, including mine, it's a very minor issue and barely worth discussing anymore. And it's not really why he posted, but thankfully several people have taken the opportunity to complain about them - again.
Hopefully Brent replies on Wednesday before the 4:20 deadline expires.
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. >>
I don't have a dog in the fight, but this is incorrect. Several people have raised concerns about the accuracy of scans and even more than that have expressed concern about shilling. Just because these aren't issues TO YOU doesn't mean they're not issues on which a portion of hobbyists are seeking clarification. I have bought from PWCC with no complaints and would probably do so again. But to say only one issue has been raised in this thread is blatantly false, even if those complaints are not mine.
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I can see Brent does run an extremely strong business, with many positives, so I hope he strongly addresses the issues that have been raised in this thread.
According to his OP Brent should be following up in two days on Wednesday. >>
You're fitting right in, the only real issue is around the Xmas racks. I think in a lot of people's view, including mine, it's a very minor issue and barely worth discussing anymore. And it's not really why he posted, but thankfully several people have taken the opportunity to complain about them - again.
Hopefully Brent replies on Wednesday before the 4:20 deadline expires. >>
Thanks but I think the Xmas racks, in a lot of people's view, including mine, are a very MAJOR issue and at the center of a very important matter of discussion for the hobby.
What is OK to sell and what isn't?
Is it always up to the buyer to be educated enough to know they're buying something homemade and most probably worthless, or should the seller be responsible enough to make sure that they don't sell items that will easily mislead buyers?
grote15 pointed out that even late 1970s Xmas racks are being sold. I see one recently sold for almost $80. Why would someone pay so much for a homemade pack unless they were somehow under the impression that it was similar to the factory sealed variety that looks like it usually goes for $100? Would anyone posting in this thread, especially those who don't think Xmas racks are a big issue, actually buy one thinking it was worth it and that they would be getting, as the description reads "conservatively mid-to-high grade" cards. That kind of description sounds to me like these packs should contain cards worth sending in for grading, when, IMO it sounds like the opposite is true.
Brent has sold over 100 Xmas racks in the past 3 months, and to me shows no signs of slowing down. I think it's a big issue.
EDIT: DanBessette, I agree with you that there are other issues also. I just think that the Xmas racks is a huge one that is easily addressed and solved - just don't sell them! ... or at least describe them properly.
First, love this forum. Learned a lot from reading these threads and have changed my investing strategies because of it. So Kudos to everyone who shares their opinions and coherent thoughts.
X-mas packs by PWCC. IMO, PWCC should stay out of the X-mas pack business. But I've read the disclaimer, seems pretty clear; buyer beware. I find it hard to believe that someone buying vintage unopened baseball card packs is not intelligent enough to know what these packs mean and what the probability is of landing a low pop/star (0%).
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
or are not. The only things that can be said for certain is that they were not packaged by the Topps company as
part of their regular yearly production and distribution.
To me, I wouldn't waste my time with an Xmas rack but I see nothing wrong with offering them for sale
as long as they are accurately described.
On the other hand, I have very serious concerns over the following rack:
1971_PWCC_Rack
which is a 100% CERTAIN counterfeit.
Then you have racks like this:
1971_Suspect_Rack
which no one, as yet, had been able to make a definitive statement about being authentic (BTW, both myself and cpamike examined
this rack in person and had some serious reservations about it due to several yellow flags we identified).
Dave
I agree completely. However the Xmas racks are designed to catch the unsuspecting such as mom looking to surprise Junior for his birthday or the wifey thinking she is getting something good for the hubby.
I have no problem with them being sold they just need to be described for what they are. Too many descriptions dance around the truth.
<< <i>Looks like I picked a good time to sign on. Inaugural post.
First, love this forum. Learned a lot from reading these threads and have changed my investing strategies because of it. So Kudos to everyone who shares their opinions and coherent thoughts.
X-mas packs by PWCC. IMO, PWCC should stay out of the X-mas pack business. But I've read the disclaimer, seems pretty clear; buyer beware. I find it hard to believe that someone buying vintage unopened baseball card packs is not intelligent enough to know what these packs mean and what the probability is of landing a low pop/star (0%). >>
first of all, welcome and solid first post! 2nd of all, ^^ sums it all up. it's not like his description even hints at the fact that these could even possibly be legit. ray charles could even tell by his description used. I for one, don't think he should be touching them w a 10 foot pole, but then again there seems to be a market for them regardless of the authenticity and description. you got the guys out there that simply open them up looking for gradeable cards, you got guys that just want to display a 52 rack pack in their man cave and so on and so forth. it's obvious that there is a market for them and it's not my/your's/his place to figure out why these things sell like they do. as long as the description doesn't even hint that they are legit, then I don't see a problem with it. it's not like he's saying "possible 52 mantle inside".
again, i wouldn't do it but not my call either...
<< <i>The problem with the Xmas racks (the original ones, that is) is that nobody can say for certain what they really are
or are not. The only things that can be said for certain is that they were not packaged by the Topps company as
part of their regular yearly production and distribution.
To me, I wouldn't waste my time with an Xmas rack but I see nothing wrong with offering them for sale
as long as they are accurately described.
On the other hand, I have very serious concerns over the following rack:
1971_PWCC_Rack
which is a 100% CERTAIN counterfeit.
>>
That rack, being an obvious counterfeit, should not have been accepted for consignment by PWCC.
As a leader in this industry, they should have refused it, rather than help perpetuate its existence and future sales.