My Local B & M

BAJJERFAN · May 16, 2015 3:22AM

opts OUT

BillJones · May 16, 2015 3:30AM

Heavy handed laws like this have been around for a long time. Back when I lived in Massachusetts, more than 15 years ago, a local show promoter tried to start a regularly scheduled coin show in Rhode Island. It was going along pretty well until the government there passed a similar law which made impossible for dealers to buy and sell coins at that show. He had to shut the show down.

All you need is one local politician to get robbed or burglarized, and they are on the warpath to catch crooks who are fencing what they have stolen. The trouble is the only people the politicians hurt are the honest businesses who obey the law. The crooks are going to buy and sell stolen property no matter what the law is.

BAJJERFAN · May 16, 2015 3:40AM

Too bad they don't require them to take a pic of the goods AND the seller offering them for sale.

Coin Finder · May 16, 2015 3:44AM

Very hard to sell a closed business.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 16, 2015 3:48AM

The law is there to protect you with red tape, and chains. As soon as we learn to sing in them, we be alright.

CyStater · May 16, 2015 5:46AM

Last I heard they exempted books and collector coins. But would not exempt bullion. He will probably open up shop in one of the smaller towns outside of Ames unless there are further revisions.

PTVETTER · May 16, 2015 5:53AM

I have to do the following
Take a photo of their photo ID and items being sold
Then enter into the system description of the items and amount paid and information on the seller.
Takes about four minutes to complete.
This week the police found items stolen on the site and called me.
Working with the police is no problem.
Returning stolen items to the owners is a good thing not a bad thing!

Type2 · May 16, 2015 6:03AM

How much just asking? When one door closes one opens. It's EZ to give up but hard to stay and fight......

ricko · May 16, 2015 6:10AM

Over regulation and taxation....the death of small businesses nationwide. Cheers, RickO

epcjimi1 · May 16, 2015 6:57AM

<<

opts OUT >>

Good pic, well done, says it all.

RichieURich · May 16, 2015 10:39AM

I don't have a shop, so I don't know all of the particulars on this issue.

But it seems to me, that probably over 99% of what is bought by a shop is not stolen goods. And some deals involve a LOT of coins. It seems to me that it would be a lot more logical, and a lot less work for everyone, that when a report is filed with the police about stolen goods, the police should inform all of the coin shops, pawn shops, cash for gold, etc. and tell them what has been stolen and what to look for. In this way, only the stolen items need to be reported. And, if the shops are informed about what has been stolen, that might prevent them from buying stolen goods. If I ran a shop, I would rather know what has been stolen BEFORE I buy it, and subsequently find out that it was stolen.

Likely scenario: Something really expensive gets stolen, but no one tells any of the likely buyers about it until after they buy it. Thus leaving the dealer who bought the items (without knowing they were stolen) holding the bag. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And would really tick me off that no one let me know the items were stolen before I bought them.

Barndog · May 16, 2015 10:43AM

<< I don't have a shop, so I don't know all of the particulars on this issue.

But it seems to me, that probably over 99% of what is bought by a shop is not stolen goods. And some deals involve a LOT of coins. It seems to me that it would be a lot more logical, and a lot less work for everyone, that when a report is filed with the police about stolen goods, the police should inform all of the coin shops, pawn shops, cash for gold, etc. and tell them what has been stolen and what to look for. In this way, only the stolen items need to be reported. And, if the shops are informed about what has been stolen, that might prevent them from buying stolen goods. If I ran a shop, I would rather know what has been stolen BEFORE I buy it, and subsequently find out that it was stolen.

Likely scenario: Something really expensive gets stolen, but no one tells any of the likely buyers about it until after they buy it. Thus leaving the dealer who bought the items (without knowing they were stolen) holding the bag. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And would really tick me off that no one let me know the items were stolen before I bought them. >>

2 major problems with your idea, Rich:

1. It makes sense
2. The police and local government don't get to take even more money from the pockets of the citizens

So it will never fly

jdimmick · May 16, 2015 10:56AM

He is one problem that rich touched on:

By the time they police get around to calling the shops, to find out if it was purchased, the stuff is long gone.

Just Thursday I get a call from the police in a county south of me (which is known for tremendous crime) large collection of morgan $ was stolen last week. That stuff was sold within a couple of hours of the theft somewhere I can assure you(a no it wasn't me that bought it thankfully) . There are about 25 places with in 50 mile s of me that it could have went.

MsMorrisine · May 16, 2015 11:00AM

<< He is one problem that rich touched on:

By the time they police get around to calling the shops, to find out if it was purchased, the stuff is long gone.

Just Thursday I get a call from the police in a county south of me (which is known for tremendous crime) large collection of morgan $ was stolen last week. That stuff was sold within a couple of hours of the theft somewhere I can assure you(a no it wasn't me that bought it thankfully) . There are about 25 places with in 50 mile s of me that it could have went. >>

Make them register and maintain a working email address

Goldbully · May 16, 2015 11:01AM

And to think these law makers are paid by hard working tax payers to pass crap like this....Who can afford to start a business in this climate?

19Lyds · May 16, 2015 12:00PM

Dumb since there are better and more efficient methods which could be employed other than making coin dealers pay and absorb the cost of doing all the work.

Question: Who in the Ames City Law Enforcement is going to review the "electronic reports" and what will they be looking for that a phone call could not have found?

COALPORTER · May 16, 2015 12:19PM

<< Last I heard they exempted books and collector coins. But would not exempt bullion. He will probably open up shop in one of the smaller towns outside of Ames unless there are further revisions. >>

California has pawn broker laws, but coins are exempt because they don't
have a serial number on them.

COALPORTER · May 16, 2015 12:21PM

<< Dumb since there are better and more efficient methods which could be employed other than making coin dealers pay and absorb the cost of doing all the work.

Question: Who in the Ames City Law Enforcement is going to review the "electronic reports" and what will they be looking for that a phone call could not have found? >>

I don't think they look at all, unless someone reports stolen property.

keets · May 16, 2015 1:07PM

reading some of the article it does in fact seem as though the Law as passed wants the business owner to do the Police Departments work.

in Ohio we are required to notify the local PD with a date/time of a purchase, a physical description and nothing else, then we have to hold an item for 15 days before we can sell. we don't divulge any personal information, because that would be in violation of Privacy Laws. sometimes the Police try to "bully" us and I enjoy seeing my boss throwing them out of the store, always from departments other than where we are located. we have a good rapport with the locals.

pennyannie · May 16, 2015 1:10PM

I had typed out a nice long reply, I reread it before I was about to hit the reply button. I did not have anything nice to say.

BAJJERFAN · May 16, 2015 2:42PM

<< I had typed out a nice long reply, I reread it before I was about to hit the reply button. I did not have anything nice to say. >>

They say that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything, but in this case I'd be willing to cede to an exception

lunytune2 · May 16, 2015 10:33PM

<< I have to do the following
Take a photo of their photo ID and items being sold
Then enter into the system description of the items and amount paid and information on the seller.
Takes about four minutes to complete.
This week the police found items stolen on the site and called me.
Working with the police is no problem.
Returning stolen items to the owners is a good thing not a bad thing! >>

It is a good thing , but do you loose what you have invested in the buy ? If so , that can hurt a business big time on a large purchase .

lunytune2 · May 16, 2015 10:44PM

It is extra work , but look on the other side .... you had valuable coins stolen , then they are recovered due to someone required to do some extra work . I own a business , we have our share of government regulations ... yes , a pain , and yes takes my time and money ... but that is they way it is ....

keets · May 16, 2015 10:57PM

It is extra work , but look on the other side

the spirit of the Law is good and its objective is one most people agree on. what gets lost is that it effectively Legislates work that needs to be done, and makes the Law abiding shop owner do it. the work needs to be done by Law Enforcement, it is their JOB.

lunytune2 · May 16, 2015 11:45PM

It is law enforcements job , but they have so much on their plates with drugs , traffic enforcement , domestics etc everyday that looking for stolen goods is kind of swept under the rug . Without help from the public , alot of this stuff will never get found . The money the police departments run on in our areas is not enough to supply enough officers per shift , let alone officers just to look for stolen property . Many small communities are actually disolving their forces and have neighboring communities and state police cover areas . The force where I live is actually 3 communities combined to cover a larger area. Without this system in place people would still complain they are not doing enough for them , but it is not the fault of the police , they still only have 24 hours in a day also.

lunytune2 · May 16, 2015 11:49PM

I do see both sides of the fence ... just stating the other side !

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 12:07AM

<< It is law enforcements job , but they have so much on their plates with drugs , traffic enforcement , domestics etc everyday that looking for stolen goods is kind of swept under the rug . Without help from the public , alot of this stuff will never get found . The money the police departments run on in our areas is not enough to supply enough officers per shift , let alone officers just to look for stolen property . Many small communities are actually disolving their forces and have neighboring communities and state police cover areas . The force where I live is actually 3 communities combined to cover a larger area. Without this system in place people would still complain they are not doing enough for them , but it is not the fault of the police , they still only have 24 hours in a day also. >>

First off one should not leave valuable items where they can be stolen. Much is stolen by family or friends of family. If you want to sell jewelry, bullion, etc. YOU go to police station and have THEM fill out the paperwork, take the pics, etc. They give you a receipt which you take to the coin dealer or pawn shop. Shop owner indicates what if anything he bought, price and signs it.

lunytune2 · May 17, 2015 12:36AM

At that point , I would sell it myself on EBay or Craigslist ... Too much bs for the seller to get wholesale prices.

USMoneylover · May 17, 2015 1:00AM

<< 

<< I have to do the following
Take a photo of their photo ID and items being sold
Then enter into the system description of the items and amount paid and information on the seller.
Takes about four minutes to complete.
This week the police found items stolen on the site and called me.
Working with the police is no problem.
Returning stolen items to the owners is a good thing not a bad thing! >>

It is a good thing , but do you loose what you have invested in the buy ? If so , that can hurt a business big time on a large purchase . >>

You can definitely lose your investment if you buy stolen property...the best thing you can do is try not to! In my experience it's good practice to ask a few questions the person you're buying items from if you don't know them. A simple: "Where did you get this" or "Why are you selling" can help you make the decision if you should be buying or passing. I would say a very high percentage of stolen goods purchases could be thwarted by this method.

Baley · May 17, 2015 1:14AM

Then enter into the system description of the items and amount paid

This is the part that's most problematic, for some coin shops, lest it be known who is robbing who.

Walkerfan · May 17, 2015 1:21AM

My local B&M always asks for my driver's license (of which they make a photocopy) and they ask me to sign a statement indicating that I own the property that I am selling with a warning that it is illegal and punishable by law to do otherwise. It is not a big deal and it is for EVERYONE'S protection.

topstuf · May 17, 2015 1:26AM

If they call it a "jewelry" store, they can skate almost all the laws.
Yes, fences know this lil trick and that's where they head with hot stuff.
At least that's where the smart crooks go.

Walkerfan · May 17, 2015 1:55AM

<< If they call it a "jewelry" store, they can skate almost all the laws.
Yes, fences know this lil trick and that's where they head with hot stuff.
At least that's where the smart crooks go.

>>

I don't believe this to be true. Contrarily, I think the laws are more stringent for such establishments. My B&M likely sells more jewelry than coins.

sparky64 · May 17, 2015 2:00AM

How about the other side of the display case?

Many people like to keep a low profile and remain anonymous.
They're not going to want to have pics of their id taken and info kept where who knows can study it.

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 2:16AM

<< My local B&M always asks for my driver's license (of which they make a photocopy) and they ask me to sign a statement indicating that I own the property that I am selling with a warning that it is illegal and punishable by law to do otherwise. It is not a big deal and it is for EVERYONE'S protection. >>

I know one dealer in the Des Moines area did this when I sold a coin to him. Another DSM area dealer at a local show just whipped out cash for some AGEs. And all was well in Bajjerville both times.

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 2:21AM

<< Then enter into the system description of the items and amount paid

This is the part that's most problematic, for some coin shops, lest it be known who is robbing who. >>

I wonder what would happen if someone would try to sue a dealer for recovery after he found out the stuff was worth 10 times what the dealer said it was worth.

The best thing that could come out of these situations is that thieves should realize that they have no place to sell stolen stuff.

keets · May 17, 2015 2:44AM

but they have so much on their plates

no excuse at all.

RichieURich · May 17, 2015 2:54AM

<< It is law enforcements job , but they have so much on their plates with drugs , traffic enforcement , domestics etc everyday that looking for stolen goods is kind of swept under the rug . Without help from the public , alot of this stuff will never get found . The money the police departments run on in our areas is not enough to supply enough officers per shift , let alone officers just to look for stolen property . Many small communities are actually disolving their forces and have neighboring communities and state police cover areas . The force where I live is actually 3 communities combined to cover a larger area. Without this system in place people would still complain they are not doing enough for them , but it is not the fault of the police , they still only have 24 hours in a day also. >>

I do understand that law enforcement has a lot on their plate.

But how do you think this would work if car dealers had to report every car they bought, including trade-ins, to the police, then the police would wait a week or so, then come by and say, that car that you bought a week ago was stolen.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that car dealers report every purchase to the local police department.

And whatever system works for stolen cars, why can't we adopt that system for stolen coins?

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 3:21AM

<< but they have so much on their plates

no excuse at all. >>

YEP! walk into any police station and there is always someone at a desk who is NOT out chasing crooks or running down leads.

lunytune2 · May 17, 2015 3:31AM

Cars do get reported through the DMV and have titles and VINS to trace and identify. But I totally understand a dealers point of view. Either way , they make it hard on the SELLER , dealers won't be getting them either. Just a question for the dealers here , how much of your inventory is bought from walk ins as opposed to wholesalers and other dealers ? How detrimental would it be to say I no longer buy from the public ? Or is the scrap end of the buying what keeps dealers afloat ?

lunytune2 · May 17, 2015 3:34AM

Look at the example I gave of my area ... These are suburbs of Pittsburgh Pa . The city has a cop for every square foot of the city ... But we are lucky to cover shifts.

topstuf · May 17, 2015 4:05AM

<< 

<< If they call it a "jewelry" store, they can skate almost all the laws.
Yes, fences know this lil trick and that's where they head with hot stuff.
At least that's where the smart crooks go.

>>

I don't believe this to be true. Contrarily, I think the laws are more stringent for such establishments. My B&M likely sells more jewelry than coins. >>

You can certainly confirm it easily enough.
Call your licensing authority and ask the requirement for a COIN shop, a PAWN shop, and a JEWELRY store.

You will find no mention of Secondhand Dealer license in most areas for jewelry store.

I faced this constantly in my first shop. The "jeweler" next door bought oodles of hot gold from a known fence.
There was no way "Eddie" would come into my shop because he knew he'd have to provide ID.

I was a dealer in 4 separate jurisdictions over a period of 30 years and know of what I speak.

epcjimi1 · May 17, 2015 4:37AM

<< 
First off one should not leave valuable items where they can be stolen. Much is stolen by family or friends of family. If you want to sell jewelry, bullion, etc. YOU go to police station and have THEM fill out the paperwork, take the pics, etc. They give you a receipt which you take to the coin dealer or pawn shop. Shop owner indicates what if anything he bought, price and signs it. >>

This.

Eh wait a minute. What? I gotta go register with the police to sell my coins? NOPE.

TwoBitWilly · May 17, 2015 4:43AM

<< I don't have a shop, so I don't know all of the particulars on this issue.

But it seems to me, that probably over 99% of what is bought by a shop is not stolen goods. And some deals involve a LOT of coins. It seems to me that it would be a lot more logical, and a lot less work for everyone, that when a report is filed with the police about stolen goods, the police should inform all of the coin shops, pawn shops, cash for gold, etc. and tell them what has been stolen and what to look for. In this way, only the stolen items need to be reported. And, if the shops are informed about what has been stolen, that might prevent them from buying stolen goods. If I ran a shop, I would rather know what has been stolen BEFORE I buy it, and subsequently find out that it was stolen.

Likely scenario: Something really expensive gets stolen, but no one tells any of the likely buyers about it until after they buy it. Thus leaving the dealer who bought the items (without knowing they were stolen) holding the bag. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And would really tick me off that no one let me know the items were stolen before I bought them. >>

Or at least let the shops have access to the list of stolen property (coins,jewelry) and check the list before making any purchases from the not so regular customers.

But also do as Keets @ company do have a 10-20 day hold period on the coins/jewelry as well as the funds unless the seller has documented proof they own the items.

I know it's not perfect but we don't live in a perfect world, but it seems to be a little give & take for both sides of the issue.

steelielee · May 17, 2015 6:04AM

Lets apply the same laws and scrutiny to ebay and craigslist sellers. Bet we get some different opinions then.

lunytune2 · May 17, 2015 6:11AM

I'm just stating both sides , I don't sell to dealers , just trade because I always want something.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 17, 2015 6:36AM

Kill the guy who gets it. It's a syndrome and a sport.

coindeuce · May 17, 2015 11:27AM

What many don't realize here is that this is a huge political lobbying issue, mostly prompted by the owners of the leadsonline.com site. They have been playing hardball with many state legislatures to promote the enactment of these second hand collectibles reporting laws, which in many cases have included clauses that offer funding to law enforcement agencies that subscribe to the leadsonline.com database in state or local governments that enact these laws. The revenue stream for leadsonline is generated mostly by the merchants who become subservient to these archaic laws (which ALWAYS include annual licensing fees merchants are required to pay their local governments, on top of the per transaction fee paid to leadsonline.com for data storage), which in effect forces them to become agents of law enforcement without any compensation. It's a freaking bonanza for leadsonline.com, which in effect has a monopoly in this area of data storage.

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 11:34AM

<< 

<< 
First off one should not leave valuable items where they can be stolen. Much is stolen by family or friends of family. If you want to sell jewelry, bullion, etc. YOU go to police station and have THEM fill out the paperwork, take the pics, etc. They give you a receipt which you take to the coin dealer or pawn shop. Shop owner indicates what if anything he bought, price and signs it. >>

This.

Eh wait a minute. What? I gotta go register with the police to sell my coins? NOPE. >>

No, not register. You just complete the paperwork part at the PS instead of the coin shop or pawn shop.

BAJJERFAN · May 17, 2015 11:38AM

When dealing with stolen merchandise is the last person to be holding it [when it's determined to be stolen] on the hook for any loss when the goods are finally reunited with the owner? Assume the dealer and any subsequent holder don't know that the stuff was stolen.

coindeuce · May 17, 2015 11:44AM

"No, not register. You just complete the paperwork part at the PS instead of the coin shop or pawn shop."

Whether this is the format or otherwise, it is still a direct impingement on personal liberty in this constitutional republic.
What's next? Objects of art ? used clothing ? gardening tools ? old appliances ?

My Local B & M

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My Local B &amp; M

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My Local B & M