How do you value the ONLY PCGS Graded MS69 Liberty Seated Coin?

seateddime

Unless I am mistaken PCGS has graded 4 Seated coins as "69"

3 of them are proofs, 2 quarters and a Dollar and each of these coin are monster coins to say the least. The forth coin is a business strike and the only business strike to be graded at basically perfect, PCGS MS69. Gene considered this one of the great masterpiece coins of his collection. As he put it, "what a wonder, what a work of art"

To take it a step further, the coin is not a common date like a 1853 with arrow or other heavily saved date, its a 1845-O which is as rare as the 1843-O in UNC, 2 coins in all grades at PCGS. AU coins are rare to say the least.

I look at the PCGS guide and just have to laugh, the coin sold far to cheap and they lowered the price within a day. There is no universe where a MS69 1845-O dime with an exceptionally lofty grade and an R8 in UNC with 2 known total is going to we worth less than a MS62 1843-O, the second finest known of a coin where there are also just 2 uncs known.

Anyway you look at it, the coin sold far too cheap. About one of the rarest Seated Dimes in UNC that there is and 7 points finer than the next best example and a MS69, unique in it's grade as the finest business strike Liberty Seated Coin. How do you value this coin?

I am sure there are some counter arguments so I would love to hear them.

CuKevin

What did it sell for and when? Link?

MsMorrisine

Never mind

MsMorrisine

Why do you think it sold so low?

OPA

Just like in everything else....demand & supply is the primary cause....lack of demand, will also reflect in the price, regardless of rarity

bigjpst

link

ColonelJessup

Is it worth less in a 68 holder?

Eyeballed the coin for fun. Amazing. Glimmers, gleams and glows. Saw imperfections with my Eschenbach 5X, yet I was not disappointed.

"Looks good in the holder".

Values? IMNSHO these coins are too rare in Unc to matter to 99% of Seated collectors.

seateddime

Sure, the demand was created for the 1843-O dime when a collector realized an UNC could not be found and offered 5x PCGS guide for one.

Let's put it this way, I would pay $100,000 for an MS65 1845-O.

I was the $100,000 bid on the MS62 1843-O and paid 5x then PCGS guide for my AU and would not sell it.

The lack of demand for ANY Seated MS69 PCGS coin at $100,000 is a little interesting.

Lofty Grade aside, this coin is easily a $100,000 coin in MS65,

The early O mint dimes are insane in how cheap they are. Just as the 43-O is now seen as a major rarity so will the 1845-O and 1851-O.

BTW: If you should be in the markets for an MS 1843-O or 1845-O then good luck. These are lock up to where the price guides wont see a chance to be repriced anytime soon.

seateddime

<< <i>Is it worth less in a 68 holder?

Eyeballed the coin for fun. Amazing. Glimmers, gleams and glows. Saw imperfections with my Eschenbach 5X, yet I was not disappointed.

"Looks good in the holder".

Values? IMNSHO these coins are too rare in Unc to matter to 99% of Seated collectors. >>



I feel if the coin was graded MS65 the price would still have been too cheap. It is equal to the 1843-O if it was but a 65, the MS69 grade just adds to the WOW factor.

segoja

Interesting price dynamics

amwldcoin

It always takes at least 2!

seateddime

Had I not pushed the 1843 O MS62 trying to buy it then I doubt it would have run away. Yes it takes 2. Forget the date is absurdly rare.

What about any MS69 Seated coin? The one PF dollar is $150,000 and 2 Newman quarters are at $60,000. These are more common proofs designed to be save. Business strikes are a totally different animal. Maybe that why there is but 1 so well preserved.

MsMorrisine

Labels and wow factor won't mean didley if 69 is just a joke number

So, is 69 right or do you have something else in mind?

mercurydimeguy

Sorry, I cannot see how this graded MS69. It must be a mechanical error...

Either that or the world's worse pictures. I'm not that impressed, it has ticks on the reverse for starters...

Crack and submit that raw and it comes back MS67 at least a few times...

roadrunner

The rare date on this coin is a hindrance to type collectors because now they have spend 2-1/2X on what a stars obverse dime in MS69 "should" cost....if another one were even available. Have to think that assigning this coin a 69 grade out of Eliasberg was possibly not just about the coin's grade. CAC hasn't certified it yet. It does have some micro ticks on both sides so it's not "essentially perfect." Maybe a MS68 or MS68+ grade would be more market accurate? It really comes down to having 2 or 3 gem seated date set collectors who just have to have this coin. And outside of Gene is there another monster dime set in the making?

Can't argue with what the price realized was. But, without knowing who the buyer was, I wouldn't put it past a consortium of dealers "teaming up" on the coin to sell it for max retail down the road. Once at the solid MS67 level for a finest known "by a mile" date the price bumps become worth less and less. Gene's MS67 1867-s quarter fetched $88K in this sale. It's the finest known by 3 points, the only gem, and probably the 2nd or 3rd finest, rare date S mint seated quarter (following the MS68 1864-s Eliasberg). If the coin were a legit MS68 it probably wouldn't add all that much to its price. And going to MS69 would add even less. Once you're already 3 points, or even 7 points better than 2nd best what's a point either way? The 1845-0 is almost too nice and too rare for its own good. It's in a place where relatively few seated coins get rewarded for such "studliness." The Eliasberg NGC MS69 1894-s $5 Lib is another such example. It's fetched in the mid to upper $200K's on its previous appearances. It has some high point scuffs. The coin could/should be worth $200K even if "just" MS68. I remember when that coin sold in 1982 fetching around $20K. How do you price such a coin when there's nothing to compare it too? An MS65 1894-s $5 Lib would be incredibly rare. In looking at Heritage archives I see only 2 PCGS MS68 early seated dimes....1853 NA and 1853 Arrows. I would consider either of those to be about the equal of the 1845-0 when it comes to marks.

The 1845-0 dime is already priced beyond any better date (non-CC) gem MS seated quarter, with the exception of the monster toner ex-Newman 1840-0 no drapery quarter at $200K. I don't think the 45-0 dime belongs in that same class, even at MS68/69. Size matters. So does type. The "no drapery" type is far more important than "stars obverse." The 1845-0 dime is priced well beyond the MS68 1864-s 25c, the MS67 1855-0 25c, and everything else except the rare CC dates and the 40-0 ND above. That's pretty good company. Being an "O" and "S" mint seated coin lover, I realize those don't get the same appreciation as the rare CC coins OR the monster-toner type coins. There are more rare CC or gem type coin collectors out there than those putting together pop top/superb gem sets of seated dimes. For now, we live with what the 45-0 dime brought at this auction....until the next resale.

Can't really compare proofs to uncs. 2 different styles, different demands, different expectations....and different pricing. There's typically far more appreciation for monster seated proofs than there is for monster business strikes. For one, the proofs are generally considered the epitome of the coiner's art. In gem Cameo with color they are masterpieces in high definition. Instead of ticks and reed cuts, they have minute hairlines that are nearly invisible to most eyes. New investors with deep pockets seems to gravitate to gem proofs. It also helps that there is only one coin needed per year, not up to 3 or 4 coins. A gem MS seated set is basically impossible in any of the denominations. One can complete gem proofs across the board from 1854-1891. If you want the early proofs, it's a different ball game. All of it is part of the pricing game of MS vs. PF.

Justacommeman

Pogued.

There have been quire a few great coins that have been flying under the radar pre Pogue

Mark

roadrunner

<< <i>Pogued.

There have been quite a few great coins that have been flying under the radar pre Pogue

Mark >>




Maybe Mark. But the 1845-0 dime should have been "Pogue-proof" as it's unique, one of a kind, with nothing like it in Pogue....unless they have some hidden seated treasures like an 1838-0 "toner" no stars dime in MS69. Do they even have any seated coins.....I didn't think so. So if seated and Barber were your specialties, you took advantage of Gardner 1, 2, and 3.

I didn't see anything great in Gardner that flew under the radar. The best of Gardner's seated material was certainly on the level of Pogue's bust coinage. Though I would concede that monster bust coinage trumps monster seated.

david3142

I am not a seated liberty collector but I was looking at some Barber coinage (and the other major rarities) and had to check this one out. I was not blown away as I was expecting I should be for the 69 grade. Yes, it is extremely clean but I don't remember the luster being noticeably better than the other top coins and it is essentially untoned, so no bump for eye appealing color either. And as others have mentioned, few are completing a full set of these and it's way too expensive for a type coin.

Coinosaurus

The 45-O went cheaper than I expected. First of all, the coin should not exist. Branch mints uncs of better dates are rare to begin with, and to get one at the 69 level is astounding. Most coins aren't 69 when they come off the die, and on top of that the coin had to be preserved for nearly 200 years. The fact that the next coin in line is a 62 conveys the odds of high-grade survival.

That said, some things that worked against the price:

* It is a small coin - less popular

* It is an outlier - hard to price as such

* It does not have the magic green thing

* The timing with the Pogue sale could not have helped

* The strike is very good for a New Orleans coin but not as good as the best Philadelphia coins

* There is no crackout potential

Despite all that it was a great purchase - my congrats to the winning bidder. If a couple whales decide to go after the finest seated dime set it is worth at least double immediately.

19Lyds

I'd have to ask , What was the $200,000 price based on in the first place? I do not see any auction records in the Price guide going back to Dec 1999.

Speculation? Relativity compared to other dimes which sell regularly? What?

As for it's selling price compared to other coins, it's all about the buyer(s). There are MANY low pop coins, meaning single digit coins, that have relatively high grades which simply would not sell at PCGS Price guide.

Something was up with this sale and I really have no experience with Seated Dimes but in looking at the Heritage photo's, my brain is not seeing MS69 compared to other coins of this era. But that's just me.

MsMorrisine

The small idea will be tested with the upcoming H10C

Barndog

<< <i>The small idea will be tested with the upcoming H10C >>



half dimes are unreasonably small. I recommend all collectors, dealers, and well-heeled bystanders just stay away from the Pogue half dimes.

roadrunner

How do I value the only PCGS MS69 seated dime?.....essentially as if it were a MS68+ stickered coin.

Recall that the coin was graded at Eliasberg. Grading standards sort of changed (for the higher) coming out of the Pittman and Eliasberg sales. Big numbers were pretty common. Some time back then the first PF70 Lincoln cent was graded. I think a MS69 or PF69 Indian cent was also graded. Those 2 came back for downgrading. In going forward, I don't think we'll see any more MS69 seated coins unless the grading system is revamped. There's really no need for such a grade when MS68+ would more than cover it for any coins currently out there. A 68+ is still a masterpiece and work of art. The luster on a 68 or 69 coin has to be mind-boggling. Those basically don't exist for early seated and bust coinage. 68/69 surfaces are only one part of the equation. And you just can't compare PF 68/69's to MS 68/69's that were not specifically saved. If this coin were graded NGC MS69. The odds of a cross to PCGS MS69 would be miniscule.

yosclimber

$123,376 5/2015
$161,000 4/2005

Apparently the demand for a condition rarity LS dime is not what it was 10 years ago.
LS dimes are already low demand for the full series given the numerous rarities (including the unique one).
So going another step further to do the full series in top condition will only be attempted by very few (such as Gardner himself).

And perhaps potential bidders are saving their cash for items in the Pogue sales.

tradedollarnut

I'll take the PF69 Knoxville trade dollar, thank you very much...

roadrunner

Dusted off the Eliasberg catalog last night and noted the two following dimes:

1843-0 MS66 realized $29,700. Cat description notes a few minute marks from perfection. Decided strike weakness in the lower wreath is probably why it didn't grade higher.
1845-0 MS67 realized $90,200.

An MS65 PCGS 1843-0 dime shows up on the PCGS rolls on my 1998-2001 pop reports. The 45-0 is there too at PCGS MS69. No doubt the Eliasberg dimes. While the cataloguers saw the coins as one grade apart, PCGS gave them 4 pts. difference. The cataloguers weren't that far off as a rule....if anything they tended to be a bit conservative compared to what the coins ended up grading. The factor of 3X in the pricing would suggest a 2-3 pt difference by the bidders. I do find it wild that the PCGS price guide value on the MS65 43-0 is $225,000. Based on the sale prices that would leverage up the 45-0 today to $683K. Didn't happen. One would have to assume that the sharpest minds in seated dimes in 1996 saw these coins as 3X different in value. One could roughly equate the 43-0 in MS65 to the lone MS65 59-s that fetched $88K in its 2012 auction appearance (1 of 5 uncs between both services). I guess you could say if the 43-0 has potentially tripled in price since Eliasberg, why hasn't the 45-0? The Eliasberg 1864-s 25c is a freak MS68 that fetched $104,500 in 1997....more than the 45-0. It's never really surpassed that same price level. No doubt the PCGS price guide between the 43-0 and 53-0 needs to be cleaned up (as there's a huge discrepancy between each at both low and high MS levels).

The 1851-0 NGC MS65 dime at Gardner brought $15K. That seems cheap even for a solid MS64.

keyman64

not that it matters much but by today's standards I do not think that would grade 69.
I see plenty of marks on the coin that would prevent it from 69 in my view.
Similar with the MS69FB Mercury Dimes, I do not think any have graded that high since the + designation came out
but there have been quite a few that have graded 68 or 68+.
BUT, as already mentioned, it is far superior to the next highest example, regardless of the grade on the holder.

As for the rarity, the next highest graded being a 62, the pedigree, the older holder for stability, etc etc etc,
it may have sold a bit cheap but things like this come down to demand. If there isn't the demand for it then it
won't sell anywhere near the expected realm. In the same market and the same bidders if I was told that the 62
sold for 100K then you are correct, I would not expect for this example to sell as low as it did.

As for PCGS dropping the price guide value on it, since there is ONLY ONE and the auction JUST HAPPENED with
the bidders that could possibly want it....then yes, it makes sense to me. If the coin stays off the market for 10 years
then I could see the price getting adjusted a healthy amount higher so that the perception of the coin becomes
unavailable and demand might increase for when it is sold the next time.

As for how I might value it...I would agree with the PCGS Price Guide unless you can point to more than one person willing to offer
more for it right now but since the auction just happened.........

Also, it might be interesting to examine a point. Because it is a small coin (dime), regardless of the rarity in MS, is it valued less just
because of its size? Or are seated coins in lower demand when compared to the other series?

brg5658

That coin is not an MS69 to my eye. I think it sold for what it's worth -- probably around an MS67, and extremely scarce as such. I don't think the 69 on the label really fooled or wowed anyone.

Wabbit2313

That coin would not get a 69 if cracked out and sent in right now. No way. The price reflects this much more than my simple opinion.

indeetlib

Interesting for sure. Seems the holder didn't help this coin any - this should bring at least $100K even as a raw coin (in the proper venue), no? Just goes to show that collectors aren't as in love with slab grades as they were 5 or 10 years ago. I think buying habits are shifting towards actually considering the coin itself (imagine that). But what if this coin had been stickered? Perhaps then it would have garnered some additional interest from type collectors and ended up more in the $200-250K range, who knows. Reality is, this probably shouldn't be a 69 except in the sense that's is so far and above any other example of the date that it's near perfection for the issue.

This sort of reminds me of the price dynamics of a few Wreath Cents that heritage sold last year - an OGH MS68 at $329K and a new-holdered MS66+ CAC at $528K just a few months later (and both were EAC 63 per MB). I think there's just not as much excitement for these maxed out OGH super grades, especially when they aren't stickered. Freshness and quality for the grade is everything right now and I think the MS69 holder actually hurt the price realized of this dime.

BarberFanatic

<< <i>Sorry, I cannot see how this graded MS69. It must be a mechanical error...

Either that or the world's worse pictures. I'm not that impressed, it has ticks on the reverse for starters...

Crack and submit that raw and it comes back MS67 at least a few times... >>



We have a winner! I was thinking almost the exact same thing. If I were to crack that coin and resubmit it 50 times, there is no chance in hell it EVER comes back in a 69 holder, let alone a 68 holder.

BillJones

<< <i>Sorry, I cannot see how this graded MS69. It must be a mechanical error...

Either that or the world's worse pictures. I'm not that impressed, it has ticks on the reverse for starters...

Crack and submit that raw and it comes back MS67 at least a few times... >>



That coin would have to look a lot better in person than it does in that photo for me to grade it MS-69. There is die rust, spots, less than blazing luster and a mark above Ms. Liberty's wrist. Maybe it's a blazer in person, but from those photos, not so much.

roadrunner

The coin looks as decent as the 2 other pre-1860 seated dimes that PCGS has graded MS68. I'd have no problem with the 1845-0 in a MS68 holder. One could argue that it brought MS67 or MS68 money. As finest by at least 5 points it really doesn't matter. The 1867-s quarter I've mentioned earlier is 3 pts higher than a couple of 64's that have fetched in the $30K to $40K range. That would seem to make the MS67 at $88K a bargain. You just don't get the bang for the buck on each extra point for gem better date seated as would for say a common date type coin where the audience is much larger. As a MS68 I think JA would sticker the coin. He generally seems not to want to sticker MS69 coins. I don't know if he has even done one in any series. As a comparison, there are aprox 100 MS68 $20 Saints out there....not a single one yet stickered. There are just some coins that presently are not stickerable....and MS69 type coins rank near the top of that list.

But if I owned the PCGS MS65 1843-0 out of Eliasberg and could get the Price Guide value of $225K today....I'd flip that in a heartbeat. I doubt that coin could have fetched $225K back in 2007/2008 when there were more top gun seated buyers competing for pop top status. Several of them are now gone. Recall the MS63 1852-0 quarter going for an insane $125K back then? It sold for around $50-60K last time out. There are many instances like that. How would you compare a MS62 1843-0 10c at $100K vs. a MS67 1867-s quarter at $88K?

seateddime

For what it's worth the coin could grade MS67 and the value would be the same.

Maybe in a MS67+ CAC holder it would bring more.

Bottom line is no matter how you look at it the coin is worth more than the 2nd finest known 1843-O that just sold for $141,000 for a MS62.

My guess is this - It was a big ticket dime and the coin was won by $1 over the underbidder's cut bid, that is irony so the underbidder cut bid too soon and the next bid level would have been $120,000 to the underbidder.

As for the 1851-O that too was a great deal for someone.

I think the S mints and CC mints get all the love and glamor but looking at the O mints, that is where the rare coins come into play. Once the market figures this out the prices will soar

roadrunner

<< <i>....I think the S mints and CC mints get all the love and glamor but looking at the O mints, that is where the rare coins come into play. Once the market figures this out the prices will soar >>



The S mints aren't exactly closing the gap all that quick to the CC's either. I got on board the O mint half dime, dime, and quarter train back in 1982 when I bought the finest known 1858-0 dime at auction. In fact I paid so much it was one of the worst performing coins I bought that decade! Today it's a PCGS MS66+ and their finest graded. During the 1980's I also owned a 56-0 dime in MS65, 1852-0 in MS64, 1857-0 in MS66 (finest known for that time), and 1859-0 in MS65. I also owned an 1850-0 dime (semi-PL) in MS65 that today is either in a 66 or 67 holder. I was offered MS63 examples of 42-0 and 53-0 at that time for around $15K each...I nearly choked (and politely passed) when Gene Edwards quoted me those prices. But no finer specimens had yet come to market. Within 8 years both coins became available in MS65 for that kind of money. I still kick myself for passing on the James Stack 1853-0 10c in January 1990 for the piddly sum of $12K. While that date was my #1 want in seated dimes and I would have paid $15K+ for an honest MS65 at that time, I felt the coin was only a 64+ with the potential that the dusky reverse was messed with. Imagine my surprise when Jay Miller bought the coin and got it graded 1st try as NGC MS66. He sold it to Bruce Amspacher for over $20K who promptly cracked it out and sent it to PCGS.....yup.....MS65. So that was a quick $10K lesson in holder reversal. It's not been back to a MS66 holder since.

The short of this is that I've been chasing choice/gem rare S mints since 1975 and O mints since 1982. In 30-40 years they have slowly closed ground.....but the gap is still big. The half dimes and dimes have the most work to do to close the gap. And it's not going to happen quickly. The market has been trying to figure this out for 40 years....and it's still got it wrong. It just may be that it will stay "wrong" and these gaps will exist vs. CC/type coins that have insatiable demand. I first "discovered" 1858-0 quarters in 1975 and bought my first choice unc in 1983. I had 3 of them by 1988...and no one else cared. Well, I did pay $4K for that 58-0 25c and sold it for $22K in 1990. But, that coin has not advanced in price since.....25 years and counting. And that could be the overall finest quality known. These guys still have their work cut out for them. As the Colonel has stated, these coins are too rare for their own good. Their hefty mintages make newbies stare at them in disbelief. How can a coin with 520,000 minted be an R-7 in unc? (1858-0 25c). That's how it often works. Mintage is irrelevant to us....but not the ones with the deepest pockets. It's more than just chance that 75% of all seated quarter dates/mints (1838-1891) are rarer than a 1901-s Barber quarter (mintage 72K).

Fwiw I've always loved the O mint dimes and quarters the most. And that was probably because they were the most misunderstood coins 30-40 years ago. And it didn't help that I could hardly find any of them in gem unc from 1975-1987. They had bigger mintages than the S mints but much lower survival rates. The quality of the coins also typically was worse than the S mints. How could you not love them when they showed up in choice/gem unc at much less money than a comparable S mint? They are certainly an interesting sub set of the seated series. With the Newman 1840-0 25c having fetched $329K (a record for a non-rarity) that's closing the gap some.