Well Fargo St Gaudens vs Non Wells Fargo
BWCoin
Posts: 92
Does any one know why it seem that the Wells Fargo ones seem to be graded higher than non wells fargo coins?
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Actually might have more to do with the night the grader had before meeting either.
<< <i>Hoardflation
Yup. When you have nearly 8,000 gem 1908 NM saints put aside at time of issue, it's not much of a stretch to figure there could be a lot of high grades in there. The median grade was MS66 when PCGS first did these (all ogh's). Only a single coin graded less than MS65....a lone MS63. Besides never being circulated, these bags of 1908's must have rarely moved because they don't have the hits often seen on coins this size and weight.
When these came out this lone hoard had >10X the number of 1908 NM MS66's than had ever been graded at PCGS. There had only been <25 MS67's and 0 MS68's up to that time. I've generally liked the quality of WF ogh's that I've run across though many people think they're over-graded. No doubt many were cracked out and resubmitted or sent to NGC. The heavy grade inflation in MS64-67 Saints really didn't begin until the 1998-2004 period. If not for this hoard MS66 and MS67 $20 Saint type coins would be a lot harder to come by. It's interesting that CAC has yet to sticker a single 1908 NM WF saint. Here's the break down.
MS65 - 2237 coins
MS66 - 4867 coins
MS67 - 695 coins
MS68 - 98 coins
Disagreeing with roadrunner (was the thread a year ago?), I've observed these coins, and, because of them, all '08 NMs to be awful "investments" and a drag on the whole common-date Saints market. They are discriminated against for a reason.
The coins may be technical 7+, but the satiny lustre has no immediate visual impact. The absence of detraction/distraction may be very apparent, but the blaze is not there. And they don't dip out worth chit.
As type collector I might consider buying one of these "stigmatized" coins if the price was right (relatively cheap). Getting to upgrade a gold coin from the era from MS-65 to MS-67 could be exciting, but like I said I never see the coins.
Per JA "They're really pretty bullion, aren't they?"
YMMV
Just my 20 bucks worth . . .
My guess as to why not that many around is because lots of ignorant people were sold super-grade coins via promotion by Spectrum at a time when CAC wasn't around. Which may not have mattered. All the NGC coins are attempted upgrades. Some made it, some didn't.
Stagecoaches may well have been the meme from Day One. Romantic history with a touch of truthiness. . . . .
There were 3 batches of grading of the original Wells Fargo Hoard....it appears PCGS only did the first 2 grading rounds. Does anybody recall if the 3rd batch was entirely NGC or if it was shared by both ? Or maybe NGC even shared in the grading of the first 2 batches and I just haven't caught the original WF Holders from that time period.
I found an old article that mentioned that the MS-65's originally sold for about $1,200....the 66's for $3,000 and the 67's for $10,000. That was with gold trading $280-$380 from 1996-2001. The premiums were HUGE.
Maybe the 65's and 66's were done solely by PCGS, and the 67's were done by both (or maybe even NGC solo) ? I know PCGS did the 68's and 69's because they are much rarer.
I was grading at NGC (in the 90’s) when at least one very large group of the coins was graded for the first time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I collect saints but don't own one.
Lady liberty has a fat leg, beak nose & there is a blind eagle on the back. (short rays give it away)
Charles Barber really improved the look of the coin in late 1908. (with motto)
Trivia time
Some 1908 coins have a Barber (new) obverse & a 1907 (old) eagle. (long rays / no motto)
I would recommend picking up a nice one of those in MS65 because I think they are under valued "transition coins"
They're more rare and no distinction is made between them and earlier ones.
I've scratched my head a few times over that one.
Why no mention that a completely different set of dies is used?
My Saint Set
Good points....I'll go back over RWB's SGDE book and see what he said about the die pairs. Read the book 5 years ago so I can't recall something that specific and dies have never been my numismatic strength.
Interesting flash back to 10 yrs ago when higher grade Saints and gold in general brought strong premiums for condition. Those buying better dates, super high grades, have seen their values get pummeled by circulated bullion coins. I recall back around 2012 considering buying a MS 64 1913-S $20 Saint. It was such a huge premium to common dates it scared me. And just what would happen down the road if the price of gold exploded? So luckily, I passed on that one.
I found it interesting that in my earlier 2015 post I had noted that CAC had never stickered a single gem 1908 Wells Fargo Saint from 2008-2015....7 yrs. In general, they held those coins in low esteem, esp. because of the flattish strikes and the slightly subdued luster. Well today it's much different.
You had some great information back then and since, thanks RR !! I actually was doing research on a potential acquisition at FUN 2026 and depending on the grade I want to make sure I get an original WF 1908 holder. It's not the sexiest coin, I realize, so I want to strive for appearance and authenticity.
Agree with you on strikes and luster....you have to be patient and not force it.
I'm ok with the typical look of a MS65/66 WF Saint. It's just that for so long....CAC was not.
If you're going to get one in MS65 or lower grade at very little premium to melt....I'd recommend looking for the Double Die
Reverse. They appear on approx 1-3% of them. For a while there ANACS attributed them.....probably no one else. These have a double "beak" on the eagle as well as some unusual die gouges/cutting around Sun Rays #5-#7. It's weird enough so you can probably figure what you found is that variety. I own a couple but the price of gold has likely erased any of the premium they once fetched. I just saw one of them (unattributed 65 or 66) sell on Great Collections in the past 1-2 weeks....
It's amazing how many modest premium Saints and other gold coins have had their premiums eliminated as gold has doubled and then some in the last 5 years.
You wonder....if/when gold approaches $10,000 (and I think it will for most of us not in their $80's
).....if you could eventually see premium erosion on sub-63 and below MCMVII HR's !! 
I know right now with a premium of about 400-500% it's not in danger of seeing it, but watch the gold price move like that and we might have threads here on CU talking about that in 2035 !! 
An excellent analysis of why so many of the 1908 No Motto Saints have a very "drab" appearance historically is presented in Roger Burdette's SAINT GAUDENS DOUBLE EAGLES book, which I consider the Bible for Saint collectors.
Here's some of the analysis which focuses not so much on the strike, collars, or usual suspects....but on the dies and things like the curvature. Keep in mind this was the first new calendar year Saint die (you had both the MCMVII HR and the 1907 Arabic a year earlier) that was NOT worked on by ASG. It was a mish-mash of ASG's earlier design, his son, Henry Hering, and Charles Barber.
"...However, certain aspects of the dies must be understood within the context of overall appearance. Coins from the original short ray obverse – Philadelphia or Denver Mints – will not have the sharpness of a long ray version. This is because many areas of the original die were fuzzy and would not appear sharply stuck regardless of the amount of care taken in making the coins.
Several areas are consistently weak. These include Liberty’s nose, across the center of her chest, her left knee and foreleg, and her right knee. In the periphery, all stars are softly formed and look as if they are “out of focus” when compared to other parts of the same coin. There are also a few spots where die detailing is excessive, the most evident of these is the capitol building where every stroke of Barber’s graver is crisp; yet, the adjacent stars are balls of fuzz. On the reverse the eagle’s lower body is usually inadequately defined. These problem areas are largely the result of poorly detailed dies and should not be indicators of inadequately struck coins.
A further problem relating to appearance is the irregular texture of fields on both sides. Some parts are smooth, others lightly textured and still others rough and seemingly unfinished. Much of this is due to the uneven die radius of Saint-Gaudens’ designs. The fields do not have a single smooth curve, but change curvature at several points. This made mechanical resurfacing using an emery wheel impossible, and the coining department die setters, and engraving depart-ment die sinkers and engravers had to do all repair by hand. To help hide fine scratches left behind by an emery stick, repair was followed by local use of a cotton swab dipped in weak acid. Every repair was different and every result was different. If the acid was too strong or left on too long, the affected part of the die surface became rough. If no acid was used, or too little, the area remained smoother than adjacent untouched portions."
Roger is The Man!
No arguments there
....I'm far from an expert on striking, dies, master hubs, etc....did the curvature thing make sense in this context, CH ? I don't think I have ever seen that used as a reason for lack of sharpness before but it does make sense when you consider the overall newness of the Saint-Gaudens design.
The point about the stars being "fuzzy" but the Capitol and other devices being sharp is also unusual. You'd figure they'd each match for consistency purposes but I guess not. The difference in "die detailing" seems specific to the 1908 NM, too....but I'd have to go over other coins to verify this although I don't recall it from when I read the book 5 years ago.
Need to dig out Roger's book and re-read it, but lots of things can affect the sharpness of the designs on finished coins in general. Look at the weak N's found on the reverses of certain year of Indian cents. Probably the result of a poorly prepared Working Hub, though it may have happened at the Master Hub level.
Just from personal experience with the coins I would say that the first obverse Master Hub for the 1908 $20's was very poorly prepared. I might speculate that this happened because Chief Engraver Charles Barber was still miffed off at having had the $20 redesigned by somebody other than him, and he just didn't give a damn!
Planchet preparation, especially rim upsetting, and/or die basining are why New Orleans Morgan Dollars tend to be weak in the centers and CC Dollars tend to be weak on the rims. Philly and SF did them right, and got better results with the same raw dies.
Many 1876-CC Dimes look like Hell on a pogo stick. I have an accepted article in the pipeline at The Numismatist that will explain how this happened. My new book already explains the problems on the 1922 Cents.