<< <i>Just a little strange that you consigned the set to sell, then immediately bought one of the cards from me when I won it? That, plus lack of disclosure, seems odd. I don't really know what to think. No judgement yet, because I don't really see the "angle", though perhaps there is one. I just don't get it. >>
I had 4 sets in different grades running under construction around that time. 3 of those are still going, that set was the only one I had "completed". I needed your card for an all 9 set that's about halfway together at the moment and getting harder every day.
There's no real "angle". I guess the "angle" on the break is I get the individual boxes in the form I want to collect them in, while getting rid of the others mostly at one time.
It's not like I'm getting over market on them, I didn't set the prices. From my perspective, they're honestly all underpriced (maybe not the 1975 mini box, but the case boxes for sure) based on what I see available from other sources and the utter lack of opportunities for people (including me) to be able to get involved in breaking a sealed case. But that's why I don't have anything to do with the pricing. >>
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I'm not trying to lob stones here; just trying to understand the situation.
<< <i>I agree with Doug here. Had you been up front about your vested interest in coordinating this group break, instead of starting a thread under the guise that that you had no connection to the product to be arranged for sale, I don't think people would have had a problem with that. The issue here really has nothing to do with boxes FASC or boxes not FASC. >>
Why does that matter so much to people? I could have easily listed them in B/S/T with the condition that 15 had to sell to break them open, in the end that's no different than what's going on in the break and looks like where they're headed anyway.
You guys keep saying I have a vested interest or whatever term you want to use, but I don't get paid for anything that doesn't belong to me so it's no different than if I was just trying to sell them myself.
Tim - do you not have a vested interest in the boxes you currently have for sale in B/S/T? Of course you do, you're just taking a different route to sell it. You could probably pack them out if you want, would that really be any different than a group break? It's not in my eyes, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that view.
It's obvious a lot of you guys think I've done some terrible thing or deceived you somehow, but I would challenge you to consider what's now changed that you know all this? Nothing about the product has changed, nothing about the prices has changed.
Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
What I don't understand is why isn't the focus on the product available and the prices? That's ultimately the decision you're making and what you're getting - if it's good stuff with good prices and you want some, you participate. If you don't, you pass. That's really no different than any "buy or sell" type of transaction that occurs on the board.
What happens in the background doesn't change that decision, or at least I don't think it should.
As others have said, if you had been unfront about owning these boxes I don't know that there would have been an issue. If everything sold out you would stand to do over $13,000 in sales. So, yes, you are/were using this forum and group rip to put money in your pocket. Same thing with the 86 basketball set. If that set didn't belong to you would you have posted the set break here and pushed it like you did? James
Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>As others have said, if you had been unfront about owning these boxes I don't know that there would have been an issue. If everything sold out you would stand to do over $13,000 in sales. So, yes, you are/were using this forum and group rip to put money in your pocket. Same thing with the 86 basketball set. If that set didn't belong to you would you have posted the set break here and pushed it like you did? James >>
Yes, I would have. If it hadn't been mine, I would have bought a spot or two. The last two times those sets were broken slots sold out in less than 8 hours, and I missed them both.
Those things are fun, I'm pretty sure most everyone who participated had fun doing it.
<< <i>Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front? >>
If it's not important, why does it need to be said? It's circular logic.
If you think it needs to be said, doesn't that mean it actually is important?
I don't see that, but my focus is not so much on the who as it is on the what and how much. I guess I missed it.
Wow this really turned into something I didn't see happening. I agree with a few of the members that mentioned this wouldn't be a problem with most if you'd simply just been upfront with everyone in the first place. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but please take my name off what I had reserved. I sense there will be a lot more people crying "foul", and I simply just don't want to be a part of it. I wasn't picking much up at all anyway.
<< <i>Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front? >>
If it's not important, why does it need to be said? It's circular logic.
If you think it needs to be said, doesn't that mean it actually is important?
I don't see that, but my focus is not so much on the who as it is on the what and how much. I guess I missed it. >>
Realtors are required to disclose material interest in a property they are listing for sale, it's in their code of ethics. I imagine it's required by law in most states, too. There are countless other statutes surrounding conflict of interest at the corporate and municipal levels. To say it's not important is incorrect. It doesn't change a single thing about the product being sold but you do benefit by getting your money faster in a group break compared to having it sit in consignment waiting to be sold.
This board is slowly dying........I understand protecting the best interest of the hobby if there is something unscrupulous going on but in this case, it's getting out of hand.
Do you trust OPC and his opinion on unopened material? Do you trust the BBCE wrapping? Do you trust the items will be shipped? Do you like the price?
I could see some people having issues, then don't join in. However, advertising this like the OP is out to get someone is ludicrous...........there are unopened packs and sealed cases......pick on, pick a few...whatever floats your boat.
I decided not to participate in the break because the prices aren't very good for the items I was interested in (75 minis, 81 fb cello, 86 fb rack).
That said it is a little shady to organize a group rip of your own cases and boxes without mentioning that fact. It doesn't change the product but certainly leaves one questioning the reasons behind organizing the rip. In the end it is really on Tom at OPC Baseball since he agreed to let Bounce include his own boxes/cases in the group rip and didn't insist on having him disclose that information to those looking to participate. When someone is working to establish their reputation they probably should avoid even the semblance of impropriety.
This is a bummer. I've had good dealings with OPC Baseball & Bounce, and I think competition for group rips BBCE is a good thing.
However, the trust and loyalty of the CU Board is something that is highly sensitive. For that reason, I think it would have been wise for all parties to disclose their interest in this product break (and the '86 Fleer break). Having the CU Board as a customer base should have more cherished. I don't think it would have changed my participation in this break or the '86 Fleer break, but not having everything shared up front is going to cause me to pull out of this break (the very little I had reserved). It just doesn't feel right.
I feel bad for the time Bounce has put into the break as I think it's going to fall apart and for potential loss of trust & business with OPC Baseball from other Boardmembers.
I hadn't planned to participate, though not because I did or did not trust the break, just wasn't in the market for those particular items at the moment.
However, after reading this I'm curious, might there have been any difference in interpretation of this break if it had been posted under B/S/T instead?
<< <i>I decided not to participate in the break because the prices aren't very good for the items I was interested in (75 minis, 81 fb cello, 86 fb rack). >>
Fair enough on the 75 minis, although I would suggest the product in the last break and the product offered here are not the same thing. Those weren't FASC boxes, this one was.
However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either?
<< <i>I decided not to participate in the break because the prices aren't very good for the items I was interested in (75 minis, 81 fb cello, 86 fb rack). >>
Fair enough on the 75 minis, although I would suggest the product in the last break and the product offered here are not the same thing. Those weren't FASC boxes, this one was.
However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either? >>
I think what you're missing is this forums's affinity to BBCE that you and OPC (trademark infringement anyone?) don't have. The difference between the seller on this break and BBCE isn't just the logo on the cellophane, it's years building a brand by delivering great products and service. Making huge investments to set up at the National and buying millions of dollars in wax. Relationships matter and they take time to build.
You can't just swipe someones business model, run a break and expect to get the same price as a seller that's been running these things for years. People will call BS and IMO that is what you are seeing.
<< <i>However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either? In what world does OPC baseball get identical prices for a group rip as BBCE? Robb >>
there apparently doesn't seem to be one. the 81 box in the BBCE break came from...BBCE. the 81 box in this break came from...BBCE.
makes perfect sense they'd have different prices right?
Bounce since you don't seem to understand what was wrong with organizing a group rip to sell your own product it is not much of a surprise that you don't understand why people would be unwilling to pay OPC baseball the same prices as BBCE in a group rip. Reputation is worth $$s especially when the BBCE wrapped boxes are going to be opened and packs distributed individually. You trust Tom, that is great, but he has not earned my trust as an unopened buyer nor most of the folks on this board.
DPeck, I agree with what you are saying. However if the item you are buying is FASC, then the argument becomes "Do you trust the wrapper of the box that it came from a sealed case?" I bought the items that were labeled FASC, we'll see how they come out as I expect to bust at least one of them.
<< <i>Bounce since you don't seem to understand what was wrong with organizing a group rip to sell your own product it is not much of a surprise that you don't understand why people would be unwilling to pay OPC baseball the same prices as BBCE in a group rip. Reputation is worth $$s especially when the BBCE wrapped boxes are going to be opened and packs distributed individually. You trust Tom, that is great, but he has not earned my trust as an unopened buyer nor most of the folks on this board. Robb >>
If the boxes were already wrapped by BBCE, the only real question is whether the seller "did something" to it, which is the whole point of the shrink wrap. I suppose another question could be whether the actual packs from that box are what was delivered, but there are easy ways to establish that (uploaded pictures and videos, live breaks, etc.). If it's wrapped and undisturbed, you're buying the "wrappers reputation", not the sellers.
I'm not the only one that trusts Tom. There are plenty of other people on this board and elsewhere who do and many have provided their thoughts on Tom's trustworthiness already. It's not in question. If you've never bought from him before, then you haven't given him a chance to "earn your trust". I don't know whether you have or not, but if you haven't then what you said is meaningless because it's based on a sample size of exactly zero. You'd have no basis in fact to make a judgement either way.
<< <i>I think the results of your group rip speak for themselves. Robb >>
there wasn't enough interest in the products, regardless of anything else. "transparency" or "disclosure" wouldn't have changed the ultimate results.
but the way to prove it is to organize the same break with BBCE. that will be difficult for two reasons: first, they don't have the same product (unless it's hiding in the back and not listed on the website). second, it would be more expensive.
believe whatever you want, cast your doubts however you see fit, but in the end this was good product at good prices from trustworthy people. it's clear to me the only way to earn your trust is to let you "borrow my wallet" or sell things at significant discounts to market (including for BBCE wrapped product). that's not really selling, that's "fire selling" and I see no reason to do that.
as soon as you show me lower prices on the same items, maybe i'll reconsider. but you can't.
oh - and i'll take your silence as a "no, i've never bought anything from Tom so I have no idea, but i also have no problem calling his reputation into question based on nothing." Good work, Robb.
I've had nothing but great interactions with Tom, and I think you're doing him exactly zero favors here bounce. and fwiw, the bbce wrap knockoff move probably doesn't help much either.
Figured it was headed this way. Some people got some solid buys on the OPC boxes. Again, this board isn't going to grow if people keep the pitch forks and torches out every time someone attempts to do something like this that isn't BBCE related.
OPC Baseball is a career card dealer, how does that make him an expert in unopened material? I have nothing against Tom but the fact of the matter is that reputations are earned. When you want to break into a business that you have no reputation for you have to offer people a reason to do business with you. Simply having product that the market leader doesn't currently have is not enough especially when you charge market prices or higher for it.
Not sure what fire sale prices you are imagining but the last 1986 Topps Football rack box BBCE had on their website sold for $1300 earlier this year if I remember correctly. The last BBCE wrapped 1975 mini FASC wax box sold on ebay BIN for $2850. I have been buying BBCE authenticated 86 fb racks for $42 and 75 mini packs for $75-$85 for the last 18 months heck even Fritsch has been selling 86 T fb racks for less than $67 a pop. This group rip Tom was looking for $3240 for the 75 mini box ($90 /pack) and $1608 ($67 /rack) for the 86 fb rack box. Could he get that on ebay or his website given enough time? Probably but why gauge the CU group rip participants? A successful group rip would have helped establish his reputation with a wider audience of collectors.
I have spent a fair amount of $$s on unopened over the years and have dealt with every major unopened dealer since the 90s. I am more than willing to give OPC baseball a chance but Tom needs to be selling something I am interested in and at a reasonable price. He is at peak of the market pricing which is certainly his right but not likely to get much of my business. Trust is not simply granted because you have custom shrink wrap, a web site and travel to Canada.
The group rip requires trust in the dealer. Trust that he will assign packs randomly, not cherry pick any material and fully back the product he is selling. There was a level of risk associated with this group rip that simply does not exist when using BBCE and the prices did not reflect that.
If you had been transparent about your vested interest in the rip and the prices had been right I think this group rip would have worked fine. I am hardly the only former group rip participant that failed to participate. I am simply the one replying to this thread.
The part of this group rip that really stung, and sucked the life out of me, was finding out about the 1986 Basketball break.
I participated and almost bought extra slots because of the OP's enthusiasm.
I thought I was listening to a passionate collector, instead I was listening to a salesman. I was excited for the 86 break, but got really pumped about it from listening to the OP.
I feel bad for the people who bought slots because of the hype he manufactured in that thread. The OP was not in this group rip thread, or the 86 break, to talk about cards and memorabilia, but instead to make a buck off me and countless others. That is not what this place is about. Even though I did OK on the break, I can't help but feel duped.
This is now the second time the OP has been deceitful for financial gain.
The OP opened this "group rip" with the slogan, "Who wants to break something with me?" when in actuality it meant, "Who wants to break something for me?"
I mean, just read the 1986 break here and if anyone thinks I'm out of line for feeling this way please reply here and let me know.
<< <i>DPeck, I agree with what you are saying. However if the item you are buying is FASC, then the argument becomes "Do you trust the wrapper of the box that it came from a sealed case?" I bought the items that were labeled FASC, we'll see how they come out as I expect to bust at least one of them. >>
I was just asking a question. If you could tell by how the packs are situated in the box then it would be easy to tell if they had been searched.
Personally I think you can feel good about your purchase. I have dealt with Tom and spoken to him on the phone at length in the past and I think he is serious about trying to build a card business and to do so you must build a good reputation. Obviously playing a role in situations like this can help do that if buyers are satisfied.
<< <i>DPeck, I agree with what you are saying. However if the item you are buying is FASC, then the argument becomes "Do you trust the wrapper of the box that it came from a sealed case?" I bought the items that were labeled FASC, we'll see how they come out as I expect to bust at least one of them. >>
I was just asking a question. If you could tell by how the packs are situated in the box then it would be easy to tell if they had been searched.
Personally I think you can feel good about your purchase. I have dealt with Tom and spoken to him on the phone at length in the past and I think he is serious about trying to build a card business and to do so you must build a good reputation. Obviously playing a role in situations like this can help do that if buyers are satisfied.
Good luck with your boxes. >>
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right.
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any.
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any. >>
You are probably right. I am only speaking with experience on the 89s I've opened. Nice, case fresh, boxes are like bricks. If I take all the packs out and put them back in there are bulges.
The part of this group rip that really stung, and sucked the life out of me, was finding out about the 1986 Basketball break.
I participated and almost bought extra slots because of the OP's enthusiasm.
I thought I was listening to a passionate collector, instead I was listening to a salesman. I was excited for the 86 break, but got really pumped about it from listening to the OP.
I feel bad for the people who bought slots because of the hype he manufactured in that thread. The OP was not in this group rip thread, or the 86 break, to talk about cards and memorabilia, but instead to make a buck off me and countless others. That is not what this place is about. Even though I did OK on the break, I can't help but feel duped.
This is now the second time the OP has been deceitful for financial gain.
The OP opened this "group rip" with the slogan, "Who wants to break something with me?" when in actuality it meant, "Who wants to break something for me?"
I mean, just read the 1986 break here and if anyone thinks I'm out of line for feeling this way please reply here and let me know.
+1 I think you are justified in feeling the way you do especially the "listening to a salesman" part.
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any. >>
You are probably right. I am only speaking with experience on the 89s I've opened. Nice, case fresh, boxes are like bricks. If I take all the packs out and put them back in there are bulges. >>
Bulging is not necessarily an indication of a put together box but most wax boxes should feature an equal distribution of wrapper variations, at least for Topps baseball. Obviously, for cello packs that is not applicable, but the product codes on the wrappers should at least be uniform for years like 1975, where two product codes on wrappers were used.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I looked over the prices once again and the only ones that I see that are a tad high are the 81, 84 and 86 Football. Potentially the 75 Mini but that just depends on what you plan do with the pack and the condition of them. If I was a pack collector, I'm going to want pics of the above mentioned to see the condition. If I'm a breaker, the football stuff might be a bit high. However, the baseball, should those be centered, I'm coming back for more.
If I'm a box collector, I'm enthusiastic that they are FASC. You don't have to be BBCE to know what a sealed case is supposed to look like. Considering OPC is a long time dealer, I'm probably going to go out on a limb and trust him. In addition, the prices are actually nice on those.
Since I'm broke, I'm stuck on the sidelines watching
I sat on the sidelines my wife strongly suggested that I did not need more unopened at the present time. However, I will say that I am fully confident in buying any product, whether it be single, sets, or unopened packs/boxes from Tom. He has earned my trust with his openess to me personally about anything I have purchased from him. I will not speak for others, but I am very happy with all of my dealings with him.
I also sat out of this one. There wasn't really anything that I didn't already have and the pricing was more than wanted to pay for similar product. The OPC baseball boxes intrigued me, but I opted to pass. I've never dealt with Tom before, but he seems like a legitimate dealer and would feel comfortable buying from him (and I hope he has something that intrigues me in the future to try him out).
That being said, the realization of a vested interest by the organizer without transparency about the vested interest would have put a bad taste in my mouth - not because of doubt about the product, but because it just feels improper.
I want to go on the record a third time and vouch for Tom. I have bought from numerous board members and also most of the big sellers/dealers on and off ebay, and Tom's customer service is second to none. I think he's a fantastic dealer, as good as it gets, and I hope to make many future purchases from him.
<< <i>I have a question that I hope will be answered - does Tom own all of this product (i.e., did he pay for it), or is it on consignment? Thanks >>
Both the 86 Fleer basketball set break and some of the boxes offered in this break were consignments from Bounce.
Thus the undisclosed conflict of interest. The quicker the product gets sold, the quicker he gets paid. Despite this conflict of interest, again, I think it wouldn't have been a problem had it been disclosed from the start. The fact that is wasn't raises the question of why not for many, including myself.
While Bounce has been taking all of the heat here, because he's the one posting, as others have mentioned Tom obviously new the plan and shares responsibility here as well.
One of the things I really like about this community is that we will "eat our own". Even BBCE, which many on here are fanboys of (very much including myself), has been called on the carpet a couple times.
Hey guys. I have decided to sell my 1986 fleer basketball set all graded psa 9. I have consigned it with OPC baseball and Tom and I have decided to sell it by selling off random slots at 35.00 a slot which seems like a fair price based on similar breaks. It's a fun way to get a shot at a psa 9 Jordan rookie. I think this will sell out fast. Please check out the website for details and good luck if you decide to participate.
Now that would have been the appropriate way to advertise or let others know of the break. I did buy a slot in the 1986 set break and would have bought a slot if it had been described like that no problem.
It's the lack of clarity and pumping your own product that myself and others are bothered by. It's just not the way business, even baseball card collecting, should be done.
If you can't understand that then that is a cause for concern in my opinion.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Just a little strange that you consigned the set to sell, then immediately bought one of the cards from me when I won it? That, plus lack of disclosure, seems odd. I don't really know what to think. No judgement yet, because I don't really see the "angle", though perhaps there is one. I just don't get it. >>
I had 4 sets in different grades running under construction around that time. 3 of those are still going, that set was the only one I had "completed". I needed your card for an all 9 set that's about halfway together at the moment and getting harder every day.
There's no real "angle". I guess the "angle" on the break is I get the individual boxes in the form I want to collect them in, while getting rid of the others mostly at one time.
It's not like I'm getting over market on them, I didn't set the prices. From my perspective, they're honestly all underpriced (maybe not the 1975 mini box, but the case boxes for sure) based on what I see available from other sources and the utter lack of opportunities for people (including me) to be able to get involved in breaking a sealed case. But that's why I don't have anything to do with the pricing. >>
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I'm not trying to lob stones here; just trying to understand the situation.
<< <i>I agree with Doug here. Had you been up front about your vested interest in coordinating this group break, instead of starting a thread under the guise that that you had no connection to the product to be arranged for sale, I don't think people would have had a problem with that.
The issue here really has nothing to do with boxes FASC or boxes not FASC. >>
Why does that matter so much to people? I could have easily listed them in B/S/T with the condition that 15 had to sell to break them open, in the end that's no different than what's going on in the break and looks like where they're headed anyway.
You guys keep saying I have a vested interest or whatever term you want to use, but I don't get paid for anything that doesn't belong to me so it's no different than if I was just trying to sell them myself.
Tim - do you not have a vested interest in the boxes you currently have for sale in B/S/T? Of course you do, you're just taking a different route to sell it. You could probably pack them out if you want, would that really be any different than a group break? It's not in my eyes, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that view.
It's obvious a lot of you guys think I've done some terrible thing or deceived you somehow, but I would challenge you to consider what's now changed that you know all this? Nothing about the product has changed, nothing about the prices has changed.
Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
What I don't understand is why isn't the focus on the product available and the prices? That's ultimately the decision you're making and what you're getting - if it's good stuff with good prices and you want some, you participate. If you don't, you pass. That's really no different than any "buy or sell" type of transaction that occurs on the board.
What happens in the background doesn't change that decision, or at least I don't think it should.
James
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>As others have said, if you had been unfront about owning these boxes I don't know that there would have been an issue. If everything sold out you would stand to do over $13,000 in sales. So, yes, you are/were using this forum and group rip to put money in your pocket. Same thing with the 86 basketball set. If that set didn't belong to you would you have posted the set break here and pushed it like you did?
James >>
Yes, I would have. If it hadn't been mine, I would have bought a spot or two. The last two times those sets were broken slots sold out in less than 8 hours, and I missed them both.
Those things are fun, I'm pretty sure most everyone who participated had fun doing it.
<< <i>Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front? >>
If it's not important, why does it need to be said? It's circular logic.
If you think it needs to be said, doesn't that mean it actually is important?
I don't see that, but my focus is not so much on the who as it is on the what and how much. I guess I missed it.
<< <i>Come on, David, you're a decent and intelligent guy...
>>
Thank you very much
Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>Does it really matter that much that part of what's included belonged to the organizer? I just don't see why that would be important, but it seems to be the issue.
I would agree with this statement, bounce. That's why I don't understand why you wouldn't have just said so up front? Both with this group break and with the 86 Fleer basketball set break? If it's not important, why not just say so up front? >>
If it's not important, why does it need to be said? It's circular logic.
If you think it needs to be said, doesn't that mean it actually is important?
I don't see that, but my focus is not so much on the who as it is on the what and how much. I guess I missed it. >>
Realtors are required to disclose material interest in a property they are listing for sale, it's in their code of ethics. I imagine it's required by law in most states, too. There are countless other statutes surrounding conflict of interest at the corporate and municipal levels. To say it's not important is incorrect. It doesn't change a single thing about the product being sold but you do benefit by getting your money faster in a group break compared to having it sit in consignment waiting to be sold.
Do you trust OPC and his opinion on unopened material?
Do you trust the BBCE wrapping?
Do you trust the items will be shipped?
Do you like the price?
I could see some people having issues, then don't join in. However, advertising this like the OP is out to get someone is ludicrous...........there are unopened packs and sealed cases......pick on, pick a few...whatever floats your boat.
That said it is a little shady to organize a group rip of your own cases and boxes without mentioning that fact. It doesn't change the product but certainly leaves one questioning the reasons behind organizing the rip. In the end it is really on Tom at OPC Baseball since he agreed to let Bounce include his own boxes/cases in the group rip and didn't insist on having him disclose that information to those looking to participate. When someone is working to establish their reputation they probably should avoid even the semblance of impropriety.
Robb
However, the trust and loyalty of the CU Board is something that is highly sensitive. For that reason, I think it would have been wise for all parties to disclose their interest in this product break (and the '86 Fleer break). Having the CU Board as a customer base should have more cherished. I don't think it would have changed my participation in this break or the '86 Fleer break, but not having everything shared up front is going to cause me to pull out of this break (the very little I had reserved). It just doesn't feel right.
I feel bad for the time Bounce has put into the break as I think it's going to fall apart and for potential loss of trust & business with OPC Baseball from other Boardmembers.
I hadn't planned to participate, though not because I did or did not trust the break, just wasn't in the market for those particular items at the moment.
However, after reading this I'm curious, might there have been any difference in interpretation of this break if it had been posted under B/S/T instead?
<< <i>I don't think it's that big of a deal, but please take my name off what I had reserved. >>
done
<< <i>I decided not to participate in the break because the prices aren't very good for the items I was interested in (75 minis, 81 fb cello, 86 fb rack). >>
Fair enough on the 75 minis, although I would suggest the product in the last break and the product offered here are not the same thing. Those weren't FASC boxes, this one was.
However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either?
<< <i>
<< <i>I decided not to participate in the break because the prices aren't very good for the items I was interested in (75 minis, 81 fb cello, 86 fb rack). >>
Fair enough on the 75 minis, although I would suggest the product in the last break and the product offered here are not the same thing. Those weren't FASC boxes, this one was.
However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either? >>
I think what you're missing is this forums's affinity to BBCE that you and OPC (trademark infringement anyone?) don't have. The difference between the seller on this break and BBCE isn't just the logo on the cellophane, it's years building a brand by delivering great products and service. Making huge investments to set up at the National and buying millions of dollars in wax. Relationships matter and they take time to build.
You can't just swipe someones business model, run a break and expect to get the same price as a seller that's been running these things for years. People will call BS and IMO that is what you are seeing.
In what world does OPC baseball get identical prices for a group rip as BBCE?
Robb
<< <i>OPC (trademark infringement anyone?) >>
lol, I have been cringing every time I see this reference to OPC.
<< <i>However, price on 81 FB cellos are identical for identical product. So I guess that price wasn't very good last time around, either?
In what world does OPC baseball get identical prices for a group rip as BBCE?
Robb >>
there apparently doesn't seem to be one. the 81 box in the BBCE break came from...BBCE. the 81 box in this break came from...BBCE.
makes perfect sense they'd have different prices right?
tsalems1@verizon.net
Or you can call 1-774-573-1731
Robb
<< <i>Bounce since you don't seem to understand what was wrong with organizing a group rip to sell your own product it is not much of a surprise that you don't understand why people would be unwilling to pay OPC baseball the same prices as BBCE in a group rip. Reputation is worth $$s especially when the BBCE wrapped boxes are going to be opened and packs distributed individually. You trust Tom, that is great, but he has not earned my trust as an unopened buyer nor most of the folks on this board.
Robb >>
If the boxes were already wrapped by BBCE, the only real question is whether the seller "did something" to it, which is the whole point of the shrink wrap. I suppose another question could be whether the actual packs from that box are what was delivered, but there are easy ways to establish that (uploaded pictures and videos, live breaks, etc.). If it's wrapped and undisturbed, you're buying the "wrappers reputation", not the sellers.
I'm not the only one that trusts Tom. There are plenty of other people on this board and elsewhere who do and many have provided their thoughts on Tom's trustworthiness already. It's not in question. If you've never bought from him before, then you haven't given him a chance to "earn your trust". I don't know whether you have or not, but if you haven't then what you said is meaningless because it's based on a sample size of exactly zero. You'd have no basis in fact to make a judgement either way.
Robb
<< <i>I think the results of your group rip speak for themselves.
Robb >>
there wasn't enough interest in the products, regardless of anything else. "transparency" or "disclosure" wouldn't have changed the ultimate results.
but the way to prove it is to organize the same break with BBCE. that will be difficult for two reasons: first, they don't have the same product (unless it's hiding in the back and not listed on the website). second, it would be more expensive.
believe whatever you want, cast your doubts however you see fit, but in the end this was good product at good prices from trustworthy people. it's clear to me the only way to earn your trust is to let you "borrow my wallet" or sell things at significant discounts to market (including for BBCE wrapped product). that's not really selling, that's "fire selling" and I see no reason to do that.
as soon as you show me lower prices on the same items, maybe i'll reconsider. but you can't.
oh - and i'll take your silence as a "no, i've never bought anything from Tom so I have no idea, but i also have no problem calling his reputation into question based on nothing." Good work, Robb.
Not sure what fire sale prices you are imagining but the last 1986 Topps Football rack box BBCE had on their website sold for $1300 earlier this year if I remember correctly. The last BBCE wrapped 1975 mini FASC wax box sold on ebay BIN for $2850. I have been buying BBCE authenticated 86 fb racks for $42 and 75 mini packs for $75-$85 for the last 18 months heck even Fritsch has been selling 86 T fb racks for less than $67 a pop. This group rip Tom was looking for $3240 for the 75 mini box ($90 /pack) and $1608 ($67 /rack) for the 86 fb rack box. Could he get that on ebay or his website given enough time? Probably but why gauge the CU group rip participants? A successful group rip would have helped establish his reputation with a wider audience of collectors.
I have spent a fair amount of $$s on unopened over the years and have dealt with every major unopened dealer since the 90s. I am more than willing to give OPC baseball a chance but Tom needs to be selling something I am interested in and at a reasonable price. He is at peak of the market pricing which is certainly his right but not likely to get much of my business. Trust is not simply granted because you have custom shrink wrap, a web site and travel to Canada.
The group rip requires trust in the dealer. Trust that he will assign packs randomly, not cherry pick any material and fully back the product he is selling. There was a level of risk associated with this group rip that simply does not exist when using BBCE and the prices did not reflect that.
If you had been transparent about your vested interest in the rip and the prices had been right I think this group rip would have worked fine. I am hardly the only former group rip participant that failed to participate. I am simply the one replying to this thread.
Robb
I participated and almost bought extra slots because of the OP's enthusiasm.
I thought I was listening to a passionate collector, instead I was listening to a salesman. I was excited for the 86 break, but got really pumped about it from listening to the OP.
I feel bad for the people who bought slots because of the hype he manufactured in that thread. The OP was not in this group rip thread, or the 86 break, to talk about cards and memorabilia, but instead to make a buck off me and countless others. That is not what this place is about. Even though I did OK on the break, I can't help but feel duped.
This is now the second time the OP has been deceitful for financial gain.
The OP opened this "group rip" with the slogan, "Who wants to break something with me?" when in actuality it meant, "Who wants to break something for me?"
I mean, just read the 1986 break here and if anyone thinks I'm out of line for feeling this way please reply here and let me know.
<< <i>DPeck, I agree with what you are saying. However if the item you are buying is FASC, then the argument becomes "Do you trust the wrapper of the box that it came from a sealed case?" I bought the items that were labeled FASC, we'll see how they come out as I expect to bust at least one of them. >>
I was just asking a question. If you could tell by how the packs are situated in the box then it would be easy to tell if they had been searched.
Personally I think you can feel good about your purchase. I have dealt with Tom and spoken to him on the phone at length in the past and I think he is serious about trying to build a card business and to do so you must build a good reputation. Obviously playing a role in situations like this can help do that if buyers are satisfied.
Good luck with your boxes.
<< <i>
<< <i>DPeck, I agree with what you are saying. However if the item you are buying is FASC, then the argument becomes "Do you trust the wrapper of the box that it came from a sealed case?" I bought the items that were labeled FASC, we'll see how they come out as I expect to bust at least one of them. >>
I was just asking a question. If you could tell by how the packs are situated in the box then it would be easy to tell if they had been searched.
Personally I think you can feel good about your purchase. I have dealt with Tom and spoken to him on the phone at length in the past and I think he is serious about trying to build a card business and to do so you must build a good reputation. Obviously playing a role in situations like this can help do that if buyers are satisfied.
Good luck with your boxes. >>
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right.
<< <i>
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any. >>
You are probably right. I am only speaking with experience on the 89s I've opened. Nice, case fresh, boxes are like bricks. If I take all the packs out and put them back in there are bulges.
I participated and almost bought extra slots because of the OP's enthusiasm.
I thought I was listening to a passionate collector, instead I was listening to a salesman. I was excited for the 86 break, but got really pumped about it from listening to the OP.
I feel bad for the people who bought slots because of the hype he manufactured in that thread. The OP was not in this group rip thread, or the 86 break, to talk about cards and memorabilia, but instead to make a buck off me and countless others. That is not what this place is about. Even though I did OK on the break, I can't help but feel duped.
This is now the second time the OP has been deceitful for financial gain.
The OP opened this "group rip" with the slogan, "Who wants to break something with me?" when in actuality it meant, "Who wants to break something for me?"
I mean, just read the 1986 break here and if anyone thinks I'm out of line for feeling this way please reply here and let me know.
+1 I think you are justified in feeling the way you do especially the "listening to a salesman" part.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
I can tell, most of the time, if packs have been removed and put back in the box. It's similar to when you buy something from a store, open the product, then try to put it back in the box...just ends up not fitting right. >>
I'm not sure that's true with unopened boxes. Vending boxes, yes. Wax, cello and rack? I think you can remove the packs and return them to the box without a way to tell they had been removed. There may be a few exceptions to this but I'm not aware of any. >>
You are probably right. I am only speaking with experience on the 89s I've opened. Nice, case fresh, boxes are like bricks. If I take all the packs out and put them back in there are bulges. >>
Bulging is not necessarily an indication of a put together box but most wax boxes should feature an equal distribution of wrapper variations, at least for Topps baseball. Obviously, for cello packs that is not applicable, but the product codes on the wrappers should at least be uniform for years like 1975, where two product codes on wrappers were used.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If I'm a box collector, I'm enthusiastic that they are FASC. You don't have to be BBCE to know what a sealed case is supposed to look like. Considering OPC is a long time dealer, I'm probably going to go out on a limb and trust him. In addition, the prices are actually nice on those.
Since I'm broke, I'm stuck on the sidelines watching
Jmaciu's Collection
That being said, the realization of a vested interest by the organizer without transparency about the vested interest would have put a bad taste in my mouth - not because of doubt about the product, but because it just feels improper.
Rhonda Rousey closer
Why does boxing still exist when there is UFC
No chance after this I trust anything but BBCE
<< <i>I have a question that I hope will be answered - does Tom own all of this product (i.e., did he pay for it), or is it on consignment? Thanks >>
Both the 86 Fleer basketball set break and some of the boxes offered in this break were consignments from Bounce.
Thus the undisclosed conflict of interest. The quicker the product gets sold, the quicker he gets paid. Despite this conflict of interest, again, I think it wouldn't have been a problem had it been disclosed from the start. The fact that is wasn't raises the question of why not for many, including myself.
While Bounce has been taking all of the heat here, because he's the one posting, as others have mentioned Tom obviously new the plan and shares responsibility here as well.
One of the things I really like about this community is that we will "eat our own". Even BBCE, which many on here are fanboys of (very much including myself), has been called on the carpet a couple times.
And that's the way it should work in my opinion.
Snorto~
Now that would have been the appropriate way to advertise or let others know of the break. I did buy a slot in the 1986 set break and would have bought a slot if it had been described like that no problem.
It's the lack of clarity and pumping your own product that myself and others are bothered by. It's just not the way business, even baseball card collecting, should be done.
If you can't understand that then that is a cause for concern in my opinion.