PWCC X-MAS Packs

packCollector · March 10, 2015 12:18AM

PWCC XMAS PACKS

I know he says bid accordingly as to the originality of packaging but you would think that someone who does so much volume and is supposed to be a highly respected seller would have some integrity as it is a known fact that these were made in the last couple years, especially the 70's packs. Maybe the 50's are from mark murphy's original scam but that is also highly unlikely and those are also probably recent fabrications.

I would think any consigment seller would stay as far away from this fake stuff as possible

dtkk49a · March 10, 2015 12:25AM

Wow. Very surprised PWCC is selling these racks. The bids on each rack are crazy.

timpatg · March 10, 2015 12:47AM

And every pack conveniently has at least one HOFer on the front, most with multiple HOFers.

Also love that the snowflakes are used as a reason for the 1950s and 60s to be authentic but the same wrapping is used for the 1970s packs which are known fakes and poor attempts.

Nascar360 · March 10, 2015 2:19AM

WOW, If I saw 50's to 70's with the same header card I would run for the hills.

Probstein123 · March 10, 2015 2:27AM

nothing wrong with selling these and his description is accurate

timpatg · March 10, 2015 2:45AM

<< nothing wrong with selling these and his description is accurate >>

Nothing wrong with selling fake packs? His description admits that authenticity is at the very least questionable for one decade but uses the same reasoning to justify a different decade being legit.

KbKards · March 10, 2015 2:54AM

I would not describe the description as accurate. An accurate description would attempt to explain the uncertainty with the age and origin of the item. It also mentions that it has not been professionally authenticated, which gives the impression with the newbies that these things attract, that it could be professionally authenticated.

Nicely conditioned '55 Topps Rack Pack. The cards are authentic and appear to be conservatively mid-to-high grade. Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.

Nascar360 · March 10, 2015 3:00AM

"Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated."

PWCC Auctions has 3949 listings right now with 3,378 having PSA in the name, BGS has 278 and SGC has 104. So that leaves 189 out of 3949 auctions without a professionally authenticated company name in the title.

That's like less than 5% of their listings. If I was them I would have stayed away from them just as an integrity issue.

mikelowell25 · March 10, 2015 3:48AM

I'm not only surprised Brent would accept these on consignment but also surprised he doesn't know it's "santa claus", not "clause" or that it's a "christmas wreath", not "reef".

Maybe he was thinking about the Tim Allen movie while scuba diving in Australia right before he wrote the description

packCollector · March 10, 2015 4:06AM

<< nothing wrong with selling these and his description is accurate >>

Hey rick, so if I package a few of these up with my vegetable sealer I can send them to you to list in the same way and you won't feel too bad about screwing your buyers? I'll be sure to trim the cards inside to look nm and put a star on top. not too bad, it will cost me about 2 bucks in supplies and you will able to get me incredible profits.

you better go hire another employee because I can already see the flood of business coming your way

Probstein123 · March 10, 2015 4:14AM

we've sold these many times, the cards are real, we state that the cards inside are a mix of EX to EX-MT , I don't recall getting any returns on these....

cincyredlegs · March 10, 2015 4:14AM

<< nothing wrong with selling these and his description is accurate >>

Why doesn't this statement shock me in the least!!!!!!!!

The only way you can accurately describe these are "These are not authentic rack packs from the mfg. These are fabricated packs from a 3rd party. Bid at your own risk." Anything other than this is not ethically correct in my opinion.

BTW, nothing surprises me anymore.

Mark

KbKards · March 10, 2015 4:26AM

A seller with a more accurate description

There's a good chance this one isn't from the 50's-60's

I wonder if they take suggestions. I'd like to get one with 1984 Fleer Updates and a Clemens Rookie on top.

80sOPC · March 10, 2015 4:35AM

I'm surprised folks get so worked up about this. Imagine how crazy you guys would go if the person authenticating PSA packs was also a large seller of packs. Or if anyone ever found a way to get fake cello's with stars on top into slabs. Or if cards that were from cases with cracked seals were sold as FASC to a bunch of members here.

Good thing there is so much integrity in the unopened space that we can worry about Christmas racks.

MULLINS5 · March 10, 2015 4:45AM

<< I'm surprised folks get so worked up about this. Imagine how crazy you guys would go if the person authenticating PSA packs was also a large seller of packs. Or if anyone ever found a way to get fake cello's with stars on top into slabs. Or if cards that were from cases with cracked seals were sold as FASC to a bunch of members here.

Good thing there is so much integrity in the unopened space that we can worry about Christmas racks. >>

Bah! Humbug!

ahkmedbinladen · March 10, 2015 4:45AM

"nothing wrong with selling these and his description is accurate"

Im not surprised by that statement either....Consider the source. Sell anything and everything as long as you make a buck...Right ???
Don't let integrity, values , and reputation get in the way of some cash.

Dialj · March 10, 2015 4:57AM

I wonder if they take suggestions. I'd like to get one with 1984 Fleer Updates and a Clemens Rookie on top.

This is one of the best comments I've read in a long time. I'm wanting a '54 one with Aaron, Banks, and Kaline as well as '55 with Clemente, Koufax, and Killebrew, all on top.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 5:14AM

Rick, Probstein123 - you got to be careful. You have a solid reputation but you don't want to back up these COMPLETELY FAKE Christmas Racks that have plagued the unopened hobby ever since Murphy, aka The Baseball Card Kid, foolishly endorsed these pathetic excuses for a legit unopened product!!!

Probstein123 · March 10, 2015 5:21AM

COMPLETELY FAKE Christmas Racks that have plagued the unopened hobby ever since Murphy, aka The Baseball Card Kid, foolishly endorsed these pathetic excuses for a legit unopened product!!
==> Brent writes : The cards are authentic and appear to be conservatively mid-to-high grade. Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.

to me that is clear, but perhaps thats cause I know what they are, he is saying the cards are mid grade....that should be enough to communicate what people are getting, mid grade cards ...could he go farther, perhaps yes, but to me , its clear
he's not saying MINT cards inside....

timpatg · March 10, 2015 5:27AM

<< COMPLETELY FAKE Christmas Racks that have plagued the unopened hobby ever since Murphy, aka The Baseball Card Kid, foolishly endorsed these pathetic excuses for a legit unopened product!!
==> Brent writes : The cards are authentic and appear to be conservatively mid-to-high grade. Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.

to me that is clear, but perhaps thats cause I know what they are, he is saying the cards are mid grade....that should be enough to communicate what people are getting, mid grade cards ...could he go farther, perhaps yes, but to me , its clear
he's not saying MINT cards inside.... >>

So if I make up a box of fake 1980 cellos with Rickey Henderson on top of each one it's ok as long as I say the cards all appear to be mid to high grade?

baz518 · March 10, 2015 5:32AM

<< he is saying the cards are mid grade >>

Pretty sure mid-to-high grade means mid to high grade cards, including mid-grade, high-grade and anything in between. Could be wrong though. And a trimmed or altered card might be considered authentic to some, but not to all.

TNP777 · March 10, 2015 5:35AM

Many peeps are treading on extremely shaky ground in this thread. The bam hammer is probably going to swing.

Nikklos · March 10, 2015 5:53AM

Anything short of the description stating "These rack packs were fabricated by a third-party" is disingenuous.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 5:55AM

The BAM hammer. What the F does THAT mean? Bottom line is, no one is questioning if the cards are real, EX or ExMt..... these are being sold as factory sealed, authentic unopened rack packs and they could be farther from that fact. PSA will NOT grade them, hell, even GAI wouldn't grade them and THEY GRADE EVERYTHING! What does that tell you??? Hello..... wake up people!!!!

Probstein123 · March 10, 2015 5:56AM

<< 

<< COMPLETELY FAKE Christmas Racks that have plagued the unopened hobby ever since Murphy, aka The Baseball Card Kid, foolishly endorsed these pathetic excuses for a legit unopened product!!
==> Brent writes : The cards are authentic and appear to be conservatively mid-to-high grade. Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.

to me that is clear, but perhaps thats cause I know what they are, he is saying the cards are mid grade....that should be enough to communicate what people are getting, mid grade cards ...could he go farther, perhaps yes, but to me , its clear
he's not saying MINT cards inside.... >>

So if I make up a box of fake 1980 cellos with Rickey Henderson on top of each one it's ok as long as I say the cards all appear to be mid to high grade? >>

Probstein123 · March 10, 2015 5:57AM

So if I make up a box of fake 1980 cellos with Rickey Henderson on top of each one it's ok as long as I say the cards all appear to be mid to high grade?
==> wouldn't these cards be MINT only ?

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 5:59AM

Rick, you keep digging deeper and possibly giving up some future QUALITY consignments.... best opt out now before you do any more damage! Just sayin'....

LarkinCollector · March 10, 2015 6:00AM

<< The BAM hammer. What the F does THAT mean? >>

Forum Rules See rules 1, 4, & 7.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 6:03AM

Sue Me! I'm just tired of all the Xmas Rack crap and how distorted the truth is about these backroom reproductions. It needs to get out. Anyone who owns or buys them are idiots. Education is a good thing.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 6:04AM

"F" stands for fudge.....WTF!?!?

thirtytwo · March 10, 2015 6:08AM

JWall037 · March 10, 2015 6:29AM

<< Rick, you keep digging deeper and possibly giving up some future QUALITY consignments.... best opt out now before you do any more damage! Just sayin'.... >>

I think Rick's reputation will be just fine. As for Brent, he is not an expert on rack packs but his description for me at least, is accurate. I know what he is selling. In a perfect world he could have put these rack packs have been fabricated.

I'm not sure why everyone is having an issue with this. Wasn't it just a few months ago that a MAJOR wax authenticator (not saying any names) "fabricated" 4-boxes of 1979 Topps Baseball boxes and wrapped them "FROM A SEALED CASE" when in fact they were not? Not too many here had a problem with that. Now did they...

dennis07 · March 10, 2015 6:41AM

Here's a link to a previous discussion on Christmas racks a couple of months ago.

Previous discussion

TNP777 · March 10, 2015 6:42AM

<< Not too many here had a problem with that. Now did they... >>

Heh. Just like Ron Burgundy (the movie character, not the poster), that was kind of a big deal around here.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 6:46AM

FAKE packs are everyone's problem.
Sadly, even the pack authentication 'experts' get duped and can only offer their opinion. The fakes are getting VERY good so it's tough being a professional pack authenticator, especially one us collectors rely on. But, these TOTALLY FAKE XMAS racks are in a different class all by themselves that boggles the mind why collectors continue to buy them. (Do you guys get the feeling I am NOT a fan??)

Text

sportscardtheory · March 10, 2015 6:47AM

I would think that if the packs were legitimate, the seller wouldn't even garner the nerve to "guess" the condition of the cards inside and state it in the description.

LuvOldPacks · March 10, 2015 6:50AM

Thanks for sharing..... it's a good read.

Slabbed · March 10, 2015 6:54AM

They should note in their description as novelty item.

RynoandBo · March 10, 2015 8:33AM

I was highly disappointed in PWCC in February when he sold empty wax pack wrappers from highly sought after 1980's basketball (1980, 1986, 1987, 1988). They sell such high end graded cards, why go to this low level of integrity? After seeing those wrappers, the Chrismas racks do not surprise me.

Brick · March 10, 2015 9:17AM

These Xmas packs remind me of the commercials for "Genuine faux diamonds."

brendanb438 · March 10, 2015 9:26AM

The cards are authentic and appear to be conservatively mid-to-high grade. Please bid accordingly with regards to the originality of packaging which has not been professionally authenticated.

How is this statement anywhere near the same as saying these are known fakes. You are leading people to believe these packs may be real, just that they have not been professionally authenticated. The reality is they have been professionally denounced across the collecting community as FAKE and made well after the fact.

BLUEJAYWAY · March 10, 2015 9:37AM

<< PWCC XMAS PACKS

I know he says bid accordingly as to the originality of packaging but you would think that someone who does so much volume and is supposed to be a highly respected seller would have some integrity as it is a known fact that these were made in the last couple years, especially the 70's packs. Maybe the 50's are from mark murphy's original scam but that is also highly unlikely and those are also probably recent fabrications.

I would think any consigment seller would stay as far away from this fake stuff as possible >>

Can you please elaborate on this "Mark Murphy original scam" you speak of. I came into the hobby after this situation and was curious as to the facts of this situation. You may PM me if you'd rather with the facts. Thank you.

JMDVM · March 10, 2015 10:36AM

<< PWCC XMAS PACKS

I know he says bid accordingly as to the originality of packaging but you would think that someone who does so much volume and is supposed to be a highly respected seller would have some integrity as it is a known fact that these were made in the last couple years, especially the 70's packs. Maybe the 50's are from mark murphy's original scam but that is also highly unlikely and those are also probably recent fabrications.

I would think any consigment seller would stay as far away from this fake stuff as possible >>

Follow the money.....and they were in the last auction too

Dpeck100 · March 10, 2015 10:47AM

<< 

<< Not too many here had a problem with that. Now did they... >>

Heh. Just like Ron Burgundy (the movie character, not the poster), that was kind of a big deal around here.
>>

That was a good thread.

seebelow · March 10, 2015 1:24PM

I seem to recall a lot of people had a problem with the whole mess. Could be my memory. So much back and forth Ive forgotten who took what side etc but there were def emotions running high. Almost instantaneously.
The thread is probably long gone.

The Mark Murphy deal i don't recall. Seems straightforward though. Although issues on the internet rarely are. Can anyone fill us in or what positive lesson could be taken away from the whole thing?

vols1 · March 10, 2015 1:47PM

I have my suspicions about the ones that say 'From Santa Claus to eBay'

Tabe · March 10, 2015 2:04PM

The wording in the listing is almost exactly like what you see in auctions for fake pre-war cards. Disappointing to see people even coming close to defending the description.

seebelow · March 10, 2015 2:20PM

you're right. the description screams deception...c.y.a.

packCollector · March 10, 2015 10:46PM

Mark Murphy found the original group of Christmas Racks. He sold them as being made in the time of issue, don't recall if he said by topps but I am pretty sure that was the interpretation. He was touting it as the find of the century or something like that.

The reality that came out later is they were probably made in the 60's or early 70's by a third party. These packs I don;t have a problem with if they are described that way, " a novelty pack created by a third party in the 60's or early 70's. Thes Mark Murphy packs ranged in years from 53-63 ONLY.

The packs that PWCC is selling is a pure scam. Someone took the Christmas Pack idea and started packaging them up in the last couple years. They are purely fabricated, nothing more than if I put 12 cards in saran wrap and started selling them as cello packs. I don;t think anyone would accept that. I also don't think consigment sellers would accept fake cellos or resealed packs without clearly stating, " This pack is a resealed and searched pack and not original, you are getting some cards, a wrapper and a piece of gum."

yankeeno7 · March 11, 2015 12:41AM

There are also differences in the cellophane being used and the hanger cards from the so called re-wraps vs the more fake and more recent re-wraps.

telephoto1 · March 11, 2015 2:15AM

This reminds me of the "unsearched bank wrapped rolls" of wheat cents on ebay that just happen to have better coins on both ends (and garbage in the middle). Same scam, different product.

PWCC X-MAS Packs

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