<< <i>Just because the tail on a Buffalo nickel is one of the highest points of the design doesn't mean it wouldn't necessarily strike up. I've seen more than a few of this design with a split tail and noticeably incomplete detail on the Bison's head and shoulder. The causes of incomplete detailing are many. So, once again, I don't think the designation of a split tail has any real meaning at all. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of any of these simplistic terms when it comes to the amount of strike detail on any coin, and that would include full steps, head, bands, torch, bell lines or whatever when another part of the design is or can be weak (a prime example is a SLQ that may have a full head but 1/3 of the shield missing, although to qualify that for this series the FH designation on these has been around since at least the '40s.) I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype.
I think a much more sensible and meaningful qualifier would be perhaps the percentage of a full strike-a simple 90% FS, FS90, 95% FS, FS100 or whatever.[/q
As this is a new and exciting concept we certainly welcome any feedback. You make a fair point and we'll definitely consider it.
<< <i>I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype. >>
No offense, but that is kind of an ridiculous assertion.
It is NOT just hype when there are innumerable examples of collectors paying big bucks for these "simple hypes".
People will pay $20,000 & up for FBL 1953-S Franklins.
$20,000 is a whole popcorn bowl full of hype!
BUT, that kind of money is reserved for PCGS and NGC certified examples. It is very doubtful these same collectors would pay any significant premium for a 90% MACge coin.
As Wondercoin's post implies, there are a without doubt number of 90% FBL 1953-S's to be had. Historically, with a few exceptions, they have not brought significant premiums.
Whether or not MACge changes this remains to be seen. I for one am doubtful.
<< <i>Curious, the dealer who stickers his own coin has had the same exact coins for sale on eBay (and elsewhere) for 1+ years now, then stickers all of his own inventory, and then doubles the prices (in some instances, more than 2x).
Has anyone bought one of his $400 modern coins for $900-$1200 (just an example based on some of his coins in my watch list) and can you tell a difference?
Curious if these MACge coins are head and shoulders above their similarly graded non MACge counterparts (because his premiums are not 5%-10%, they are 200%-400%).
Thank you in advance if you have bought these MACge coins before and can share your feedback.... >>
Check completed sales on eBay. >>
Because I was bored and had nothing better to do this evening, I actually looked. Every single specimen was a BIN and not an auction. If the MAC sticker makes them valuable, then they should hold their own in a no reserve auction, no? Anyone can click a BIN button on eBay; that doesn't make the coin worth that much.
It also looks like your standards are already looser than NGC who refused to apply its DPL (DMPL) designation and awarded this modern a PL.
<< <i>I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype. >>
No offense, but that is kind of an ridiculous assertion.
It is NOT just hype when there are innumerable examples of collectors paying big bucks for these "simple hypes".
People will pay $20,000 & up for FBL 1953-S Franklins.
$20,000 is a whole popcorn bowl full of hype!
BUT, that kind of money is reserved for PCGS and NGC certified examples. It is very doubtful these same collectors would pay any significant premium for a 90% MACge coin.
As Wondercoin's post implies, there are a without doubt number of 90% FBL 1953-S's to be had. Historically, with a few exceptions, they have not brought significant premiums.
Whether or not MACge changes this remains to be seen. I for one am doubtful. >>
Still hype IMHO-especially when other details of the design are missing. Why do collectors pay this kind of money for these things? To get the complete rendition of the design as it was originally intended by the designer? Or just for the rarity of a tiny part of the design promoted by some astute hypester? Most of these designations, with the exception of the aforementioned SLQ, have come along in the last 35-40 years if I'm not mistaken. Full steps on Jeffersons may have been around for longer but I sure can't remember any mention "split bands" etc etc when I first started collecting in 1961. These are now set in stone, however, so they're not gonna go away.
Now I can and WOULD pay a significant premium in the coins I collect for a coin designated as a FS (full strike.) My statement about designating that term should apply to all slabbing companies, not just the subject of the thread but I'm sure it will never happen probably because of the time it would take them to do it.
Could work , and definitely would not automatically dismiss it and could see a possible value. Time will tell, we all had some pretty negative opinions of the sticker service that shall not be named.
Georgiacop50. The interesting thing might be if these near FBL coins that cost me a few hundred dollars each move up to thousands of dollars as dealers or collectors seek to pick up these near FBL gems at prices a lot closer to the $5, 000 being offered. They may also be harder to locate these days as compared to when I was gobbling them up years ago.
As for Wash. Quarters, I have litte interest to no interest in full beaks, but that is just me personally. Others might Find that designation interesting.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
None that I know of for full beaks. Have heard of some pursuing full split tail Buffalo Nickels. However, consider that there really weren't people collecting full head SLQs, full step Jeffersons until maybe 30 or 40 years ago. Full banded Roosies are still pretty new. Everything has to start from somewhere. I, for one, applaud the entrepreneurship of MACge and it will be interesting to see if this takes traction. As usual, rough crowd here for the most part.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
None that I know of for full beaks. Have heard of some pursuing full split tail Buffalo Nickels. However, consider that there really weren't people collecting full head SLQs, full step Jeffersons until maybe 30 or 40 years ago. Full banded Roosies are still pretty new. Everything has to start from somewhere. I, for one, applaud the entrepreneurship of MACge and it will be interesting to see if this takes traction. As usual, rough crowd here for the most part. >>
Thanks, I appreciate the support. I expected a tough crowd, but not quite like this.
<< <i>Could work , and definitely would not automatically dismiss it and could see a possible value. Time will tell, we all had some pretty negative opinions of the sticker service that shall not be named. >>
the dichotomy is greater comparing the 2. I myself was not a fan of the leading sticker service when they entered the market but the market has accepted them and they have a ton of real credibility the principals have decades upon decades of positive experience. They have a high level of credibility. This firm has shown a high level of ethics and consistency and has a definitive and important place in numismatics. They have earned that respect and the market is clear as well.
the other sticker firm in question has not only sued collectors for expressing opinions but has not been credible in many respects based on actual apple to apple comparisons - sorry there is a direct connection here and it is one and the same just renamed and recycled. I as a collector and in my own opinion would remove the sticker of this firm on any coin I bought as a buyer the coin is suspect being sold with the sticker in question and would be less valuable considering the firm in question in my opinion. The market will speak on this they sure did on the earlier inception of this firm very clear and the collecting community has not forgotten there past.
<< <i>Could work , and definitely would not automatically dismiss it and could see a possible value. Time will tell, we all had some pretty negative opinions of the sticker service that shall not be named. >>
the dichotomy is greater comparing the 2. I myself was not a fan of the leading sticker service when they entered the market but the market has accepted them and they have a ton of real credibility the principals have decades upon decades of positive experience. They have a high level of credibility. This firm has shown a high level of ethics and consistency and has a definitive and important place in numismatics. They have earned that respect and the market is clear as well.
the other sticker firm in question has not only sued collectors for expressing opinions but has not been credible in many respects based on actual apple to apple comparisons - sorry there is a direct connection here and it is one and the same just renamed and recycled. >>
I understand your frustrations with Mr. Hager, however as I stated earlier is not his firm, it's mine. This is a completely different concept woth different principles. I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals.
<< <i>I understand your frustrations with Mr. Hager, however as I stated earlier is not his firm, it's mine. This is a completely different concept woth different principles. I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals. >>
The website lists Mr. Hagar first and as Founder. What do you mean you (who ever you are) hired Mr. Hagar?
Who actually runs/owns the business? Who actually reviews coins for consideration?
It is not rational to expect the membership to trust this new MACGE service when it is steeped in anonymity (no person's name associated other than Mr. Hagar's), and then using Mr. Hagar as the poster child of this firm's service is just one big head-scratcher.
For all of Mr. Hagar's talents, many folks here feel he uses them for disreputable purposes. Associating one's firm with him is, as I said, a big head-scratcher...
As I stated earlier I am the president with the financial backing of Mike Rubin. We strongly discourage these appalling ad hominem attacks against Mr. Hager, as we are completely behind this company and will support it and the people in it. We believe that MACGE can bring tremendous value and benefit to the hobby. Although some of the designations that we have created may be a bit puzzling to some, they create a whole new exciting sector within the industry.
As I understand the previous issues with Mr Hagar, the argument put forth was that it didn't matter that many coins were severely overgraded by market standards because nobody could agree to precisely what the standard was...which raises the question of what standard you intend to have him grade to and how close that is to current market standards. All valid concerns and questions, methinks.
And...whether right or wrong, a company is judged by the actions of its employees. All of them. A few friends here got dragged through the legal system by your employee - 'tude and splitting hairs is not going to get us to forget that fact.
I say we all stand up and start peeling the stickers off !!!! Let's go sticker free !!!!! In fact next table I go up to I'm going to look for a sticker slab and say I'll buy that one right now sir, just peel that stupid thing off first , lol
Us as consumers are the fools that buy into these sticker companies, I know people that brag about a stickereed coin and I say did you forget how to grade a coin. I think PCGS is all we need , says it's real , gives me a grade they think it is and also slabs the coin for protection.
I think people should stop being sheep and stop this stupid stuff
<< <i>As I understand the previous issues with Mr Hagar, the argument put forth was that it didn't matter that many coins were severely overgraded by market standards because nobody could agree to precisely what the standard was...which raises the question of what standard you intend to have him grade to and how close that is to current market standards. All valid concerns and questions, methinks.
And...whether right or wrong, a company is judged by the actions of its employees. All of them. A few friends here got dragged through the legal system by your employee - 'tude and splitting hairs is not going to get us to forget that fact. >>
As to your point of overgrading, I think it would be impossible for any company today to consistently overgrade coins due to the sheer amount of information that is easily available on the Internet which wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago. There are pictures of the tens of millions of coins that have been accurately graded which anyone can look at. Anybody with a computer can see if someone's standards match up to the rest of the industry without any difficulty. Besides for the fact that we will only be putting stickers on coins that have already been graded by the two major grading services which are accepted by the entire industry.
As far as Mr. Hager is concerned, what ever accusations were thrown back and forth between parties, the disagreement was settled in an out of court settlement in favor of Mr. Hager. That was 10 years ago, if you wish to remain stuck there that's your choice. If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company.
<< <i>Us as consumers are the fools that buy into these sticker companies, I know people that brag about a stickereed coin and I say did you forget how to grade a coin. I think PCGS is all we need , says it's real , gives me a grade they think it is and also slabs the coin for protection.
I think people should stop being sheep and stop this stupid stuff >>
Couldn't agree more. Bottom line-I don't think this latest scheme will go anywhere-few care and fewer (if any) will participate, especially with some of the problems with past ethics by one of the main entities. The only ones at risk will be newbies and I hope the rest of us will educate them. That said, this post has been an interesting read.
<< <i>As far as Mr. Hager is concerned, what ever accusations were thrown back and forth between parties, the disagreement was settled in an out of court settlement in favor of Mr. Hager. That was 10 years ago, if you wish to remain stuck there that's your choice. If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense.
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense. >>
Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers.
To me, I think credibility is key in this industry. PCGS had and has it. NGC had and has it. CAC, and the founders, had and have it. I stop there.
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense. >>
Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers.
To me, I think credibility is key in this industry. PCGS had and has it. NGC had and has it. CAC, and the founders, had and have it. I stop there. >>
I'll agree with 2 out of the 3 and add ANACS, I haven't ever had any problems with ANACS, nice coins!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers. >>
Aye, but if there was no hobby, there would be no businesses or potential suckers.
---
@MACGE1 - You need to fix some editing errors in your "What Can MAC Do For Me" PDF on your website. Some of your designations seem to have changed names so many times that the titles don't match what they're called in the body of the copy anymore. :-)
It's hard to get excited about this project after watching the video. I'm not quite sure why but I was waxing poetic between Breaking Bad and Doogie Howser....................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
Who are you planning to make all this money off of? Seems like there's quite enough marketing fluff built into the rare coin pricing structure already.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Late to the post. This reply from the president of the sticker company in question causes me concern. " We strongly discourage these appalling ad hominem attacks against Mr. Hager" . Veiled threats are how things started last time.
No matter what you say Mr. President, those you choose to work with will have an absolute effect on your business reputation. Your statement of not caring about he who shall not be named is akin to saying you would hire or work with a person addicted to drugs and make them the pharmacist in your pharmacy. This line of thought does not sit well with many who are better educated in the hobby and industry. If you can not see this or understand the concern then that would directly be a reflection of yourself.
I have for a long time been a proponent of a 1-100% scale on coins to represent the coins quality. Adding more stickers to coins is just another ploy to make money on money that has already been spent. I personally feel that the stickers on already graded coins is disrespectful towards the company who grade that coin, in essence saying that what they have determined is in question. I do understand that for the grade there will be variance, this is up to the buyer to determine and part of the hobby. By putting more and more stickers on coins and calling into question the grading of coins the hobby/knowledge gathering part of coin collecting is being destroyed. If coin collecting is nothing but for profit for a person they should just invest in raw metals as the hobby will soon be like that if things keep heading the way they are.
I recall reading one regular poster here discussing how he collected 1953-S Franklins that were close to full bell lines. That makes some sense to me; given the fantastic premium given for 53-S FBLs, it seems reasonable that someday there may be extra recognition among collectors for coins that are *almost* there. One might argue the same for nearly full bands on a 1945 dime. (Or, one might argue that these designations were kinda contrived in the first place.)
Now Franklins can get a 90% FBL sticker. I've gotta wonder: is it really wise to quantify a detail so precisely? CAC, for example -- which is clearly the inspiration for this effort -- accepts coins in the middle and top-thirds for the grade. (And they don't do designations, as I understand.) I'm comfortable with thirds. And I'm comfortable with designations. A coin is either FBL, or it ain't. If there is any question, a TPG can usually settle it. Now, whether a coin is one tenth of the way from a striking designation seems a lot more dicey. It makes me want to get out a ruler and check for myself.
And what really unsettles me, even more than looking at a set of lines that don't look within reasonable range of 90% full and being told that they are, is looking at a 1953 Philly Franklin that's advertised as a 1953-S. I can't blame someone for trying to get $3,000 for a coin that they think is special (if it really was a 53-S, not a 53 which can be had in FBL for one-third that money), but if they're going to do the whole 90% sticker thing they probably should not miss things like that.
Heck, I think if they're going to ride PCGS' and CAC's coattails like they are so blatantly doing with that offering -- to the unsophisticated collector, those two brands will confer legitimacy to the other one stuck on there -- they should just put up that material for bid, not fixed price sales. Might as well start with Heritage. After all, those other two brands were able to pull it off.
And what really unsettles me, even more than looking at a set of lines that don't look within reasonable range of 90% full and being told that they are, is looking at a 1953 Philly Franklin that's advertised as a 1953-S. I can't blame someone for trying to get $3,000 for a coin that they think is special (if it really was a 53-S, not a 53 which can be had in FBL for one-third that money), but if they're going to do the whole 90% sticker thing they probably should not miss things like that. >>
It's even worse than that. One of the pictures is of a 1963 Franklin!
I've been following some MACge stickered coins on eBay and none of the ones I'm watching have sold.
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time.
<< <i>I've been following some MACge stickered coins on eBay and none of the ones I'm watching have sold.
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time. >>
Check completed sales on eBay. We've sold about 30k in the past 2 months.
This post has nothing to do with this grading company, but rather my personal frustration with the prevalence of all these emerging 'stickered' companies ......
The 'slab' of the future..........
PGIP: Professionally Graded In Peru
IDU: It's Definitely Undergraded
LGTM: Looks Good To Me
YCL: You Can't Lose.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
The actual amount of self-stickered inventory sold by macabletrading in the last sixty days appears to be only around 6 or 7k, including that 1953 Franklin 90% FBL that is now in current listings as a 53-S.
I noticed that nickel too. It's their success story.
<< <i>I've been following some MACge stickered coins on eBay and none of the ones I'm watching have sold.
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time. >>
Check completed sales on eBay. We've sold about 30k in the past 2 months.
This is a $140 coin with out any steps, and doesn't exist with 5FS. This coin exhibits 4FS, and was sold for $520 due to its rarity. >>
WHAT?
1. There are over 100 1975 FS PCGS examples graded 65 and 66 and a lone 67. 2. Your coin is listed at $200 not $140 in PCGS Coinfacts. 3. Your coin is Pop 2 coin that is a Registry chasers dream. I think you sold it WAY to cheap!! Your little sticker had nothing to do with it. You probably left a lot of money on the table. If you would have done a no reserve auction I believe you would have realized a LOT more based on the PCGS MS67 grade and the Pop 2 figure. I bet the new owner peeled the sticker off the second they rec'd it!! But you'll never know if your sticker is worth one thin dime with only overpriced Buy it Now auctions. But in this case, you sold yourself short, or should I say you sold a Pop 2 PCGS coin short of its true value.
If there is a market for these premium (but not designated) strikes, I would be very happy!
I have 7 1963-D nickels in MS64. I went through an original canvas bag of 4000 coins and sent the best ones hoping for FS designations (as a 64FS is a $1000 coin). However, I was 0-7. The nickels are 99% of the way to FS and I'm honestly shocked that ALL of them are not FS. Perhaps with a different Date/MM combination they would have been more generous.
Anyway, MACGE, please let me know if you'd be interested. What do you think these should be worth?
Comments
This. Just another marketing scheme.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Just because the tail on a Buffalo nickel is one of the highest points of the design doesn't mean it wouldn't necessarily strike up. I've seen more than a few of this design with a split tail and noticeably incomplete detail on the Bison's head and shoulder. The causes of incomplete detailing are many. So, once again, I don't think the designation of a split tail has any real meaning at all. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of any of these simplistic terms when it comes to the amount of strike detail on any coin, and that would include full steps, head, bands, torch, bell lines or whatever when another part of the design is or can be weak (a prime example is a SLQ that may have a full head but 1/3 of the shield missing, although to qualify that for this series the FH designation on these has been around since at least the '40s.) I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype.
I think a much more sensible and meaningful qualifier would be perhaps the percentage of a full strike-a simple 90% FS, FS90, 95% FS, FS100 or whatever.[/q
As this is a new and exciting concept we certainly welcome any feedback. You make a fair point and we'll definitely consider it.
<< <i>I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype. >>
No offense, but that is kind of an ridiculous assertion.
It is NOT just hype when there are innumerable examples of collectors paying big bucks for these "simple hypes".
People will pay $20,000 & up for FBL 1953-S Franklins.
$20,000 is a whole popcorn bowl full of hype!
BUT, that kind of money is reserved for PCGS and NGC certified examples. It is very doubtful these same collectors would pay any significant premium for a 90% MACge coin.
As Wondercoin's post implies, there are a without doubt number of 90% FBL 1953-S's to be had. Historically, with a few exceptions, they have not brought significant premiums.
Whether or not MACge changes this remains to be seen. I for one am doubtful.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>Based on your summary, I would not even consider/look at his offerings...Cheers, RickO >>
+1
<< <i>If anyone has a 53 s Franklin in ms66 with 90% FBL send it to be mac'd and sell it to them for $5k. When you get your $5k let me know
+1
Are there really people that collect Washington Quarters or JFK half dollars by "full split beaks" or a "full split tail" Bison/Buffalo Nickel?
http://macablege.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/WHAT-CAN-MAC-DO-FOR-ME-PATENT.pdf
<< <i>
<< <i>Curious, the dealer who stickers his own coin has had the same exact coins for sale on eBay (and elsewhere) for 1+ years now, then stickers all of his own inventory, and then doubles the prices (in some instances, more than 2x).
Has anyone bought one of his $400 modern coins for $900-$1200 (just an example based on some of his coins in my watch list) and can you tell a difference?
Curious if these MACge coins are head and shoulders above their similarly graded non MACge counterparts (because his premiums are not 5%-10%, they are 200%-400%).
Thank you in advance if you have bought these MACge coins before and can share your feedback.... >>
Check completed sales on eBay. >>
Because I was bored and had nothing better to do this evening, I actually looked. Every single specimen was a BIN and not an auction. If the MAC sticker makes them valuable, then they should hold their own in a no reserve auction, no? Anyone can click a BIN button on eBay; that doesn't make the coin worth that much.
It also looks like your standards are already looser than NGC who refused to apply its DPL (DMPL) designation and awarded this modern a PL.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-D-THEODORE-ROOSEVELT-DOLLAR-NGC-MAC-MS67-DMPL-2ND-FINEST-REGISTRY-/400848702759?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5471cd27
<< <i>
<< <i>I think all these terms are, to one degree or another just plain and simple hype. >>
No offense, but that is kind of an ridiculous assertion.
It is NOT just hype when there are innumerable examples of collectors paying big bucks for these "simple hypes".
People will pay $20,000 & up for FBL 1953-S Franklins.
$20,000 is a whole popcorn bowl full of hype!
BUT, that kind of money is reserved for PCGS and NGC certified examples. It is very doubtful these same collectors would pay any significant premium for a 90% MACge coin.
As Wondercoin's post implies, there are a without doubt number of 90% FBL 1953-S's to be had. Historically, with a few exceptions, they have not brought significant premiums.
Whether or not MACge changes this remains to be seen. I for one am doubtful. >>
Still hype IMHO-especially when other details of the design are missing. Why do collectors pay this kind of money for these things? To get the complete rendition of the design as it was originally intended by the designer? Or just for the rarity of a tiny part of the design promoted by some astute hypester? Most of these designations, with the exception of the aforementioned SLQ, have come along in the last 35-40 years if I'm not mistaken. Full steps on Jeffersons may have been around for longer but I sure can't remember any mention "split bands" etc etc when I first started collecting in 1961. These are now set in stone, however, so they're not gonna go away.
Now I can and WOULD pay a significant premium in the coins I collect for a coin designated as a FS (full strike.) My statement about designating that term should apply to all slabbing companies, not just the subject of the thread but I'm sure it will never happen probably because of the time it would take them to do it.
As for Wash. Quarters, I have litte interest to no interest in full beaks, but that is just me personally. Others might Find that designation interesting.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>If anyone has a 53 s Franklin in ms66 with 90% FBL send it to be mac'd and sell it to them for $5k. When you get your $5k let me know
+1
Are there really people that collect Washington Quarters or JFK half dollars by "full split beaks" or a "full split tail" Bison/Buffalo Nickel?
http://macablege.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/WHAT-CAN-MAC-DO-FOR-ME-PATENT.pdf >>
None that I know of for full beaks. Have heard of some pursuing full split tail Buffalo Nickels. However, consider that there really weren't people collecting full head SLQs, full step Jeffersons until maybe 30 or 40 years ago. Full banded Roosies are still pretty new. Everything has to start from somewhere. I, for one, applaud the entrepreneurship of MACge and it will be interesting to see if this takes traction. As usual, rough crowd here for the most part.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If anyone has a 53 s Franklin in ms66 with 90% FBL send it to be mac'd and sell it to them for $5k. When you get your $5k let me know
+1
Are there really people that collect Washington Quarters or JFK half dollars by "full split beaks" or a "full split tail" Bison/Buffalo Nickel?
http://macablege.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/WHAT-CAN-MAC-DO-FOR-ME-PATENT.pdf >>
None that I know of for full beaks. Have heard of some pursuing full split tail Buffalo Nickels. However, consider that there really weren't people collecting full head SLQs, full step Jeffersons until maybe 30 or 40 years ago. Full banded Roosies are still pretty new. Everything has to start from somewhere. I, for one, applaud the entrepreneurship of MACge and it will be interesting to see if this takes traction. As usual, rough crowd here for the most part. >>
Thanks, I appreciate the support. I expected a tough crowd, but not quite like this.
Might have something to do with your company employing someone who sued purt near half the members here. Just sayin...
<< <i>Could work , and definitely would not automatically dismiss it and could see a possible value. Time will tell, we all had some pretty negative opinions of the sticker service that shall not be named. >>
the dichotomy is greater comparing the 2. I myself was not a fan of the leading sticker service when they entered the market but the market has accepted them and they have a ton of real credibility the principals have decades upon decades of positive experience. They have a high level of credibility. This firm has shown a high level of ethics and consistency and has a definitive and important place in numismatics. They have earned that respect and the market is clear as well.
the other sticker firm in question has not only sued collectors for expressing opinions but has not been credible in many respects based on actual apple to apple comparisons - sorry there is a direct connection here and it is one and the same just renamed and recycled. I as a collector and in my own opinion would remove the sticker of this firm on any coin I bought as a buyer the coin is suspect being sold with the sticker in question and would be less valuable considering the firm in question in my opinion. The market will speak on this they sure did on the earlier inception of this firm very clear and the collecting community has not forgotten there past.
<< <i>
<< <i>Could work , and definitely would not automatically dismiss it and could see a possible value. Time will tell, we all had some pretty negative opinions of the sticker service that shall not be named. >>
the dichotomy is greater comparing the 2. I myself was not a fan of the leading sticker service when they entered the market but the market has accepted them and they have a ton of real credibility the principals have decades upon decades of positive experience. They have a high level of credibility. This firm has shown a high level of ethics and consistency and has a definitive and important place in numismatics. They have earned that respect and the market is clear as well.
the other sticker firm in question has not only sued collectors for expressing opinions but has not been credible in many respects based on actual apple to apple comparisons - sorry there is a direct connection here and it is one and the same just renamed and recycled. >>
I understand your frustrations with Mr. Hager, however as I stated earlier is not his firm, it's mine. This is a completely different concept woth different principles. I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals.
<< <i>I understand your frustrations with Mr. Hager, however as I stated earlier is not his firm, it's mine. This is a completely different concept woth different principles. I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals. >>
The website lists Mr. Hagar first and as Founder. What do you mean you (who ever you are) hired Mr. Hagar?
Who actually runs/owns the business? Who actually reviews coins for consideration?
Who is the team?
For all of Mr. Hagar's talents, many folks here feel he uses them for disreputable purposes. Associating one's firm with him is, as I said, a big head-scratcher...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Interesting.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>"I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals."
Interesting. >>
Indeed. All I needed to hear.
merse
<< <i>"I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals." >>
Plus he was available
<< <i>Everyone else with that kind of expertise is either running or employed by the largest firms in the hobby. >>
As I stated earlier I am the president with the financial backing of Mike Rubin. We strongly discourage these appalling ad hominem attacks against Mr. Hager, as we are completely behind this company and will support it and the people in it. We believe that MACGE can bring tremendous value and benefit to the hobby. Although some of the designations that we have created may be a bit puzzling to some, they create a whole new exciting sector within the industry.
And...whether right or wrong, a company is judged by the actions of its employees. All of them. A few friends here got dragged through the legal system by your employee - 'tude and splitting hairs is not going to get us to forget that fact.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I hired Mr. Hager for his knowledge in numismatics not his ethics or morals. >>
Strike three in the bottom of the ninth with two outs, this.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
I think people should stop being sheep and stop this stupid stuff
<< <i>As I understand the previous issues with Mr Hagar, the argument put forth was that it didn't matter that many coins were severely overgraded by market standards because nobody could agree to precisely what the standard was...which raises the question of what standard you intend to have him grade to and how close that is to current market standards. All valid concerns and questions, methinks.
And...whether right or wrong, a company is judged by the actions of its employees. All of them. A few friends here got dragged through the legal system by your employee - 'tude and splitting hairs is not going to get us to forget that fact. >>
As to your point of overgrading, I think it would be impossible for any company today to consistently overgrade coins due to the sheer amount of information that is easily available on the Internet which wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago. There are pictures of the tens of millions of coins that have been accurately graded which anyone can look at. Anybody with a computer can see if someone's standards match up to the rest of the industry without any difficulty. Besides for the fact that we will only be putting stickers on coins that have already been graded by the two major grading services which are accepted by the entire industry.
As far as Mr. Hager is concerned, what ever accusations were thrown back and forth between parties, the disagreement was settled in an out of court settlement in favor of Mr. Hager. That was 10 years ago, if you wish to remain stuck there that's your choice. If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company.
<< <i>Us as consumers are the fools that buy into these sticker companies, I know people that brag about a stickereed coin and I say did you forget how to grade a coin. I think PCGS is all we need , says it's real , gives me a grade they think it is and also slabs the coin for protection.
I think people should stop being sheep and stop this stupid stuff >>
Couldn't agree more. Bottom line-I don't think this latest scheme will go anywhere-few care and fewer (if any) will participate, especially with some of the problems with past ethics by one of the main entities. The only ones at risk will be newbies and I hope the rest of us will educate them. That said, this post has been an interesting read.
<< <i>As far as Mr. Hager is concerned, what ever accusations were thrown back and forth between parties, the disagreement was settled in an out of court settlement in favor of Mr. Hager. That was 10 years ago, if you wish to remain stuck there that's your choice. If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
Time Wounds All Heels
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense. >>
Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers.
To me, I think credibility is key in this industry. PCGS had and has it. NGC had and has it. CAC, and the founders, had and have it.
I stop there.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you want to move into the future and make a lot of money, then you will embrace this concept and you will see the potential of this company. >>
And it's this kind of malarkey that is ruining our hobby.
I'm still waiting to hear how you can defend "first strike" nonsense. >>
Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers.
To me, I think credibility is key in this industry. PCGS had and has it. NGC had and has it. CAC, and the founders, had and have it.
I stop there. >>
I'll agree with 2 out of the 3 and add ANACS, I haven't ever had any problems with ANACS, nice coins!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Yep...to some of us, it is a hobby. To others, a business. To some, it is finding a new generation of suckers. >>
Aye, but if there was no hobby, there would be no businesses or potential suckers.
---
@MACGE1 - You need to fix some editing errors in your "What Can MAC Do For Me" PDF on your website. Some of your designations seem to have changed names so many times that the titles don't match what they're called in the body of the copy anymore. :-)
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I can't make out how to do anything worthwhile with the website...goes into goofy loops...reminds me of the incompetence of the Stacks/Bower site.
edit: seems like the free membership may be just a ploy to get yer email address...I don't recommend signing up!
I also find it difficult to understand how you can determine if something was a "First Strike" when it's almost a hundred years old.
Who are you planning to make all this money off of? Seems like there's quite enough marketing fluff built into the rare coin pricing structure already.
I knew it would happen.
Veiled threats are how things started last time.
No matter what you say Mr. President, those you choose to work with will have an absolute effect on your business reputation. Your statement of not caring about he who shall not be named is akin to saying you would hire or work with a person addicted to drugs and make them the pharmacist in your pharmacy. This line of thought does not sit well with many who are better educated in the hobby and industry. If you can not see this or understand the concern then that would directly be a reflection of yourself.
I have for a long time been a proponent of a 1-100% scale on coins to represent the coins quality. Adding more stickers to coins is just another ploy to make money on money that has already been spent. I personally feel that the stickers on already graded coins is disrespectful towards the company who grade that coin, in essence saying that what they have determined is in question. I do understand that for the grade there will be variance, this is up to the buyer to determine and part of the hobby. By putting more and more stickers on coins and calling into question the grading of coins the hobby/knowledge gathering part of coin collecting is being destroyed. If coin collecting is nothing but for profit for a person they should just invest in raw metals as the hobby will soon be like that if things keep heading the way they are.
Now Franklins can get a 90% FBL sticker. I've gotta wonder: is it really wise to quantify a detail so precisely? CAC, for example -- which is clearly the inspiration for this effort -- accepts coins in the middle and top-thirds for the grade. (And they don't do designations, as I understand.) I'm comfortable with thirds. And I'm comfortable with designations. A coin is either FBL, or it ain't. If there is any question, a TPG can usually settle it. Now, whether a coin is one tenth of the way from a striking designation seems a lot more dicey. It makes me want to get out a ruler and check for myself.
And what really unsettles me, even more than looking at a set of lines that don't look within reasonable range of 90% full and being told that they are, is looking at a 1953 Philly Franklin that's advertised as a 1953-S. I can't blame someone for trying to get $3,000 for a coin that they think is special (if it really was a 53-S, not a 53 which can be had in FBL for one-third that money), but if they're going to do the whole 90% sticker thing they probably should not miss things like that.
Heck, I think if they're going to ride PCGS' and CAC's coattails like they are so blatantly doing with that offering -- to the unsophisticated collector, those two brands will confer legitimacy to the other one stuck on there -- they should just put up that material for bid, not fixed price sales. Might as well start with Heritage. After all, those other two brands were able to pull it off.
<< <i>
And what really unsettles me, even more than looking at a set of lines that don't look within reasonable range of 90% full and being told that they are, is looking at a 1953 Philly Franklin that's advertised as a 1953-S. I can't blame someone for trying to get $3,000 for a coin that they think is special (if it really was a 53-S, not a 53 which can be had in FBL for one-third that money), but if they're going to do the whole 90% sticker thing they probably should not miss things like that. >>
It's even worse than that. One of the pictures is of a 1963 Franklin!
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time.
<< <i>I've been following some MACge stickered coins on eBay and none of the ones I'm watching have sold.
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time. >>
Check completed sales on eBay. We've sold about 30k in the past 2 months.
For example:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=400649170667
This is a $140 coin with out any steps, and doesn't exist with 5FS. This coin exhibits 4FS, and was sold for $520 due to its rarity.
The 'slab' of the future..........
PGIP: Professionally Graded In Peru
IDU: It's Definitely Undergraded
LGTM: Looks Good To Me
YCL: You Can't Lose.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I noticed that nickel too. It's their success story.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been following some MACge stickered coins on eBay and none of the ones I'm watching have sold.
A market is only good/safe bet if people participate in it (e.g. It has liquidity). If they can't sell their own inventory with stickers, how can someone else? It's like saying if JA can't sell coins with CAC stickers, how can anyone else?
I'll report back here if some MACge sales happen on the coins I'm watching. But given their asking prices it might be a long time. >>
Check completed sales on eBay. We've sold about 30k in the past 2 months.
For example:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=400649170667
This is a $140 coin with out any steps, and doesn't exist with 5FS. This coin exhibits 4FS, and was sold for $520 due to its rarity. >>
WHAT?
1. There are over 100 1975 FS PCGS examples graded 65 and 66 and a lone 67.
2. Your coin is listed at $200 not $140 in PCGS Coinfacts.
3. Your coin is Pop 2 coin that is a Registry chasers dream. I think you sold it WAY to cheap!! Your little sticker had nothing to do with it. You probably left a lot of money on the table. If you would have done a no reserve auction I believe you would have realized a LOT more based on the PCGS MS67 grade and the Pop 2 figure. I bet the new owner peeled the sticker off the second they rec'd it!! But you'll never know if your sticker is worth one thin dime with only overpriced Buy it Now auctions. But in this case, you sold yourself short, or should I say you sold a Pop 2 PCGS coin short of its true value.
I have 7 1963-D nickels in MS64. I went through an original canvas bag of 4000 coins and sent the best ones hoping for FS designations (as a 64FS is a $1000 coin). However, I was 0-7.
The nickels are 99% of the way to FS and I'm honestly shocked that ALL of them are not FS. Perhaps with a different Date/MM combination they would have been more generous.
Anyway, MACGE, please let me know if you'd be interested. What do you think these should be worth?
Here's an example: