When does a mordern coin become a classic ?
silvergoldnut
Posts: 456 ✭✭
I see a lot of comments on here about modern crap or bullion junk and it got me to thinking what people were saying years ago about this hobby when they were collecting .
Do you think people were turning their nose up at the Lincoln 55 double die or the 3 legged buffalo? When they were collecting at those times .
makes you think what today's coins will be like 50 years from now.
2008 rev. Of 07 silver eagle
Wisconsin extra leaf quarter
2009 high relief , to name a few.
I read awhile ago about a proof silver eagle graded 70 that sold at auction for thousands , today you might think he was a fool, or maybe in 50 years he or his family will be getting the last laugh. No matter what you collect , I never turn my nose up to a collector of mordern coins.
This hobby is changing as I know some collectors that could care less about old crap coins. their words not mine,lol
Just for the record I collect both , and I mostly collect type coins now .
Do you think people were turning their nose up at the Lincoln 55 double die or the 3 legged buffalo? When they were collecting at those times .
makes you think what today's coins will be like 50 years from now.
2008 rev. Of 07 silver eagle
Wisconsin extra leaf quarter
2009 high relief , to name a few.
I read awhile ago about a proof silver eagle graded 70 that sold at auction for thousands , today you might think he was a fool, or maybe in 50 years he or his family will be getting the last laugh. No matter what you collect , I never turn my nose up to a collector of mordern coins.
This hobby is changing as I know some collectors that could care less about old crap coins. their words not mine,lol
Just for the record I collect both , and I mostly collect type coins now .
0
Comments
Under this definition the 1937-D three legged Buffalo nickel could be on its way to ceasing to be a classic given the all of the overheated non collector demand for it. Yet in the case the anomaly of having the Buffalo with three legs with a disembodied hoof below it might be enough to retain its classic status.
What galls me is the crazy emphasis on 70 vs. 69---it is driven by marketing rather than common sense. Too much pump and dump goes on for my tastes. Collectors who fall into this trap will learn tough lessons. If there are only a few coins graded 70 and hoards with a 69 insert, then some of those 69 coins will eventually upgrade and attenuate the value of the 70 coins---this happens more often than people want to admit. Clever marketers are the winners here, not the collectors.
I am not saying that there aren't problems with classic coins and how they are pitched to collectors. Marketing is the key aspect of the business end of the hobby, after all. And there is an increasing emphasis on very high grade coins (67-68) by many boutique dealers, likely being driven by investor clientele and the Registry Set phenomenon.
The real reason why I don't care for moderns is that I cannot directly associate them with historical events that interest me. I will turn into a pumpkin before 50 years passes, so I don't have the time to wait this out. Even if I did, I think that the number of high-grade survivors will be quite large (akin to what we view as generic classic coins now) and that this will remain an issue for those who are collecting moderns with the expectation of significant price appreciation over time (i.e., this excludes pump and dump strategies). And there would still be a missing historical-tie thingy.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>When does a mordern coin become a classic ? >>
Never IMO since I view "Modern" and "Classic" as "Design Terms". It makes things easier considering that cost and popularity are often thrown into the typical classic definition. It also eliminates the date cutoff line.
In a nutshell:
If it depicts an actual "Person", its of a Modern Coin Design.
If it depicts an image of "Liberty" then its a Classic Coin Design.
As such, the entire line of Eagle Bullion Coins falls under Classic Coin Designs which is what contributes to their popularity.
The name is LEE!
A modern coin is always a modern coin. In 50 years, today's modern coins will no longer be modern. There will be new modern coins then, etc., etc.,etc.
But as long as I'm around, no modern will ever become a classic in my eyes.
Wondercoin.
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Sonoranddesertrat... 69 vs 70... How about a 1927-S quarter going from NGC-MS65FH to PCGS-MS66FH from one Heritage sale to another (over about a 120 period or so) and a $90,000 coin reselling for over $260,000! Now that is "classic"!!
Wondercoin. >>
That is indeed disconcerting. However, the magnitude of the grading game (and gulf in market prices for coins that differ by just 1 point) is much more worrisome where moderns are concerned. Clever marketers are the winners here, irregardless of whether the coin in question is classic or modern.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wheat cents classic, memorials not
Buffs classic, jeffs not
SLQ's classic, washies not
Walkers classic...Franklins getting there, silver kennedy's sort of
Anything clad, no.
Next question?
I respect this opinion and the way with which it is expressed. This is the honest voice of a collector. In the same voice, I'd like to share my own internal logic. I do associate twentieth century coins (through the end of the 60's) with my love of the hobby. They have personal historic significance to me. There are a great number of high-grade survivors (relative to 19th century coins). As a collector, I think it is important for me to seek out exceptional examples of these while there is still raw stock to search. Its a really enjoyable pastime. There is less raw stock than there was 10 years ago, and FAR less than there was 20 years ago. I don't know whether my collection will appreciate significantly in my lifetime. I'm in my late 50's so the market only has 25 years to reward my aesthetic sensibility, provided my lifespan reveals itself to be disappointingly average. Fifteen years ago, I proved to myself I could monetize my work. However, I quickly lost interested in this when I realized doing so ruined my enjoyment of the hobby - turning my focus from coins (IMO) to revenue. I like looking for supergems to add to my collection. I am excited by certain 19th century coins as well. However, I find buying these coins, which are already part of the coin industry 'portfolio', less about my hobby interest and more an emotional response to beauty. Rarity is less exciting to me than beauty. The Internet has made it abundantly clear to me that nothing is rare if you have sufficient funds.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Collecting usually happens after acquiring one or two examples and then becoming intrigued by the history, or the story. As you investigate, more nuances begin to manifest and for whatever reason, whether financial or historical - the process of forming a collection takes place. Therefore, I also agree with Bill Jones that collectors are essential to a coin becoming a classic. When a critical mass of collectors understand the collectability, then it's a classic.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
In a nutshell:
If it depicts an actual "Person", its of a Modern Coin Design.
If it depicts an image of "Liberty" then its a Classic Coin Design.
As such, the entire line of Eagle Bullion Coins falls under Classic Coin Designs which is what contributes to their popularity. >>
**PERFECT** !
A modern coin is always a modern coin. In 50 years, today's modern coins will no longer be modern. There will be new modern coins then, etc., etc.,etc. <<<
+1
these coins had been getting saved since about 1932 in large numbers. This meant most
coins were available but there was extensive interest so coins like a '38-D half would cost
several dollars. Of course my focus was on just the coins my friends and I collected. This
was wheat cents and, in my case, buffalo nickels. Of course I paid a lot of attention to the
Jeffersons as I went through looking for needed buffalos. By 1964 "modern coins" were all
the rage and were defined as anything after 1955. The 1950-D nickel really took the spot-
light and was the darling of investment circles. It was going for as much as about $250 in
today's money. Coin collecting was growing in leaps and bounds as more and more baby
boomers took it up. So something like a roll of '50-D's selling for the equivalent of $10,000
got everyone's attention and everyone wanted to sock away a few rolls of the next coin
which would have such explosive growth. Speculation was rampant in such things as the '58
nickel and even some of the low mintage silver. The average collector was only about 15
years old so coins like the '50-D was a real classic. A lot of the older collectors were buying
bust halfs and large cents but these were well out of the price range of younger collectors.
A common bust half in XF would as much as $10 which was a princely sum.
Fast forward to today and it seems the dividing line between classics and moderns is in ex-
actly the same place it was 50 years ago. Perspective is everything and peoples' perspective
is shaped largely by when the last big change in coinage happened. In 1964 a 14 year old
'50-D nickel was a classic and in 2015 a 15 year old Kentucky quarter is modern junk. Even
the '50-D nickel today is modern to many collectors.
True - a 1950(d) nickel was a "classic" fourteen years later in 1964.
But, equally true that many 14-25 year old coins today are also "classics" right now by the same definition. For example, the 1995-W Silver Eagle, the 1999 (proof dies) gold eagles, the 08 rev 07 silver eagles, the 1990 NO S cents (these can still be "cherrypicked" for $5 even today and are worth $5,000 - $15,000/coin!!!) Heck, even a 1997 SMS Nickel is worth about $125/coin (raw) right now or 2,500 x face. And, the list goes on ... Cheerios Sacs, 08-W $50 burnished plats, etc.
The above, and myriad more coins dated in the last 25 years, are just as exciting to me and many others as the 1950-D nickels were to folks in 1964.
Wondercoin.
But, equally true that many 14-25 year old coins today are also "classics" right now by the same definition. For example, the 1995-W Silver Eagle, the 1999 (proof dies) gold eagles, the 08 rev 07 silver eagles, the 1990 NO S cents (these can still be "cherrypicked" for $5 even today and are worth $5,000 - $15,000/coin!!!) Heck, even a 1997 SMS Nickel is worth about $125/coin (raw) right now or 2,500 x face. And, the list goes on ... Cheerios Sacs, 08-W $50 burnished plats, etc.
The above, and myriad more coins dated in the last 25 years, are just as exciting to me and many others as the 1950-D nickels were to folks in 1964. <<<
Sorry, but I don't see any of these as "classics". Classic to me is not about the "date" or "rarity"......it's about the design. Classic designs are like the Standing Quarter, Mercury Dime and Walking Halves to name a few. These are considered "Classics" by most collectors and other designs have their own following as to classic or not.
The Roosevelt Dime will never be a "classic" not matter how old they get......just like all the other designs being minted now will never be classics. They are not now or ever will be a classic design.
The whole "todays moderns are tomorrows classics" is ridiculous. It's design NOT age.
The "moderns" I tucked away 20-30 years ago are beginning to age (and ripen) beautifully. Just like modern art that is setting world record prices - many of these modern coin rarities will become near "priceless" works of art to their numismatic owners in the years ahead. The labels (i.e. modern vs classic) will be meaningless. The prices realized will tell the whole story in the years ahead.
Wondercoin
I guess a lot of you answered my question in your own way.
I do like some moderns , the 2008 bald eagle silver dollar comes to mind, just like the design.
I also have a couple 2008 rev of 07 silver Eagles and the 2008w gold buffalo 1oz. Not saying I'm gonna make thousands on these but they are kinda cool to have in my collection.
Almost forgot I also picked up the native 2014 enhance finish dollar, I just like the coin !
Mitch - You missed my whole point. Classic to me is design NOT "date" OR especially NOT rarity or price increase. Wither or not some of these modern HIGH grade coins become "priceless" or NOT doesn't make them Classics!
As far as the 1800 widgets you refer to..........The Early Bust coinage is easily the most beautiful classic coinage of all......NO MATTER WHAT GRADE!!
Anyway, you think a VG-8 Early Bust common date coin is the most beautiful of all. Give me a spectacular high end quality DCAM surfaced proof 1971-S Lincoln Cent any day of any week!
Wondercoin
<< <i>When they've circulated and suffered high attrition as spending money, and then when the designs have been obsolete (not minted any more) for at least 50 years >>
Franklin halves would qualify, but I think they're borderline classic/modern.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
That's because they are NOT!
I question anyone who would rather have a proof Lincoln from the 0's than a nice Bust coin!
Wondercoin
It's a COPY.....just like the silver eagles and gold coins......and just BULLION like them!
Wondercoin
1965, the beginning of the clad era, would be one possible cut-off. One could make the argument for 1959, 1956, 1933, 1909, 1907, 1900, and various other dates, depending on one's&p perspective and area of interest. Probably no later than 1965.
<< <i>YES. >>
I agree
A modern coin doesn't become a classic. With respect to our language, I just can't bend things that far.
The Standing Liberty quarter and winged liberty dimes are classic. They did not leave the realm of allegory. I see things rather "simply" with respect to design. Probably not in line with a lot of the way people think, but it's how I define classic and separate it from modern.
Not that I need correcting (I often do) , but it's always good reading men's and women's views on the subjects at hand.
This about throws the buffalo nickel and incuse designs out the window , but it's true. They (those designs) stepped out of bounds in their time and were "modern" for the day. Which , in an odd way, makes a bit of a mockery on the "WHY and HOW" of the times. Are our half dollar commemorative coins "modern" or did they become "classics" ? They're still a coin that weren't spent en masse, but were designed for the collector.
It's a good question and great debate, just the same. It will go on for a long time.
<< <i>CladKing ... Yes and No.
True - a 1950(d) nickel was a "classic" fourteen years later in 1964.
But, equally true that many 14-25 year old coins today are also "classics" right now by the same definition. For example, the 1995-W Silver Eagle, the 1999 (proof dies) gold eagles, the 08 rev 07 silver eagles, the 1990 NO S cents (these can still be "cherrypicked" for $5 even today and are worth $5,000 - $15,000/coin!!!) Heck, even a 1997 SMS Nickel is worth about $125/coin (raw) right now or 2,500 x face. And, the list goes on ... Cheerios Sacs, 08-W $50 burnished plats, etc.
The above, and myriad more coins dated in the last 25 years, are just as exciting to me and many others as the 1950-D nickels were to folks in 1964.
>>
I consider lots of moderns to be true "classics" but I'm in the minority I believe. Something
like the high and low leaf WI quarters certainly spring to mind as classics and even some coins
dated later than this will come toi be seen as important coins of an important era of US and world
history. There are extensive changes going on in nearly every field caused by computers and their
effect on peoples' behavior due to improved communication. Language created the human race and it's
language that is being streamlined and ubiquitous as knowledge is always a few keystrokes away. These
changes are only beginning to ripple through the economy and the pace of change is likely to quicken in
many areas.
That "time don't fly, it bounds and leaps" is likely to start affecting peoples' perception of exactly what
does constitute an "old" coin. When 1999 starts feeling like a long time ago a DE quarter will start seem-
ing like an old coin and a worn out 1965 will feel like an ancient. Instead of the "modern" line holding
fast at 1965 it might suddenly spring up to 2018 or some time in the future that coinage production falls
off because most all transactions are electronic.
The future's hard to predict because it hasn't happened yet. But it will come and the day will come that
people realize the term "modern" doesn't even really apply to half century old coins. Time just keeps march-
ing on whether one looks at it or not. They aren't making bust halfs or WI quarters any longer and this
won't change.
Yes, in my opinion mint errors or variations that were mentioned quickly become "classics"; they're desirable, and highly sought after now, and several will be in the future.
I collect key dates, and mostly really appealing modern commemoratives. Subject, mintage, help in making coins a classic. But the Mint is too dependent in my opinion, on re-treading classic designs. For example, the design of the 1999-W Washington gold commemorative is a classic, comparing aesthetically well to most American coinage, though of course the obverse was designed in 1931. I love the Liberty First Spouses, and the Walking Liberty and St. Gaudens adorning the ASEs and AGEs. I wrote the mint director a decade ago asking for the UHR Saint. While modern, no one can tell me that that the '09 UHR isn't a classic. Same for the '95W ASE, & the '06 reverse proofs. And yes, the prospect of owning a 24K gold Mercury Dime this year is too exciting for me to pass on. All of this is a far cry from collecting in the moderns in the 1960s, 70's and 80s which was monotony for collectors and had poor financial performance to boot.
Circulating coinage is staid, and desperately needs some significant changes. Much of the artistry has been sacrificed, reducing subjects to cartoon-like figures. Teddy Roosevelt would be skewering the Mint Directors for what our nation has today. It would be great to see a wholesale redesign of American coinage which would open the doors to new "classics" being created.
Thanks silvergodnut for raising the question!
at coin shows. Younger people will have a different perspective than those who
began collecting before 1998 because they've had different experiences. Anyone
under 50 years of age may never have seen a silver coin in change or not remem-
ber it. Unlike those who joined the hobby between 1965 and 1998 these folks of-
ten began collecting from pocket change just like the old days so they don't have
a knee jerk reaction against base metal coinage. Some were drawn in by eagles or
commems so they have a sense that moderns aren't strictly base metal. These new-
er collectors won't be collecting like previous generations and only time will tell all
the differences but they're likely to be more interested in type coins, themes, and
more esoteric sets than simple date and mint mark collections. They might not be
quite as grade conscious but they will seek quality, rarity, and completeness how-
ever they define it.
I believe the changes in the hobby will be fun to watch. I don't think anyone can
predict how it will play out but there won't be a large percentage of collectors who
hate moderns and insist on having precious metal in their collections. They will soon
come to think the term "modern" needs to be updated. Today it's not at all uncom-
mon to find 75 year old nickels in circulation. There were no 1888 nickels circulating
in 1957! The oldest dated nickels were 1918's which was a mere 39 years old. Times
change and people usually don't notice until it all hits us at once.
<< <i>Classics have Miss Liberty on them. Moderns feature dead politicians.
Next question? >>
That definition pretty much works for me too.
- Jim
The modern era begins earlier if production is considered-probably in the 1830s.
If we are solely looking at art and design, then the modern era starts later. Even factoring in art and design, we are currently in the Post Modern period-that has come and gone. And I suppose some would suggest we are even past Post Modern.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>CladKing ... Yes and No.
True - a 1950(d) nickel was a "classic" fourteen years later in 1964.
But, equally true that many 14-25 year old coins today are also "classics" right now by the same definition. For example, the 1995-W Silver Eagle, the 1999 (proof dies) gold eagles, the 08 rev 07 silver eagles, the 1990 NO S cents (these can still be "cherrypicked" for $5 even today and are worth $5,000 - $15,000/coin!!!) Heck, even a 1997 SMS Nickel is worth about $125/coin (raw) right now or 2,500 x face. And, the list goes on ... Cheerios Sacs, 08-W $50 burnished plats, etc.
The above, and myriad more coins dated in the last 25 years, are just as exciting to me and many others as the 1950-D nickels were to folks in 1964.
Wondercoin. >>
You appear to be confusing "Classic" with "Expensive" or perhaps "Popular"?
The name is LEE!