Empty package arrives from Australia - Advice Needed
OnlyGoldIsMoney
Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
Any suggestions would be welcome for the following situation. I expect I may need to pursue a paypal claim.
A package I've been expecting since January 11th from Australia arrived today. An ebay seller shipped me a 1 kilo Engelhard silver bar that I for paid via paypal. My credit card was the source of funds.
The package was just a bubble wrap bag with a large tear in the sealed end. I was astounded they did not package the bubble wrap bag in a box. Anyone who would have held the package at USPS would have realized instantly that some large metallic object was inside.
The package arrived empty except for a bit of plastic sleeving that the bar must have been within. The exterior of the package is stamped "Arrived in Damage Condition" in numerous locations. A USPS notice titled "We Care" is taped to the exterior of the package explaining how sorry the USPS is for any inconvenience for the damage they caused in their shipping facility.
The seller provided an Australia Post tracking number at the start of the process that oddly when looked up provides no tracking information. It is as if the item tracked was never in their system.
At my local post office larger packages are placed in a common larger postal box in the lobby. Box holders find a key to that common box in their individual box. Since I got to the post office after closing time I found the item after the staff left for the day - the lobby is open till 10 PM.
I took one look at the package, took few photos and returned the package to the locked box. Tomorrow (Saturday) I will return, talk to the postmaster and refuse the package.
I have since alerted the seller and told them they will need to pursue an insurance claim while refunding my money. What is not clear is how the seller will pursue an Australia Post insurance claim for an item possibly stolen by a USPS employee in sorting.
Any suggestions on pitfalls to avoid would be appreciated.
A package I've been expecting since January 11th from Australia arrived today. An ebay seller shipped me a 1 kilo Engelhard silver bar that I for paid via paypal. My credit card was the source of funds.
The package was just a bubble wrap bag with a large tear in the sealed end. I was astounded they did not package the bubble wrap bag in a box. Anyone who would have held the package at USPS would have realized instantly that some large metallic object was inside.
The package arrived empty except for a bit of plastic sleeving that the bar must have been within. The exterior of the package is stamped "Arrived in Damage Condition" in numerous locations. A USPS notice titled "We Care" is taped to the exterior of the package explaining how sorry the USPS is for any inconvenience for the damage they caused in their shipping facility.
The seller provided an Australia Post tracking number at the start of the process that oddly when looked up provides no tracking information. It is as if the item tracked was never in their system.
At my local post office larger packages are placed in a common larger postal box in the lobby. Box holders find a key to that common box in their individual box. Since I got to the post office after closing time I found the item after the staff left for the day - the lobby is open till 10 PM.
I took one look at the package, took few photos and returned the package to the locked box. Tomorrow (Saturday) I will return, talk to the postmaster and refuse the package.
I have since alerted the seller and told them they will need to pursue an insurance claim while refunding my money. What is not clear is how the seller will pursue an Australia Post insurance claim for an item possibly stolen by a USPS employee in sorting.
Any suggestions on pitfalls to avoid would be appreciated.
NO END IN SIGHT LIB $2.50'S CAC ONLY
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
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Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The good news is that you paid for it with credit card and through PayPal. If the Australian seller doesn't immediately refund your money, then you should open a dispute with PayPal (if you have a PayPal account). If you don't have a PayPal account, you should file a dispute with your credit card. But again, I would ask the seller for a refund before you do that. Only do it if they don't give you the refund right away, or if they ask you to wait.
As for the seller, if they bought insurance they should be OK (eventually). I've sent stuff internationally using US Postal Service and you can buy insurance on priority packages which covers the parcel from end-to-end. The Australian postal system probably also offers insurance for int'l shipments.
I spoke to ebay. They want me to accept the empty package and then provide them photos of the package complete with USPS ink stamps and taped on notice. Their next fund will be to ask the seller for a refund. If the seller refuses it escalates to a paypal dispute. My prospects of being made whole look good.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Ebay does favor the buyer, and as long as it was a PayPal transaction I think your prospects look good too. I cringe every time I have to sell something on ebay these days.
I knew it would happen.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
After 3 days Ebay will escalate if the seller does not respond.
FWIW, here is the bar in question. Its a beauty and my winning bid was only $3 above melt per ounce.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true.
Hope you score another...
<< <i>Sorry to hear about that -- it's terrible.
The good news is that you paid for it with credit card and through PayPal. If the Australian seller doesn't immediately refund your money, then you should open a dispute with PayPal (if you have a PayPal account). If you don't have a PayPal account, you should file a dispute with your credit card. But again, I would ask the seller for a refund before you do that. Only do it if they don't give you the refund right away, or if they ask you to wait.
As for the seller, if they bought insurance they should be OK (eventually). I've sent stuff internationally using US Postal Service and you can buy insurance on priority packages which covers the parcel from end-to-end. The Australian postal system probably also offers insurance for int'l shipments. >>
That bar is bullion and usps insurance will not cover it unless you send it by registered mail.
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) Article 2
Generally, the risk of loss stays with the seller until delivery. It will be the seller’s problem if the goods are damaged or stolen before the risk of loss transfers to the buyer.
I urge all not to do business with such, they also want buyer to pay insurance, lol, soon they will want gas money, paper and other expenses also...lol
The buyer is never liable for delivery...
If a seller can't take full responsibility for what he is selling then beware bigtime, I'm starting to see alot of this creeping up on forum sales on a bunch of sites...
Many want to act like they are in business then ... Run... Fast... Don't look back...
<< <i>Yea it's interesting how alot of sellers think or try to put their responsibility of delivery upon the buyer...
I urge all not to do business with such, they also want buyer to pay insurance, lol, soon they will want gas money, paper and other expenses also...lol
The buyer is never liable for delivery...
If a seller can't take full responsibility for what he is selling then beware bigtime, I'm starting to see alot of this creeping up on forum sales on a bunch of sites...
Many want to act like they are in business then ... Run... Fast... Don't look back... >>
i agree. if i was the seller i would simply ask for a pic of the envelope with all those sorry post office stamps on it and refund the money. put in my insurance claim. nothing else i could do really. crap happens as a seller and cost of doing business. wait for my insurance to pay out. get a positive feedback and move on.
OP, i think you will be just fine. your money will come back to you.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) Article 2
Generally, the risk of loss stays with the seller until delivery. It will be the seller’s problem if the goods are damaged or stolen before the risk of loss transfers to the buyer. >>
That and what rawteam1 said
Good, bad news....you're def going to get your money back but it's going to be a complete waste of time hopefully without headaches involved.
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
OP is asking about an ebay purchase. This is ebay/paypal policy when deciding claims. It is why they require proof of delivery. A seller will never win a claim without it.
Think about it - if they will side with a buyer if item is not described who do you think they are going to side with if item never gets delivered?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I think the seller will be learning a painful lesson here. The method of shipping via AU post may even include insurance standard but if the insurer sees pics of the shipping method they would never pay off.
Is this an actual bullion stacker or dealer or someone selling consignments ? People mail paperback books that way and it works but someone that knows about PM's should be brighter than that.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
OP is asking about an ebay purchase. This is ebay/paypal policy when deciding claims. It is why they require proof of delivery. A seller will never win a claim without it.
Think about it - if they will side with a buyer if item is not described who do you think they are going to side with if item never gets delivered? >>
Agreed.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) Article 2
Generally, the risk of loss stays with the seller until delivery. It will be the seller’s problem if the goods are damaged or stolen before the risk of loss transfers to the buyer. >>
I see so many sellers on other sites implicitly try to defer responsibility onto the buyer. It's nice to be able to offer something concrete as evidence [other than personal opinion] that they are responsible until something is delivered. I was told by an attorney who said that he used to reach transportation law that the UCC doesn't necessarily apply to casual sales as might be encountered here on the BST board. Also it is hard to determine frm Googling UCC whether not it is actually a law as such or preferred guidelines that states should follow when enacting commerce laws.
<< <i>I think the seller will be learning a painful lesson here. The method of shipping via AU post may even include insurance standard but if the insurer sees pics of the shipping method they would never pay off.
Is this an actual bullion stacker or dealer or someone selling consignments ? People mail paperback books that way and it works but someone that knows about PM's should be brighter than that. >>
I believe the seller is someone who had an Engelhard kilo they decided to sell. The padded bag looks like it took a beating getting to me. Something as simple as rough mechanical handling may have ruptured the padded bag. To my mind the seller's shipping method points to inexperience in shipping bullion.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>Lol, better get another attorney... >>
Not my attorney LOL, just a message board opinion like here.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>item belongs to seller until proof of delivery. >>
Where is the legal proof/standing for this? Others who are sellers believe the opposite is true. >>
Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) Article 2
Generally, the risk of loss stays with the seller until delivery. It will be the seller’s problem if the goods are damaged or stolen before the risk of loss transfers to the buyer. >>
You may want to look again here
Particularly here in the last sentence.
§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.
(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.
(2) Where the goods are held by a bailee to be delivered without being moved, the risk of loss passes to the buyer
(a) on his receipt of possession or control of a negotiable document of title covering the goods; or
(b) on acknowledgment by the bailee of the buyer's right to possession of the goods; or
(c) after his receipt of posession or control of a non-negotiable document of title or other direction to deliver in a record, as provided in subsection (4)(b) of Section 2-503.
(3) In any case not within subsection (1) or (2), the risk of loss passes to the buyer on his receipt of the goods if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.
I would expect that casual sales here are verbal contracts and it sounds like the last sentence would mean that once the USPS or FEDEX or UPS takes possession that the onus for loss is on the buyer.
Seems to me that both parties should have an agreement on who is responsible in case of loss BEFORE calling it a done deal.
Best possible news came in by voicemail yesterday evening. The Engelhard kilo was found and is sitting here on my desk as I write.
Speaking to my local postmaster on Monday led to him inquiring down the line with the processing centers. The Lehigh Valley sorting facility had found it January 29th and had placed it in their Registry Room pending someone reporting it missing. After my postmaster described the item accurately the processing center forwarded the item to my post office.
This morning I picked up the bar, closed the ebay dispute and offered to help the seller if ebay tries to reverse the original payment.
If it had been lost forever I am certain ebay would have reversed the payment.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Think about it - if they will side with a buyer if item is not described who do you think they are going to side with if item never gets delivered?
The seller? Ebay sided with the seller in my fraud/complaint case. And the seller never even owned the item they were supposedly selling.....nor did they bother to ship anything to hide that fact. Ebay was fine with all that and closed the case in <2 weeks. I know....they are much more caring today than just a few years ago.
Either way, no one should do business on a forum like this with anyone without full responsibility of seller to deliver, plain... Simple...
Anything lost, seller refunds, plain... Simple...
Anything not delivered, seller refunds, plain... Simple...
<< <i>OGIM, good news that they found your item.
Think about it - if they will side with a buyer if item is not described who do you think they are going to side with if item never gets delivered?
The seller? Ebay sided with the seller in my fraud/complaint case. And the seller never even owned the item they were supposedly selling.....nor did they bother to ship anything to hide that fact. Ebay was fine with all that and closed the case in <2 weeks. I know....they are much more caring today than just a few years ago.
??? I thought u posted u only did deals f2f?...
<< <i>??? I thought u posted u only did deals f2f?... >>
Correctamundo. After that Ebay hammering I never did another Ebay coin transaction again. Even the car that I bought off Ebay in 2012 I first visited the person at their home before bidding and forking over the paypal deposit once I had won the auction. F2F is where it's at. "Know thy seller".....because Ebay generally could care less about who or what they are....as long as they make them profits.
<< <i>
<< <i>??? I thought u posted u only did deals f2f?... >>
Correctamundo. After that Ebay hammering I never did another Ebay coin transaction again. Even the car that I bought off Ebay in 2012 I first visited the person at their home before bidding and forking over the paypal deposit once I had won the auction. F2F is where it's at. "Know thy seller".....because Ebay generally could care less about who or what they are....as long as they make them profits. >>
Yea, u on the money on that 1, I don't know about eBay... But I do know they recognize POM as legit, so u guys better start giving him some respect, they have a market cap over 67 billion so they are legit???!!!...
<< <i>Bajjer is hilarious mistaken, but to quote him it's his opinion, lol, anyways I assume in protection of his own shift of responsibility to buyer if dealing with him...
Either way, no one should do business on a forum like this with anyone without full responsibility of seller to deliver, plain... Simple...
Anything lost, seller refunds, plain... Simple...
Anything not delivered, seller refunds, plain... Simple... >>
It wasn't my opinion duh, it was the opinion of another poster on another venue. I guess that went over your head.
But you are right that it makes sense to determine who will be responsible in the event of loss since it doesn't necessarily legally default to the seller/shipper. UCC stands for Uniform Commercial Code and not Uniform Private/Casual Code. A lot of the casual sales that are done on the BST and PM fora aren't afforded any protection under the UCC. Any deals done here would not be considered commerce. That's why it would be nice if some legal beagle with experience with transportation law would weigh in with some facts about who does or doesn't have rights for deals done here.
<< <i>Update - February 4th
Best possible news came in by voicemail yesterday evening. The Engelhard kilo was found and is sitting here on my desk as I write.
Speaking to my local postmaster on Monday led to him inquiring down the line with the processing centers. The Lehigh Valley sorting facility had found it January 29th and had placed it in their Registry Room pending someone reporting it missing. After my postmaster described the item accurately the processing center forwarded the item to my post office.
This morning I picked up the bar, closed the ebay dispute and offered to help the seller if ebay tries to reverse the original payment.
If it had been lost forever I am certain ebay would have reversed the payment. >>
Glad you got it back. Hope the seller learned/learns something
Great news and a good example of why it pays to be on good terms with the postmaster. I've had mine turn up 2 lost items for me in the past. She gets a box of candy every Xmas as well as garden fresh veggies in the fall.
<< <i>If payment doesn't get to or not received by seller, what is one to do?... >>
Unless the buyer is in your COT, don't ship until the funds are safely in your account or wallet.
<< <i>Best possible news came in by voicemail yesterday evening. The Engelhard kilo was found and is sitting here on my desk as I write. >>
That is great news, happy for you and the seller!
It's the first time I've heard of an item being tracked down after getting out of a package, it seems like they should be able to do it more often.
<< <i>
<< <i>Best possible news came in by voicemail yesterday evening. The Engelhard kilo was found and is sitting here on my desk as I write. >>
That is great news, happy for you and the seller!
It's the first time I've heard of an item being tracked down after getting out of a package, it seems like they should be able to do it more often. >>
The key step in making this all work out was my local postmaster taking the initiative and checking with the regional processing center. Once outside of the packaging the USPS processing center had no way of matching up the item to its intended owner.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>I would love to see a pic of the packaging used. And hear about any following communication from the seller. >>
Photos of the package as requested.
The seller planned to pursue a complaint through Australia Post. I do not know if the seller purchased insurance.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>only a genius sends a kilo bar or bigger in a plastic baggie for all intensive purposes and not secure as possible in a box... >>
Spot on rawteam1. The seller got lucky this time. I gently suggested in my parting email using a bubble wrap package inside a box. Hopefully the seller will have learned a valuable lesson at little cost.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>only a genius sends a kilo bar or bigger in a plastic baggie for all intensive purposes and not secure as possible in a box... >>
+2
<< <i>
<< <i>only a genius sends a kilo bar or bigger in a plastic baggie for all intensive purposes and not secure as possible in a box... >>
Spot on rawteam1. The seller got lucky this time. I gently suggested in my parting email using a bubble wrap package inside a box. Hopefully the seller will have learned a valuable lesson at little cost. >>
Was your bar damaged in any way? It didn't need any intents and care did it?
I'm sure the post office will be looking forward to any of his packages from now on. I mean Seriously. I wonder how he ships gold.
So happy you did get it. What a relief for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>only a genius sends a kilo bar or bigger in a plastic baggie for all intensive purposes and not secure as possible in a box... >>
Spot on rawteam1. The seller got lucky this time. I gently suggested in my parting email using a bubble wrap package inside a box. Hopefully the seller will have learned a valuable lesson at little cost. >>
Was your bar damaged in any way? It didn't need any intents and care did it?
I expected mechanical damage from the USPS equipment but not a new scratch or dent anywhere.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163