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Can this hobby stay ahead of the counterfeiters??

Yes or no, why or why not?

I'm very interested in honest opinions on this. Is this hobby safe 10 years down the road? 20 years? Longer? Or is it likely in the not too distant future that technology and greed give the counterfeiters too much of an edge and diagnostics currently used to weed them out will no longer work?

Coins were my first hobby as a youngster in the late 80's to early 90's and in the last few years the hobby is catching my attention again. I've been reading this board, attended the last few summer ANA shows, and been following some of the high profile auctions. So the interest is still there, but concern about the issue of counterfeit to the future of this hobby is probably my biggest obstacle to collecting again.

Comments

  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    For what we pay PCGS to keep counterfeits in line, I certainly hope PCGS is able to totally control counterfeits in PCGS holders. The rest, I am not at all concerned.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it a bit of a worry? Yes.

    If we all thought counterfeiters were going to win, we'd sell our collections immediately and go do something else. Any other course of action would be completely foolish, apart from those select few who collect expensive coins purely for the sake of collecting.
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's why the grading services started and will continue to a great extent.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 35,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    Secure plus everything NOW
    With decent SP photos of course

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    When there is money to be had, thieves will be there.

    It's going to be a battle that will be harder to fight as time goes on
  • Not when counterfeiting is considered an "honorable" profession as in China. We need a global treaty against counterfeiting with teeth in it and an anti-counterfeiting task force as part of the treasury department.

    They get the crooks but it takes time after many people are burned. Text
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,594 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Probably not.

    Why?

    1. Lack of enforcement of existing counterfeiting laws. The Secret Service is overtaxed with its other duties. Examples need to be made but it does not appear to be happening.

    2. Too many slab varieties (due to marketing considerations) make it easy for the counterfeiters to pass off their product in what appear to be genuine slabs. The average collector or dealer is not going to be able to notice that the slab is not quite right.

    3. An increasingly ignorant collector base that knows only what they see on the internet. They are easily fooled when "key dates" appear in on-line auctions. (1893-S Morgans, anyone ... or have about a "CC"?)

    4. An increasingly sophisticated counterfeit product. Just think of how much the quality has improved since the Trade Dollar counterfeits started appearing about 15 years ago.

    5. Many/most of the supply comes from China. They could care less about our counterfeiting laws.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It will be a constant threat. For those wishing for laws and or enforcement, remember, no law ever prevented crime, it merely provides an avenue for punishment after the fact. The most effective tool against counterfeiters is knowledge/experience.....if the product will not sell, it will not be profitable and therefore the crooks and con men will pursue other venues. Cheers, RickO
  • NapNap Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Provenance will become more important, as it currently is in many sectors of the raw coin trade, when more realize that the slab is not counterfeit-proof.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Counterfeiters were around B.C. I think the hobby is far ahead and above counterfeiters. They (counterfeits and those who would continue passing them) are a dying breed.
    Integrity will not follow them to the boneyard. No worries. The future looks bright and the grave looks dark. Then again, I've been blinded by the light image
  • I have to admit, as I posted about a man who is making millions off PCGS counterfeit holders right now. Check out my other post on it. The certification companies are on the sidelines and either don't want to spend the money to prosecute this growing group of people out there or don't want the integrity diluted by the fact that these exist in LARGE numbers around the world. It is estimated that PCGS and NGC counterfeits in private collections could be in the BILLIONS. One thing they need to consider is if they don't start aggressively pursuing prosecution that they face civil suits from unsuspecting buyers as they are in essence colluding and enabling by not attempting to counter these criminals. Our attorney feels that this may be the first step necessary to get them off their thumbs. A class action lawsuit to make them enforce their integrity.
    Charles Commander
    412 N. Roosevelt Avenue
    Burlington, Iowa 52601
    319-795-2148
    319-520-5091
    www.midwestcoins.net
  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Counterfeiters were around B.C. I think the hobby is far ahead and above counterfeiters. They (counterfeits and those who would continue passing them) are a dying breed.
    Integrity will not follow them to the boneyard. No worries. The future looks bright and the grave looks dark. Then again, I've been blinded by the light image >>



    And it's interesting that some counterfeits have some street cred. There are contemporary counterfeits in the ancient coin trade, obsolete notes and Morgan Dollars that have a following.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can they...yes, will they...who knows? Per some of the notes above, there are ways to combat it that aren't being done. There's enough money in this hobby/industry to force USSS to pay attention, but for some reason it isn't happening. One of the big money guys that owns some politicians needs to step up.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • I hope not but technology is advancing at a faster rate everyday in most aspects of life. After all,old coins are just hunks of metal stamped out by crude machines of yesteryear. Like someone wrote once in a book I was reading about coins" If counterfeiter's get good enough to get by the best experts, how will we know?"
  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This will be the "second-leg" value driver for TPG's. At first it was about objective grades and detecting problems, but now I think Authentication is just as important.
    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have to admit, as I posted about a man who is making millions off PCGS counterfeit holders right now. Check out my other post on it. The certification companies are on the sidelines and either don't want to spend the money to prosecute this growing group of people out there or don't want the integrity diluted by the fact that these exist in LARGE numbers around the world. It is estimated that PCGS and NGC counterfeits in private collections could be in the BILLIONS. One thing they need to consider is if they don't start aggressively pursuing prosecution that they face civil suits from unsuspecting buyers as they are in essence colluding and enabling by not attempting to counter these criminals. Our attorney feels that this may be the first step necessary to get them off their thumbs. A class action lawsuit to make them enforce their integrity. >>



    $BILLIONS? That's probably totally bogus considering the entire coin market is about $3 BILL/year. I'd put the extent of fakes at around 1-5% of the market which is $30MILL-$150MILL/yr. And even at that amount I know the dealers I work with do not see 5% in fakes coming their way. Yes, fakes are a problem. And altered/messed with authentic coins are a much bigger problem (10x bigger?). More money is lost by collectors where they bought over-graded and over-priced authentic coins.

    Fakes are one reason why I will stick to choice/gem 19th and early 20th gold and silver coins where I can easily judge unique luster and striking patterns, surface texture, die detail, die polish, die cracks, and other mint made "flaws" that make those coins very hard to duplicate. It's not like a counterfeiter is going to employ all the skills, techniques, and flaws of the 19th century US mint to make a perfect counterfeit US coin die. I'm not as confident when dealing with circ coins, cleaned coins, damaged coins, etc where it's much easier to mask a problem. The TPG should have little to do with it. If you can't 100% rely on your own and/or your dealer's skills to avoid fake coins, you probably shouldn't be buying them. Way too many newbie dealers over the past 20 years that have let their guards down and now just flip holders. This has dumbed down the general hobby in many regards. If the fake slabs are out there in the $BILLIONs, it's amazing that I have yet to even see one in person....and it's not like I've been hiding under a rock the past 30 years. And none of the half dozen or so dealers I know very well have complained once about being stuck with a fake slab. Time for everyone to brush up on their pre-slab era coin buying chops.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,594 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This will be the "second-leg" value driver for TPG's. At first it was about objective grades and detecting problems, but now I think Authentication is just as important. >>



    But will they also have to start authenticating the slabs themselves? I suspect that this is going to be a major issue in the not too distant future.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • BarberFanaticBarberFanatic Posts: 671 ✭✭✭✭
    The not-so-funny thing about this is that I have a way to make all new slabs virtually 100% counterfeit-proof and I even contacted a few folks at PCGS to see if they were interested. Never got a call back. Never got a single response to an email.
    My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An important issue is to know the dealer from whom you are buying your coins. Anyone worth dealing with in the hobby will try to avoid acquiring such a coin in the first place, and if it happened, would make the buyer of such coin whole and get reimbursed from the T.P.G. I can't imagine the few people I deal with on a regular basis not doing this if the situation arose.

    I always check my sources when it comes to buying a coin from a new entity; I would not buy a coin from a number of dealers in any event.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Yes or no, why or why not?

    I'm very interested in honest opinions on this. Is this hobby safe 10 years down the road? 20 years? Longer? Or is it likely in the not too distant future that technology and greed give the counterfeiters too much of an edge and diagnostics currently used to weed them out will no longer work?

    Coins were my first hobby as a youngster in the late 80's to early 90's and in the last few years the hobby is catching my attention again. I've been reading this board, attended the last few summer ANA shows, and been following some of the high profile auctions. So the interest is still there, but concern about the issue of counterfeit to the future of this hobby is probably my biggest obstacle to collecting again. >>

    I have no problem what-so-ever staying ahead of the counterfeiters.

    If folks are buying counterfeit coins then they need to step back, revisit the basic "duck rules", and stop buying until they can identify a counterfeit.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,594 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The not-so-funny thing about this is that I have a way to make all new slabs virtually 100% counterfeit-proof and I even contacted a few folks at PCGS to see if they were interested. Never got a call back. Never got a single response to an email. >>



    If they are like most corporations they have strict instructions from their legal department not to respond to any such "I have an idea" inquiries.
    If they do, it opens them up to lawsuits.

    Years ago, when I worked in the advertising department of an automotive manufacturer, we would sometimes receive "ad ideas" from the public. When received, I would immediately bring the correspondence to our legal department, who would, in turn, inform them that we did not accept unsolicited ad ideas. I never responded to any of the letters myself. This was company policy.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Not when counterfeiting is considered an "honorable" profession as in China. We need a global treaty against counterfeiting with teeth in it and an anti-counterfeiting task force as part of the treasury department.

    They get the crooks but it takes time after many people are burned. Text >>

    It still is an "honorable" profession. Always has been.

    When I was a kid at the tender age of 8 or so, I knew that there were cheap toys made in China that looked like the American made stuff.

    The problem is that these Chinese coin copiers have a larger market when they leave the word "COPY" off their coins and their target audience are the "scum bags" that like to make big bucks selling these coins to the unsuspecting. In other words, its the "criminal business element" here within this country that is importing this stuff.

    Who in their right mind would not buy something for $3.00 if they knew they could sell it for $250? You do not have to be a "coin collector" or "numismatic professional" to see this golden goose.

    Illegal? Sure, but so is Methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, fake Gucci bags and a host of other items which the criminal businessman is more than happy to provide to paying customers. It's a shame but it's also "life".

    If you are going to collect coins and invest big money into them then you'd damn well better do your homework or else, take your licks.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The not-so-funny thing about this is that I have a way to make all new slabs virtually 100% counterfeit-proof and I even contacted a few folks at PCGS to see if they were interested. Never got a call back. Never got a single response to an email. >>

    ANTHING is possible but the real question is "Can we afford to do this?"

    I'm positive that PCGS will not want to wrap my $10 IKE into a $40 slab at a $20 per coin submission level.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    I trust PCGS and we must try to keep the Chinese out but that is not easy to do. Computers can duplicate anything including the weight of a coin. I only buy PCGS anymore and never on ebay anymore.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good question! Not so sure anymore how safe it's gonna be down the road.
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is of concern to me as a coin collector. I've effectively stopped buying; I'm quite confident that the coins I now have are genuine. If counterfeiters become able to duplicate the kind of coins I collect, and my coins decline in value of a result, even if to zero value, then I'll still enjoy owning my coins and knowing (believing, more accurately) that they are genuine. If they were to decline to zero, while I would not enjoy the financial impact, it would not be material to my net worth. I'm keeping an eye on the quality of these counterfeit early coins, there was an 1806 draped bust half posted recently that fooled me, and that was a wake up call. With computer aided design and manufacturing, and seeing what Carr is able to do in his shop, I'm very reluctant to invest as heavily in pricey early coins, compared to how I used to feel, and would otherwise feel, in the absence of this threat. Convincing counterfeits also impact collectible antique furniture, toys, etc. Begs the question, "if you can't tell the difference, what does it matter?" Not saying that I think that, mind you. Just saying, someone could think that.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is of concern to me as a coin collector. I've effectively stopped buying; I'm quite confident that the coins I now have are genuine. If counterfeiters become able to duplicate the kind of coins I collect, and my coins decline in value of a result, even if to zero value, then I'll still enjoy owning my coins and knowing (believing, more accurately) that they are genuine. If they were to decline to zero, while I would not enjoy the financial impact, it would not be material to my net worth. I'm keeping an eye on the quality of these counterfeit early coins, there was an 1806 draped bust half posted recently that fooled me, and that was a wake up call. With computer aided design and manufacturing, and seeing what Carr is able to do in his shop, I'm very reluctant to invest as heavily in pricey early coins, compared to how I used to feel, and would otherwise feel, in the absence of this threat. Convincing counterfeits also impact collectible antique furniture, toys, etc. Begs the question, "if you can't tell the difference, what does it matter?" Not saying that I think that, mind you. Just saying, someone could think that. >>



    One of the ancillary objectives to my fantasy-date over-striking activities was to document the characteristics of die-struck pieces made (or modified) by using modern computerized technology. I've stated that objective from the beginning and I will continue with it.
    I am not the only one who potentially could utilize similar technology. But at least I document what I've done rather than some actual counterfeiter who would stay hidden and sell to unsuspecting buyers.

    Regardless, to date, I have not produced anything that would exceed the quality of an "Omega" counterfeit or the "1959-D Wheat Cent", for example.
    The problem of high-quality counterfeits has been around for a while - ever since the first wave of high-quality $2.50 and $5.00 gold Indian Head coins from the Middle East in the 1960s.


  • My answer to the question is no! I respect DC for his statements of intent and production but nothing is stopping him or anyone else with a press from making a very good to undetectable counterfeit. This is just how it is.
  • Maybe gold coins is the way to go, at least if counterfeiters get that good you would at least have the gold. That's what happened to collectors who bought gold coins that were fake back in the 60's and 70's that come out of the middle east somewhere that were made out of real gold and correct weight.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Send in the special forces to "eliminate" the counterfeit factories in the name of National security. Counterfeiting US money is illegal no matter what denomination.image
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • Thanks all for the wide range of opinions and thoughtful comments on this.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,513 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My answer to the question is no! I respect DC for his statements of intent and production but nothing is stopping him or anyone else with a press from making a very good to undetectable counterfeit. This is just how it is. >>



    Totally agree, and with garrynot's counterpoint to my earlier post, I would also have to agree. Not ALL of it's dead and "in the grave" or the dark, for that matter.
    Some of these "counterfeits" become collectible, too.

    But to DC's productions…. I don't see them, as such, to be "counterfeit" or violating the HPA (with mitigating circumstances) . Perhaps that's because they're advertised for what they are, to a few who have supported his work in the field of 'coining', as a manufacturing process, and an entrepreneurial business alongside us, along with the many other collectibles that fill the niche of collectors. For instance : 2009 SAE Proof , or the infamous '64 D Fantas "overstrike". Or the zombies. image
    There's such a fine line between all the layers of numismatics and collecting of 'artistic, or historic artifacts that it's actually quite pleasing. To have variety and a wide array.
    Because that opens the doors, even as it may open a "can o worms" for others. I think the very nature and fun in the hobby is "finding our niche".


    and as always,

    Please correct me if and when I'm wrong. I ain't always right image

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