Delivery issues with Northwest Territorial Mint
PRIZ430
Posts: 306 ✭✭✭
Thought I would share this article.....LINKY
Eric King: “John, I’m going to bring in a 30-year metals dealer into the conversation, but first I wanted to ask you about concerns people have had about Northwest Territorial Mint.”
John Embry of Sprott Asset Management: “Investors are doing the right thing by attempting to buy physical gold and silver at these depressed price levels. But it’s absolutely critical that the dealer with whom people are placing orders can guarantee you almost immediate delivery.
I think the gold and silver paper market is one of the greatwar Ponzi schemes on earth. So if you are going to buy physical, make sure the entity you are buying it from has it immediately available for shipment. If they are telling it’s going to be many weeks or months, I would run the other way because there is absolutely no excuse for that.”
Echoing John Embry’s warning, 30-year metals dealer Stephen Quayle shared the following details about what the precious metals purchaser can do to protect themselves.
Quayle: “If a deal seems to good to be true, it is. If dealers and distributors can’t buy at spot, what makes people think they can? People who are penny wise and pound foolish when buying precious metals get burned. And we are not talking about pennies here, we are talking about people’s life savings.”
Eric King: “There have been a number of people over time who have reached out to KWN and also to you about problems they have experienced with Northwest Territorial Mint. Below is a portion of an email from a concerned Northwest Territorial Mint customer that was made public on Monday at another site:
“Several years ago I purchased some gold Krugerands and a bag of “junk” silver from them (Northwest Territorial Mint). The service at that time was very courteous and the delivery was prompt. Fast forward to this year, and my experience with the company has been quite different. Hopefully my experience is not typical, but I thought you should at least be aware of it.
June 25th, 2014. I ordered a monster box of Silver Canadian Maples. I was promised delivery in approximately 6 weeks. August 25th, 2014 (approx.) I called to check on the order and was informed that the product was en-route to NWT and the shipping date to me was scheduled for August 25-29. September, 2014. The product had still not arrived. Called NWT mint and was told that the product was scheduled to ship on September 29. October 2014. Still no delivery.
I called again on October 3. It was very difficult to get a hold of the person responsible for my account so I finally left an e-mail on the company’s web site contact point. An e-mail back informed me that the product would arrive in 2 weeks, probably, but that I also had a right to cancel my order. Despite the drop in [the spot] silver price since 4 months earlier, I wanted to give NWT Mint the benefit of the doubt, and my patronage.
November 2014. Still no delivery. Called NWT Mint November 10 and requested cancellation of order. November 10, 2014. My cancellation was accepted. Refund in full of $11,570 promised. (This is actually a generous policy, since the price of an oz of silver has dropped since last June). However I was informed that it would take 7-10 business days for NWT Mint to get a check into the mail. (Can’t really understand this time-frame but I agreed to wait.)
November 29, 2014. Still no check. I emailed a request for status. I am surprised that a company of NWT Mint’s stature had over $11K of my money for 5 months with no delivery of the ordered product and no preemptive calls or emails regarding the status of my account with them. Perhaps these days we need to be patient for our precious metals, but this seems unreasonable.”
Eric King continues: “On receiving that email the website terminated the Northwest Territorial Mint paid sponsorship and stated in part, “I no longer recommend doing business with Northwest Territorial Mint. We value our reputation, and we cannot endorse or accept advertising from any company that does not continuously maintain high standards of conduct.” What are your thoughts on this situation Steve?”
Quayle: “Eric, it doesn’t get any easier than the following three points: First, ask what the delivery time is going to be, and is it guaranteed? Second, does the dealer use the clients funds to play the paper commodity market? Third, ask if the dealer can deliver the metal in the guaranteed time frame?
Eric, what the customer is describing in the email above is naive. This customer has a great deal of patience and hope in what is in reality a very bad situation. As most people are aware, if a company goes into bankruptcy the client will basically get nothing back.
There is no reason in the precious metals world that you should not be able to get your metals within one week or two weeks at the outside. Delivery is everything, not price, because you can have the best price in the world but if the guy gets away with your money, how much did you pay for the gold and silver you never got? The answer is, you paid too much and you paid for a valuable lesson. They don’t just take a slice of your pie, they take a slice of your life savings.
I have been in the precious metals business for over 30 years, and what I can tell you is that when people start getting excuses from their dealer, they need to demand their money back. All of these types of problems stem from people thinking they can buy metal at spot price and then storing the metals with the company or individual who they bought them from.
The other thing I have seen over the years are a lot of dealers that play the ‘paper market,’ betting one way or another. In other words, if they suspect the metals are at a one week or two week high, they will take orders promising delivery and then they will short the market. Well, if the market goes against them, those dealers have lost their clients’ money. Again, people have to ask dealers, ‘Are you playing the paper market with your clients’ money?’ In other words, are they gambling or betting with their clients’ money?”
Readers can reach Stephen Quayle or members of his staff if they have questions or concerns at (406)586-4842.
People can also call the Washington State Office of the Attorney General if they are concerned about their dealings with Northwest Territorial Mint at (206)464-6684. If the dealer you are having problems with is located in another state, simply contact that state’s Attorney General and they will be able to assist you further.
People can also look at the extraordinary amount of problems that have taken place with various dealers across the country, including Northwest Territorial Mint by clicking on this link http://about.ag/GoldSilverFraud.htm
Eric King: “John, I’m going to bring in a 30-year metals dealer into the conversation, but first I wanted to ask you about concerns people have had about Northwest Territorial Mint.”
John Embry of Sprott Asset Management: “Investors are doing the right thing by attempting to buy physical gold and silver at these depressed price levels. But it’s absolutely critical that the dealer with whom people are placing orders can guarantee you almost immediate delivery.
I think the gold and silver paper market is one of the greatwar Ponzi schemes on earth. So if you are going to buy physical, make sure the entity you are buying it from has it immediately available for shipment. If they are telling it’s going to be many weeks or months, I would run the other way because there is absolutely no excuse for that.”
Echoing John Embry’s warning, 30-year metals dealer Stephen Quayle shared the following details about what the precious metals purchaser can do to protect themselves.
Quayle: “If a deal seems to good to be true, it is. If dealers and distributors can’t buy at spot, what makes people think they can? People who are penny wise and pound foolish when buying precious metals get burned. And we are not talking about pennies here, we are talking about people’s life savings.”
Eric King: “There have been a number of people over time who have reached out to KWN and also to you about problems they have experienced with Northwest Territorial Mint. Below is a portion of an email from a concerned Northwest Territorial Mint customer that was made public on Monday at another site:
“Several years ago I purchased some gold Krugerands and a bag of “junk” silver from them (Northwest Territorial Mint). The service at that time was very courteous and the delivery was prompt. Fast forward to this year, and my experience with the company has been quite different. Hopefully my experience is not typical, but I thought you should at least be aware of it.
June 25th, 2014. I ordered a monster box of Silver Canadian Maples. I was promised delivery in approximately 6 weeks. August 25th, 2014 (approx.) I called to check on the order and was informed that the product was en-route to NWT and the shipping date to me was scheduled for August 25-29. September, 2014. The product had still not arrived. Called NWT mint and was told that the product was scheduled to ship on September 29. October 2014. Still no delivery.
I called again on October 3. It was very difficult to get a hold of the person responsible for my account so I finally left an e-mail on the company’s web site contact point. An e-mail back informed me that the product would arrive in 2 weeks, probably, but that I also had a right to cancel my order. Despite the drop in [the spot] silver price since 4 months earlier, I wanted to give NWT Mint the benefit of the doubt, and my patronage.
November 2014. Still no delivery. Called NWT Mint November 10 and requested cancellation of order. November 10, 2014. My cancellation was accepted. Refund in full of $11,570 promised. (This is actually a generous policy, since the price of an oz of silver has dropped since last June). However I was informed that it would take 7-10 business days for NWT Mint to get a check into the mail. (Can’t really understand this time-frame but I agreed to wait.)
November 29, 2014. Still no check. I emailed a request for status. I am surprised that a company of NWT Mint’s stature had over $11K of my money for 5 months with no delivery of the ordered product and no preemptive calls or emails regarding the status of my account with them. Perhaps these days we need to be patient for our precious metals, but this seems unreasonable.”
Eric King continues: “On receiving that email the website terminated the Northwest Territorial Mint paid sponsorship and stated in part, “I no longer recommend doing business with Northwest Territorial Mint. We value our reputation, and we cannot endorse or accept advertising from any company that does not continuously maintain high standards of conduct.” What are your thoughts on this situation Steve?”
Quayle: “Eric, it doesn’t get any easier than the following three points: First, ask what the delivery time is going to be, and is it guaranteed? Second, does the dealer use the clients funds to play the paper commodity market? Third, ask if the dealer can deliver the metal in the guaranteed time frame?
Eric, what the customer is describing in the email above is naive. This customer has a great deal of patience and hope in what is in reality a very bad situation. As most people are aware, if a company goes into bankruptcy the client will basically get nothing back.
There is no reason in the precious metals world that you should not be able to get your metals within one week or two weeks at the outside. Delivery is everything, not price, because you can have the best price in the world but if the guy gets away with your money, how much did you pay for the gold and silver you never got? The answer is, you paid too much and you paid for a valuable lesson. They don’t just take a slice of your pie, they take a slice of your life savings.
I have been in the precious metals business for over 30 years, and what I can tell you is that when people start getting excuses from their dealer, they need to demand their money back. All of these types of problems stem from people thinking they can buy metal at spot price and then storing the metals with the company or individual who they bought them from.
The other thing I have seen over the years are a lot of dealers that play the ‘paper market,’ betting one way or another. In other words, if they suspect the metals are at a one week or two week high, they will take orders promising delivery and then they will short the market. Well, if the market goes against them, those dealers have lost their clients’ money. Again, people have to ask dealers, ‘Are you playing the paper market with your clients’ money?’ In other words, are they gambling or betting with their clients’ money?”
Readers can reach Stephen Quayle or members of his staff if they have questions or concerns at (406)586-4842.
People can also call the Washington State Office of the Attorney General if they are concerned about their dealings with Northwest Territorial Mint at (206)464-6684. If the dealer you are having problems with is located in another state, simply contact that state’s Attorney General and they will be able to assist you further.
People can also look at the extraordinary amount of problems that have taken place with various dealers across the country, including Northwest Territorial Mint by clicking on this link http://about.ag/GoldSilverFraud.htm
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Comments
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>It was bound to happen with the free fall in PM's and I'm surprised that only NTM is in trouble. >>
Others are most likely to follow. Be careful out there.
Tips to help avoided becoming a victim.
1. Deal with reputable sellers.
2. Always confirm via phone that item is in stock and how soon it will be shipped.
3. If possible pay via wire transfer or credit card to expedite processing and shipping.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>about.ag >>
Interesting list of "characters"
<< <i>One of my first "big" silver purchases was through NWTM circa 2008 or early 2009. They had by far the best prices, but they were upfront about the fact that it they were on a 3 month shipping delay. I did get my silver around the time I was promised. >>
YTF would someone in that business need 3 months to ship stuff?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
about.ag
Wow
One of my first "big" silver purchases was through NWTM circa 2008 or early 2009. They had by far the best prices, but they were upfront about the fact that it they were on a 3 month shipping delay. I did get my silver around the time I was promised.
Wow, that was risky
"Getting Actual, Prompt Delivery of Your Metals Is More Important Than Getting the Lowest Price."
Repeat, Rinse, Repeat etc
When metals prices are on a long upward climb, they all make money. When metals prices decline or remain stagnant for an extended length of time, they drop like flies if they use other people's money to fund ongoing operations.
I knew it would happen.
I don't know how any of them can stay in business.
By properly managing cash flow. By having cash when it's not coming in the mail. Those that depend strictly on sales to pay their bills will end up on "the list."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Are a lot of those that failed running on paper gold or are they selling more than they can get. Or are they just getting greedy and pulling a Madoff?
I believe it boils down to the market did not allow them to buy low and sell high. Cash flow needs for the unprepared requires them to sell even at a loss. They were not prepared to weather the storm, and in many cases only dug a deeper hole.
Shame that they couldn't do like the paper market and sell metal they didn't have without having to pay the piper.
Back in the old days when I was in the advertising business a sure sign of impending customer failure was a massive advertising campaign that included a request to fund it with agency credit.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
According to Coin World, Ross Hansen (former owner of the now bankrupt Northwest Territorial Mint) and his girlfriend Diane Erdmann (vault manager at NWTM) failed to appear in court for sentencing on 29 April 2022. They are now on the FBI's wanted list. Both were facing up to 20 years in prison and $250,000 fines. I think those amounts will be higher the next time.
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2022/05/11/fbi-fugitives-auburn-mint-operator-arrested-fraud.html
Ross Hansen still owes me the 1/10th oz AGE that he promised me, for the abysmal response on a significant order from before his bankruptcy. Fortunately, the order did get filled about 8 weeks later than what NW Mint promised. It was a nail-biter tho'.
I knew it would happen.
FWIW, just got 3-5 day delivery on large orders from APMEX and Bullion Exchanges (wire payments). Some good deals can be found on BE and was lucky to catch a good deal on some MS 70 Buffs at APMEX. Although we are in the midst of PM premium highs, I am optimistic that today's prices are tomorrow's bargains.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I was just reading about NWTM on Google this afternoon. I just wanted to get a better feel for why the company went bankrupt. I Was surprised as I had just 1 transaction with NWTM. I order some copper bullion bullets and some issues with the order being filled. I got just part of my order, but they fully refunded the rest of my order. I later found out that they were oversellin their stock and still taking orders.I guess I was lucky as I didn't loose any money and acquired some very fine copper bullion bullets.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
lesson to be learned: do not sell what you do not have.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I don't do business with anyone unless I'm looking at the product with my eyes. I've seen too many horror stories. There certainly are good companies out there but you really never know if they are having internal management or cash flow problems.
I also prefer to pick up the bullion when I pay for it.
It seems like the story is always the same, dealer builds a loyal following, dealer collects money for future shipment, dealer starts to get bad internet reviews for slow shipping and bad customer service, things spirals out of control dealer shuts down and honest people don't get their bullion and loose their money.
My observation, I certainly could be wrong is that the problems accelerate as prices and premiums are quickly rising.
Dealer collects the money on Monday and is betting can buy his inventory tomorrow or a week or two from Monday for less money. Waiting for a pause in the cycle or a dip in prices. Works with OPM and makes his profit and builds inventory.
I would think you would have to be correctly hedged on paper to pull this off. I would think it's not as easy as it looks or more people would be doing it. There are times when silver starts to run when things change by the hour.
Years ago there was an enterprising coin dealer here that failed spectacularly.
The worst part is even after the red flags begin to appear people still keep on placing new orders with the company.
In most cases there are no red flags. They simply stop filling orders.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Seems like watching the internet reviews provides an indication there could be a problem. Also the number of items listed with a future ship date. Right now one of the websites has almost all generic silver bullion listed with an expected ship date at two weeks, it seems to stay at 2 weeks. It's most likely a situation where they can't get delivery of the bulk silver fast enough to manufacture the rounds and bars but you just don't know. Same website is getting bad internet reviews for slow shipping. Maybe all is good, maybe not.
Shipping delays in an up market are different than shipping delays in a down market. In an up market, it's likely that supply is being stretched and that you will eventually get your order.
In a down market, there's a big risk of insolvency and mismanagement of running the business on leverage from borrowed funds.
I knew it would happen.
A recent Coin World article indicates that Hansen and Erdmann were captured and sentenced on 06 June. Both were arrested in Washington state while driving a car with three loaded guns in it. Hansen was sentenced to 11 years and $33.7 million in restitution. Erdmann got 5 years and was ordered to pay $32.1 million restitution. We will see how much time they actually serve (hopefully all of it). I expect that they can't, and won't, pay any restitution.
Yep it's a shame the restitution part is nothing more than a paper joke. They probably won't serve half what they were sentenced. Oh well hopefully Karma works her Magic. RGDS!
I needs me some restitution.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey