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U.S. coins which are Extinct................
keets
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Are there any U.S. coins by date/mm which are Mint issues intended for circulation which are no longer in existence, meaning that the entire mintage has been lost to attrition?? Any examples held in a Mint collection or at the Smithsonian wouldn't count as still existing.
To those who wonder, I was in the PO this morning and the thought came to me that a stamp is probably a consumable item and that perhaps all that are made may be used for their intended purpose, especially since the 90's crash of the Hobby. Then my mind wondered into coins.....................
Al H.
To those who wonder, I was in the PO this morning and the thought came to me that a stamp is probably a consumable item and that perhaps all that are made may be used for their intended purpose, especially since the 90's crash of the Hobby. Then my mind wondered into coins.....................
Al H.
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<< <i>The 1873-s Seated Dollar. (700 minted) R.I.P. >>
Or the 1895 Morgan business strike.
Personally I don't think that either was ever struck, and that the recorded mintages are just late releases of leftover coins from the previous year. It is very telling that at least one of the 1895 dollars reserved for the assay commission is recorded as being a Proof. Why would they send a Proof unless they were covering up the fact that the "mintage" it was supposedly from was actually dated 1894?
There were supposed to one gold example and one gold platted copper piece extant in the 1800s. The gold coin was said to have been in the estate of a former secretary of the Treasury named Merridith which was handled by a 19th dealer named Nagey. The coin, as the story goes dropped out of the sight in the 1890s. What happened to it? Who knows? It might out there somewhere; it could have lost; or it could have been turned in to the Government in 1933. There were stories of Pan Pac $50 gold coins in the pile to be melted.
Personally I don't think that either was ever struck, and that the recorded mintages are just late releases of leftover coins from the previous year. It is very telling that at least one of the 1895 dollars reserved for the assay commission is recorded as being a Proof. Why would they send a Proof unless they were covering up the fact that the "mintage" it was supposedly from was actually dated 1894?
Actually, Roger Burdette had an excellent article in Coin Values in 2006 (back when it was a separate magazine from Coin World) that demonstrated that the 1895 Morgans had been minted for circulation.
According to the Mint's monthly production reports, 12,000 Morgans were minted in June and the proofs were minted in March (290), May (180), September (90) and December (320).
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1873-S No Arrows Seated half - - 5,000 minted.
1841-O Half Eagle - - 50 minted.
In addition, there are records that 1870-S quarters were struck, but none are known to exist. Hopefully someone will find one!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
He concludes that the 50 coins delivered in August were most likely struck in January or February using the 1840 dies (as were 8,300 other half eagles).
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<< <i>RW Julian published an article in the July 2014 issue of The Numismatist that discussed the 1841-O half eagles.
He concludes that the 50 coins delivered in August were most likely struck in January or February using the 1840 dies (as were 8,300 other half eagles). >>
Or struck in 1840 and delivered the following year, as may have happebned with the 1870-S and 1895 dollars.
As for the 1895 dollars, perhaps you missed my reply above.
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<< <i>Well, I would think that any coins leftover from 1840 would have been delivered with the coins minted in January and February, but. . .
As for the 1895 dollars, perhaps you missed my reply above. >>
Who says that any 1841-O coins were minted in January or February? The mint could have had coins left over from late 1840 and reported them in 1841 as struck, Had they actually made 1841-O coins later in the year the accounting sleight of hand would never have been noticed.
I am certain that dated coins were routinely carried over and released in the early deliveries of the next year. Look at how many mintage figures end in nice round numbers, typically multiples of 1,000 dollars, 2,000 halves or 4,000 quarters. For their purposes it was simpler to deliver in $1,000 multiples.
However, coinage was always in odd lots. Make a random batch of planchets, run them through the presses and remelt the misstrikes. THe chances of the surviving good coins being worth exactly $1,000 are 1 in a 1,000 for dollars, 1 in 2,000 for halves and 1 in 4,000 for quarters.
Why melt the good coins? Keep them on the bullion account book for a while and report them out as coins later.
As to the 1895 dollars, I did not miss your comment. Mr. Burdette has a good theory. There are other theories as to what really happened with the 1895 business strike dollars.
TD
<< <i>The most likely fate for the 1895 business dollars, if they ever existed, is that they got melted as part of the Pittman Act in 1918. It would only been 12 bags of dollars, about half of the Morgan Dollar mintage was destroyed as a result of that act. >>
Also a good theory, but a question. Let's assume that the Philadelphia Mint had x-number of vaults to store its surplus dollars in. They know that many of them were going to be there in long-term storage as backing for silver certificates. The logical thing to do would be to fill up vault "A" till it could hold no more, then seal it with the number written on a tag and leave it shut for decades. Then do the same with vault "B," etc.
Depending on the sizes of the vaults and production levels, and how many coins actually were released to circulation, vault "A" might be all 1878 and vault "B" part 1878 and part 1879. Vault "C" could be all 1879, and vault "D" part 1879 and part 1880, etc.
The 1894 mintage apparently was largely released into circulation, as evidenced by the typical grade seen. Of course, Bowers mentions "several" bags Uncirculated 1894's being released in the 1950s and early 1960s, so those several bags did make it into whatever vault was being filled at the time.
The 12 bags of 1895 coins allegedly struck did not make it into circulation, or into that working vault with earlier dates including the 1894s that were released in the 1950s. Where did they go?
They could have started filling a new vault that was then topped off with 1896 coins, that vault then being emptied in 1918 and melted. Quite possible. The 1896 mintage was large, and even if one vault of them was melted it would still be a common date.
Or, 12 bags of 1894 dollars that had been reported as 1895 coins on the books could have started a new vault that was then topped off with 1896 coins, all of which were released in the 1950s and early 1960s.
All of this is speculation, of course.
TD
Actually, Julian does, right in his article: "The 1840 dies, intact, had been used for the 8,300 half eagles struck in January and February 1841."
I presume that he's drawing an inference, since, as far as I know, the Mint reported coin deliveries, but not the specific dates on which the coins were struck. Clearly, some sort of "smoothing" happened, since, at that time, the Mint's gold deposits didn't come in round numbers and the Mint didn't have a Bullion Fund, so they were only able to return the gold that was deposited in coin form to the depositor and, as you point out, the mintages were often suspiciously round in number.
However, the Mint was obliged to return the coins to the depositor in a "timely" manner, so at a smaller mint, like New Orleans, there would have been limited opportunity to do a lot of smoothing of accounts.
As to the 1895 dollars, I did not miss your comment. Mr. Burdette has a good theory. There are other theories as to what really happened with the 1895 business strike dollars.
Wow. That's a really impressive and compelling argument. I'm totally convinced by the amount and detail of the sources you cite.
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Why would they make two 1804 half dollar obverse dies? They probably struck some 1804 half dollars. There were no recorded annual mintages at that time, only records of deliveries, which could include coins dated in the previous year to when they were delivered, as were the 19,570 dollars delivered in 1804 that were certainly dated 1803.
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<< <i>Are there known dies for US coins that were never known to be minted in any form including a pattern? >>
Do you mean an old die known to exist today that was never used for coinage?
There were lots of dies recorded as having been made and shipped to branch mints that were never used because that mint never made that coin in that year.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are there known dies for US coins that were never known to be minted in any form including a pattern? >>
Do you mean an old die known to exist today that was never used for coinage?
There were lots of dies recorded as having been made and shipped to branch mints that were never used because that mint never made that coin in that year. >>
I believe that there are more dies that were known to have been shipped to the branch mints than there are die varieties that are known to exist.
I believe that I have read that Three Dollar Gold Piece dies were sent to the Charlotte Mint in 1854, but that the Charlotte Mint never made any coins with them. In way that is a blessing because it eliminated one rare coin that would now cost a small fortune if it had been minted.
One of the ultimate rare coins in the Private and Territorial Gold series is the 1849 Templeton Reid 25 dollar gold piece which was stolen from the U.S. Collection and never recovered. I'm sure that puppy was melted soon after it was taken.
<< <i>Are there known dies for US coins that were never known to be minted in any form including a pattern? >>
There are some coins, such as the 1802/1 half eagle, made from an 1801 obverse die of which no half eagles were known with that date. Robert Scot was required to make dies ahead of time, "to provide a number of each denomination on hand as to prevent unnecessary delays that may be occasioned by breaking," as mandated by Mint Director Elias Boudinot in his 1795 publication of "Orders and Direction for Conducting the Mint of the United States."
Most early (bust) overdates are explained as either leftover dies towards the end of a series of dies from the previous year, or blundered dates. With the 1805/4 half dollar dies, there was not as much coinage activity in 1804, thus Robert Scot reworked the half dollar die to a lower relief, probably in an effort to extend the life of dies. Scot went through the work of creating a new master (original) die, hub, and working die, one would expect him to see the product of his work by striking an 1804 half dollar, even if it was experimental. Of course, this is conjecture that can't be proven.
In the 1790s and early 1800s it was the general rule to deliver all coins on hand by the end of the year.
When the coinage became much heavier, however, the use of even-number deliveries was the more
likely. If, for example, 240,321 half dollars were available for a July delivery by the coiner, he might bring
only 240,000 to the mint treasurer. The odd 321 pieces would be held over until the next delivery. These
hold-over coins rarely amounted to more than a few hundred pieces, however.
The point of deliveries with an even number of coins was to make life easier for the mint clerks as well as
the Treasury auditors.
Neither of the above rules was absolute and one finds odd numbers being delivered well into the 19th
century, depending upon the mint and whether gold or silver.
In the case of the supposed 1841–O half eagle the odd 50 pieces delivered in August 1841 were almost
certainly held over from February, awaiting a larger delivery where they could be included. However, the
annual suspension of the New Orleans Mint in the fall of 1841 apparently persuaded officials that there
would be no more half eagles that year. The coiner then delivered the 50 pieces; the fact that no assay
pieces were reserved from this delivery, as required by law, would seem to settle the matter in favor of an
original striking in February 1841. The relatively heavy coinage of half eagles in January/February 1841
is reasonable proof in itself that all were dated 1840.
Yes, many, in fact.
The Mint annual reports from the latter half of the 19th century report the dies that were prepared for the various mints, so you can see, for example, that double eagle dies were prepared for New Orleans in a particular year, but no double eagles were struck in that year.
It's interesting to see when dies were created, but not used, and also, when dies for certain denomination were not created.
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<< <i>The 1849 Double Eagle.
There were supposed to one gold example and one gold platted copper piece extant in the 1800s. The gold coin was said to have been in the estate of a former secretary of the Treasury named Merridith which was handled by a 19th dealer named Nagey. The coin, as the story goes dropped out of the sight in the 1890s. What happened to it? Who knows? It might out there somewhere; it could have lost; or it could have been turned in to the Government in 1933. There were stories of Pan Pac $50 gold coins in the pile to be melted.
Bill, I saw the 1849 Double Eagle @ the Smithsonian in 1966. Also saw an 1894 S Dime there.
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<< <i>The 1804 half dollar. Two 1804 dated obverse working dies were made, and at least one reverse working die was available that was carried over to 1805. Not only two 1804 obverse dies were made, but they were from two different master dies and hubs, as Robert Scot modified the half dollar obverse master die. The two obverse dies were seen overdated for 1805/4 O101, 102, and 103.
Why would they make two 1804 half dollar obverse dies? They probably struck some 1804 half dollars. There were no recorded annual mintages at that time, only records of deliveries, which could include coins dated in the previous year to when they were delivered, as were the 19,570 dollars delivered in 1804 that were certainly dated 1803. >>
Here is a picture of my "1804 half dollar":
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i>The 1849 Double Eagle.
There were supposed to one gold example and one gold platted copper piece extant in the 1800s. The gold coin was said to have been in the estate of a former secretary of the Treasury named Merridith which was handled by a 19th dealer named Nagey. The coin, as the story goes dropped out of the sight in the 1890s. What happened to it? Who knows? It might out there somewhere; it could have lost; or it could have been turned in to the Government in 1933. There were stories of Pan Pac $50 gold coins in the pile to be melted.
Bill, I saw the 1849 Double Eagle @ the Smithsonian in 1966. Also saw an 1894 S Dime there. >>
Yes, I know about the only one that is known, which is in the Smithsonian, but Keets made the following proviso at the top of the string:
<< <i>Any examples held in a Mint collection or at the Smithsonian wouldn't count as still existing. >>
It had nothing to do with stamps (unlike the trime, of course).
(I expect CaptHenway to be along shortly to say: "Mr. Burdette has a good theory. There are other theories as to what really happened.")
Commercial plug: Roger summarizes the Journal of Numismatic Research in this article from the E-Sylum. You can purchase issues of the Journal of Numismatic Research from Wizard Coin Supply.
Don't be an out-of-date numismatic fuddy duddy. Read the latest high quality research!
(Whether you subscribe to Cable TV or Direct TV is up to you!)
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<< <i>Actually, Roger Burdette wrote an excellent (and well documented) article in the fourth issue of his Journal of Numismatic Research explaining why the $3 denomination was minted.
It had nothing to do with stamps (unlike the trime, of course).
(I expect CaptHenway to be along shortly to say: "Mr. Burdette has a good theory. There are other theories as to what really happened.")
Commercial plug: Roger summarizes the Journal of Numismatic Research in this article from the E-Sylum. You can purchase issues of the Journal of Numismatic Research from Wizard Coin Supply.
Don't be an out-of-date numismatic fuddy duddy. Read the latest high quality research!
(Whether you subscribe to Cable TV or Direct TV is up to you!) >>
Chill, Dave. Roger and I get along quite well, even though we occasionally disagree on a few things. He doesn't need you to defend him.
He has produced tons of good work based on solid research into the Mint's archives. I just happen to be a cynic who does not think that the Mint was above lying in its archives, having been lied to by the Mint in modern times. I reserve the right to maintain my own opinion about certain things.
TD
Actually, I was expecting you to reply with:
Mr. Burdette has a good theory. There are other theories as to what really happened. - followed by a
(It's so hard to express humor in writing sometimes. I thought I was giving you a great straight line set-up. Oh, well.)
On a serious note: you're not the only cynic. However, a more expansive post (especially from someone who has first-hand experience to share) is always better than a short answer.
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