1864 O-FR Cap and Rays 8 reales NGC 67

Greig

For the Mexican collectors (and anyone with an eye for remarkable mint state coins):

Stacks Bowers is auctioning one of only 6 Mexican Cap and Rays 8 reales that NGC has graded at MS67: a 1864 O FR. The coin is also WINGS approved. I hope someone more skilled than I am can link the auction lot (No. 30103 of the forthcoming December 2014 Macau sale) in a post.

Stacks is also selling an NGC 66 1875 Go FR Cap and Rays 8 reales as the next lot in the same auction (also WINGS approved).

Our hosts have never graded a Cap and Rays 8 reales as MS 67; only one at MS 66+ and 27 others at MS 66.

I wonder if the 1864 O FR would cross? It is a strikingly beautiful coin and I expect it will approach $10K.

Sadly, not my $10K...

StrikeOutXXX

Wow, I have an 1884Z 8R in MS-64, but pales in comparison to the 1864 - I'm not a super fan of the 1875.

Here they are:

OriginalDan

Not really a fan of either one.

marcmoish

pics are too big to appreciate - reduce the size - they look fantastic!

bidask

Those big pics show some chatter in the field under the eagle's left wing.

coinkat

Wow- should be interesting

WorldCoinsDmitry

The 1864 may not have gotten MS-67 if it were from one of the generally better struck mints, but this is a fantastic piece coming from the Oaxaca mint. A pleasure seeing it, thanks for posting

lordmarcovan

The eagle side on that 1864 is awesome.

CoinRaritiesOnline

Great news Greig - it hammered for 5250.

NiceCurrency

wings?

Boosibri

<< <i>wings? >>



Never liked that show

LochNESS

Wow that is a bright coin. My first reaction is "fabulous" because I love big, bright silvery coins. My second thought - what's going on around 10 o'clock on the reverse? near the holder tab? Looks like some yellow goo. Same discoloration seems to be around 1 o'clock though smaller area. Any thoughts?

MrEureka

The 1864 looks much better in hand than in that huge image. Great coin!

The 1875 is attractive, but I thought it had too much chatter under the toning to make the grade. Obviously, I was wrong.

coinkat

I would have suspected a higher hammer for this one. A later date from the 1890s I would place in the $4500-5500 range in 67.

Boosibri

<< <i>I would have suspected a higher hammer for this one. A later date from the 1890s I would place in the $4500-5500 range in 67. >>



Seems to suggest that there were some questions about if this was a true 67.

marcmoish

Seems to suggest that there were some questions about if this was a true 67.

bingo!

Was told it’s a 66 in pcgs - and who cares if its wings approved? - I just noticed that - like really?

Proves they were wrong here - big time! Hehe


Andy you were NOT wrong on the 1875 – I question that grade too - why would you second guess your opinion?

oh hmm that one has a wings sticky too

Yes I love them both - they are equally spectacular but that's besides the point.


P.S. trying to generate some fireworks here

coinkat

I did not see the coin in hand. I am not doubting that the coin is worthy of a 67. What I will say is that this series is a challenge to grade. Unfortunately, the series has issues in terms of quality of the dies and the strike which widely varies over it's long history depending on the mint. A 21st century collector with the benefit of hindsight looks at a coin like this 8R 1864 O-FR without an adequate appreciation for what a wonder this coin really is. Folks, its not an 1881-s Morgan... A 67 8R is different and in its own league.

bidask

I picked this one up this year.

Abuelo

@bidask, what is on the leg of the eagle? Just toning?

bidask

@Abuelo said:
@bidask, what is on the leg of the eagle? Just toning?

Yes

Abuelo

Thank you @bidask , fabulous coin.

cecropiamoth

I picked up this date earlier this year also in NGC 66. I don't know if this will cross, but I would love to get it into a PCGS 66 holder. I just have the Heritage images for now.

Jeff

scubafuel

Jeff, beautiful coin! From the same dies as the OP coin it looks like. Wonder if there was a mini board of this date?
Are the marks through the rays and the cap all pre-strike? Hard to tell from the pics.

cecropiamoth

Thanks @scubafuel !!!

The originally posted coin and mine both have that bold and complete die crack from the rim going right alongside the B and ending at the eagle's wing. Now bidask's coin looks (to me) to have the beginnings of that crack going from the rim to the top of the B. Now the originally posted coin also looks to have faint clashing on the reverse showing show rays from the obverse in the same general area of the die crack. Now I'm no die stage expert, but could we say here that the images shown represent an early-mid die state, then a mid-late die state and then finally a late die state?

The marks on the obverse of my coin, three or four prominent ones at the lower end of the cap and rays I have always assumed were pre-strike adjustment marks. But, I'll admit that I have seen a lot of coinage with adjustment marks...I know late 18th century larger US silver issues were know for adjustment marks. If NGC determined they were post mint damage, then the 66 grade would have been a no go. The other thing, and perhaps @Abuelo can weigh in, I remember reading in Resplandores that Oaxaca was very particular about their planchet weights and as a result so many of the Oaxaca 8 reales show adjustment marks.

Resplandores also stated that their were two Oaxaca mints, one which turned out really nice coins. The coins in this post must have come from that Oaxaca mint. I don't have the reference with me now, but much information is given regarding the two Oaxaca mints that operated 1861-1864.

Jeff

Abuelo

Yes, Resplandores hypothesized that there are 2 mints. I do not know if that was ever proved. One needs to remember than in the early 1860s Oaxaca was a small village, at best, and frequent target of both, the end of the War of 3 Years as well as the French Invasion. Do I believe there were 2 mints? I do not know but I would be shocked given the size of the village. I would not be surprised if sometime, they got new equipment in the one, and both minted at the same time. Overall, I am always surprised that Oaxaca was able to mint anything, period. And quality pieces? That is what is beyond my understanding. But the 8 reales from Oaxaca can be very interesting, and occasionally very nice.

Abuelo

Coincidentally, Mexican Coin Company has right now an interesting selection of 8 reales oaxaqueños.

asheland

Very nice examples here!

CIVITAS

Our MS-65 appears to be from the same die pair as well.

cecropiamoth

@CIVITAS Very nice, CIVITAS. There is that bold die crack again!

Disappointing season in Mad Town, eh? (I live in Waukesha.)

Jeff

bidask

@CIVITAS said:
Our MS-65 appears to be from the same die pair as well.

Could not find that coin on your website ?

CIVITAS

Dan, try this link

civitasgalleries.com/cgi/store/commerce.cgi?product=World_Coins&keywords=mexico+1864+oaxaca&search_request_button=+Search+