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Dealer vs. Collector at a coin show who has the upper hand?
BWCoin
Posts: 92
I love coin shows but I've always felt that the dealers have the upper had in terms of coin pricing. When I look at an auction or a coin online I can look up past auction prices, the PCGS price guide or other resources. However when I'm standing at a dealer's table I feel like the dealer has the upper had as the collector can't easily and quickly look up all those other sources of pricing data. Knowledge is power for coin pricing. So here is the question. Who has the upper hand at a coin show a dealer or a collector?
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The dealer wants you to trade your cash for his merchandise. The collector controls that decision.....
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Tyler
It really depends on the coin that is being sold. Super rare cool stuff aint easy to figure out. An uneducated buyer will have a lot frustrations to deal with - price guide says this, auction records say that, friends say this, etc etc.
It all boils down you have to pay up for the right coin. "pay up" isn't listed in any price guide. The trick is figuring out the right coin.
Generally speaking, as I believe that is the context of your question, collectors have more data points than ever before, which certainly helps with specific coins.
The exception to that is a dealer who knows he/she has a coin where there is more than one immediate buyer.
The person with the most knowledge and cash to spend will always have the advantage, in my opinion it really doesn't matter if that person is a dealer or a collector......
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
When I go to the trouble to set up at a show I intend to sell merchandise and adjust accordingly.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Who has the upper hand at a coin show a dealer or a collector? >>
Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, but clearly the answer (in simple terms) is BOTH
The dealer has the "upper hand" in that he/she sets the price and may or may not negotiate with you.
The collector however has the power to walk away and as such a dealer may return home with most his wares if prices are too high.
<< <i>However when I'm standing at a dealer's table I feel like the dealer has the upper had as the collector can't easily and quickly look up all those other sources of pricing data. >>
Before I even head to a large show I spend some time the night before going over recent realized prices for coins/items I'm interested in. If I see something I want in a case and don't know immediately what the going rate is I'll simply wander off and research the item(s) from a distance before going back to the table and talking turkey
But if the dealer has no food on the table, the collector has the upper hand.
And if the collector has no food on the table, well, the dealer won't be making a sale.
Hoard the keys.
The dealer has likely had numerous interactions with other potential buyers on the very coin you are seeing for the first time. Those odds favor the dealer as they know what hasn't worked so far. They probably also know what they could have sold the coin for already. You have no way of knowing any of that information. And it doesn't mean they will lower their price for you, though the odds increase as the weeks go on.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Does one or the other have to have the "upper hand"? The question implies an adversarial relationship in which one party wins and the other loses, and I don't think it has to be that way. >>
Well said. It's obvious that for some the only important consideration is the bottom line.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Does one or the other have to have the "upper hand"? The question implies an adversarial relationship in which one party wins and the other loses, and I don't think it has to be that way. >>
I also concur with this viewpoint. However, browsing at a coin show and making an impulse purchase is not likely provide the buyer good value for his/her money. And there is nothing wrong in asking a dealer to provide some comps that justify his pricing.
OINK
<< <i>Does one or the other have to have the "upper hand"? The question implies an adversarial relationship in which one party wins and the other loses, and I don't think it has to be that way. >>
Sure, why not. Give EVERYONE a prize so we ALL can be winners
Not all coins go up in the value all the time. There are going to be winners and losers, the OP is probing for how to be a winner.
known reputation. I came across something he had that I wasn't particularly looking for but would be a nice addition for my type set. When I got home and researched what I
paid vs the going prices, I felt like I should have called the police and told them I was raped. I was insanely angry but at the time but wasn't as confrontational as I find myself
nowadays. I chose to just keep it and take it as a lesson learned. As time went on I actually hated the coin. I eventually consigned it and it sold for an $1,100 loss.
So who has the upper hand? I think the answer is if the collector has good knowledge of current prices then it's even. If you stray from what know into the unknown, then it's the
it depends on the dealer. If it's a fair dealer you're even but you might not even know it. If it's one like I described above then it's over.
Arm yourself with knowledge.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Why can't there be a mutually cooperative, win-win situation? >>
There usually is, TomB. But for whatever reason there is a large contingency of "followers" of the hobby who think " one vs. the other", and it's a battle of sorts. The very idea of "vs." is adversarial in linguistics.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Why can't there be a mutually cooperative, win-win situation? >>
I think there can be...assuming both sides are equally armed. But considering the dealer has considerably more knowledge than 90% of the coin buying public, it's hard to get a win-win when buyers don't know what they are really buying (holders included). From my own experiences buying from hundreds of dealers over the past 45 years, I think most dealers view a transaction as a win from their side side. They rarely think or even care about what a win might mean to a collector. In my formative years I felt >90% of the dealers I contacted were basically just out to profit from me. Heck, the entire 1974-1986 coin era was about dealers screwing collectors to the wall. Yes, there were your 10% exceptions to this rule...such as a Dave Akers building the Pogue collection. But, convince me why the 90-10 rule from years past would now be 50-50 or better today. Do most used car dealers typically play out win-win scenarios between themselves and customers? I don't think so. I've been on both sides of the tables so it's not like I have a particular axe to grind.
I can recall my first set of mail bids at one of the biggest auction houses in 1976. I won nearly every lot I bid on...because I believed the descriptions. Weren't they trying for a Win-Win? Hardly. I had to return every lot I had "won" and they were royally ticked off. Their president said I should never bid again without seeing lots first. I agreed. I didn't buy from them again for 12 years when they finally moved their auctions closer to me. Another major rare coin dealer in 1983 sent me a $3,000 gem 1858-0 quarter that was a cleaned and stripped AU55 worth at most $300-$500. Weren't they trying for a Win-Win? Hardly. I do recall Brad Bonhert from Superior in 1984 finding me a neat couple of seated coins coming up in their auctions. He even sent them to me beforehand and they were wonderful gems. That was the good 10%....and so scarce in that era. I have 9 hair-curling stories for every one that worked out ok. I was actively trying to weed out that 90%....lol. Slabbing has hardly become the panacea to ensure win-win scenario's. But working with dealers like CRO, TomB, and others will certainly help.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why can't there be a mutually cooperative, win-win situation? >>
I think there can be...assuming both sides are equally armed. But considering the dealer has considerably more knowledge than 90% of the coin buying public, it's hard to get a win-win when buyers don't know what they are really buying (holders included). From my own experiences buying from hundreds of dealers over the past 45 years, I think most dealers view a transaction as a win from their side side. They rarely think or even care about what a win might mean to a collector. In my formative years I felt >90% of the dealers I contacted were basically just out to profit from me. Heck, the entire 1974-1986 coin era was about dealers screwing collectors to the wall. Yes, there were your 10% exceptions to this rule...such as a Dave Akers building the Pogue collection. But, convince me why the 90-10 rule from years past would now be 50-50 or better today. Do most used car dealers typically play out win-win scenarios between themselves and customers? I don't think so. I've been on both sides of the tables so it's not like I have a particular axe to grind.
I can recall my first set of mail bids at one of the biggest auction houses in 1976. I won nearly every lot I bid on...because I believed the descriptions. Weren't they trying for a Win-Win? Hardly. I had to return every lot I had "won" and they were royally ticked off. Their president said I should never bid again without seeing lots first. I agreed. I didn't buy from them again for 12 years when they finally moved their auctions closer to me. Another major rare coin dealer in 1983 sent me a $3,000 gem 1858-0 quarter that was a cleaned and stripped AU55 worth at most $300-$500. Weren't they trying for a Win-Win? Hardly. I do recall Brad Bonhert from Superior in 1984 finding me a neat couple of seated coins coming up in their auctions. He even sent them to me beforehand and they were wonderful gems. That was the good 10%....and so scarce in that era. I have 9 hair-curling stories for every one that worked out ok. I was actively trying to weed out that 90%....lol. Slabbing has hardly become the panacea to ensure win-win scenario's. But working with dealers like CRO, TomB, and others will certainly help. >>
I was playing nice with my first reply in this thread as I thought we were talking widgets. Widgets are easy and I can see where seated quarters and high end material can be a mine field.
Dealers have to put steak on the table and they need collectors to buy their products. The better the salesman the more he makes. You walk into a car dealership and every every car on the lot can be sold by any sales person on the staff. The cars are all open game yet at the end of the month you will have a top salesman and a bottom salesman with the rest in between. Why don't they all have the exact same number of sales? Because some are much better at there jobs than others. Over the years I have noticed a pretty big difference between local regional coin shows and the big coin show circuit. Collectors let these over priced dealers get away with it and fail to realize they are buried until they go to resell the coin of there dreams. While I do not believe it is 90/10 it for sure is not 10/90. It is a buyer beware game and a lot of collectors fail to grasp that aspect, those that do can learn to navigate the course over time while others put lobster on the tables.
The first national show I went to really was an eye opener. I was into quarters at the time and I had been looking foreward to seeing the rockstar in this area. I located his table and walked briskly to feast my eyes on what was surely going to be the finest collection of standing liberty quarters being offered at one time anywhere. I knew his prices were steep but I had figured that was because he had such a great eye and quarters where going to be in a league all by themselves. Took about 3 minutes for my bubble to be busted. lol I was majorly disappointed that the dealer was sitting at a table with his back to the crowd and his assistant doing all the work. I asked to see what they had in a certain date in AU and raw. The assistant pulled out a roll of the date I asked for and said my choice at around 500 bucks. My mind was racing as I had done some research and figured the going price should be in the 175 to 225 range, but I was still open to the thought his coins would be head and shoulders above what the masses would have. I realized in quick time that my quarters were as nice or better than what this dealer had in the grades I was collecting. Some collectors do not see it and some take a long time to see it. I figured it out with less than 10k in tution.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>This always comes down to the same thing: trust, or lack of it. Back in 2004 I got burned by a well respected dealer at ANA Pittsburgh. I blindly trusted him just because of his well
known reputation. I came across something he had that I wasn't particularly looking for but would be a nice addition for my type set. When I got home and researched what I
paid vs the going prices, I felt like I should have called the police and told them I was raped. I was insanely angry but at the time but wasn't as confrontational as I find myself
nowadays. I chose to just keep it and take it as a lesson learned. As time went on I actually hated the coin. I eventually consigned it and it sold for an $1,100 loss.
So who has the upper hand? I think the answer is if the collector has good knowledge of current prices then it's even. If you stray from what know into the unknown, then it's the
it depends on the dealer. If it's a fair dealer you're even but you might not even know it. If it's one like I described above then it's over.
Arm yourself with knowledge. >>
Did you "buy" the coin or did he "sell" it to you? It makes a difference.
<< <i>Does one or the other have to have the "upper hand"? The question implies an adversarial relationship in which one party wins and the other loses, and I don't think it has to be that way. >>
Completely agree
Latin American Collection
The dealer who is well off cash flow wise has the upper hand. He is not going to give away material.
The shop dealer who pulls out his blue sheet when you offer him certified coins. You can sell at bluesheet or walk.
The dealer who has the only one (better date coin, rare / scarce banknote, etc.) in the room. The collector can pay his price or walk.
The collector who has his pick of multiple pieces from different dealers in the room has the advantage (he can simply walk around and probably find one at or near bid): 1881-S Dollars, 1924 Saints, etc
The seller (whether dealer or collector) who needs money has the lower hand. When set up at a show, I like to sell my coins on Saturday (stay behind the table), buy on Sunday (walk the floor).
The newbie collector weak on knowledge but hot to buy with lots of money to spend - disadvantage vs good salesman dealer.
If the asking price is fair I'll just buy it, if a bit high I'll try to negotiate hoping it's acceptable or we can meet somewhere in between that still makes sense.
It's not about upper or lower hands as it's more so about shaking hands, finalizing the deal, and walking away with both parties happy.
<< <i>When you first make eye contact with the dealer show him your 1879. $4 Stella Proof in a rattler slab with a CAC gold sticker. That should give you a fairly upper hand onward. >>
I don't know about the "upper hand" but it definitely will help as far as getting the dealer to understand you aren't messing around.
<< <i>
<< <i>When you first make eye contact with the dealer show him your 1879. $4 Stella Proof in a rattler slab with a CAC gold sticker. That should give you a fairly upper hand onward. >>
I don't know about the "upper hand" but it definitely will help as far as getting the dealer to understand you aren't messing around. >>
Showing off your $4 Stella tattoo would also state your serious w/o needing to drag the coin out of the SDB
Always the "collector". He gets to walk away happy even if he walks away without getting what he wanted. THE COLLECTOR rules the roost.
The dealer , on the other hand…. just gets to enjoy the ambience of the situation. Some having more fun than others.
On another note :
I miss this guy's "Upper Hand" around here sometimes…, though I can imagine this gesture "thought" in a few minds of those who just could not get a deal done, or could not come to a proper meeting of the minds.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>He who holds the asset with greater value. >>
Succinct and accurate. As usual.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>This always comes down to the same thing: trust, or lack of it. Back in 2004 I got burned by a well respected dealer at ANA Pittsburgh. I blindly trusted him just because of his well
known reputation. I came across something he had that I wasn't particularly looking for but would be a nice addition for my type set. When I got home and researched what I
paid vs the going prices, I felt like I should have called the police and told them I was raped. I was insanely angry but at the time but wasn't as confrontational as I find myself
nowadays. I chose to just keep it and take it as a lesson learned. As time went on I actually hated the coin. I eventually consigned it and it sold for an $1,100 loss.
So who has the upper hand? I think the answer is if the collector has good knowledge of current prices then it's even. If you stray from what know into the unknown, then it's the
it depends on the dealer. If it's a fair dealer you're even but you might not even know it. If it's one like I described above then it's over.
Arm yourself with knowledge. >>
Did you "buy" the coin or did he "sell" it to you? It makes a difference. >>
It really makes NO difference. A Win-Lose situation is still W-L. I suspect most W-L situations are from buyers with inadequate knowledge thinking they can compete or be safe. I see no difference in how they got there. If dealers were really out to make Win-Win transactions then the price of tuition wouldn't be as high as it is. Arm yourself with knowledge....and try to avoid all dealer purchases for the first several years while you are learning under a trusted mentor. Unless you're someone like Mark Emory (of Heritage) who once told me his first ever coin purchase was a superb gem 1917 T.1 quarter (which he made money on), chances are you'll be making many costly mistakes early on. Either that...or your name is Pogue.
<< <i>I love coin shows but I've always felt that the dealers have the upper had in terms of coin pricing. When I look at an auction or a coin online I can look up past auction prices, the PCGS price guide or other resources. However when I'm standing at a dealer's table I feel like the dealer has the upper had as the collector can't easily and quickly look up all those other sources of pricing data. Knowledge is power for coin pricing. So here is the question. Who has the upper hand at a coin show a dealer or a collector? >>
I take notes when I walk through the bourse. Eventually I take a break, get some food, and research anything I'm seriously interested in. Then I plan my attack so to speak. I have made some impulse buys like everyone, but now I seem to have a better handle on the emotion side of making a purchase. Very rarely do I return to a table to see the item I want is gone.
<< <i>When you first make eye contact with the dealer show him your 1879. $4 Stella Proof in a rattler slab with a CAC gold sticker. That should give you a fairly upper hand onward. >>
He'd argue that it's overCACd by a point!
<< <i>
<< <i>I love coin shows but I've always felt that the dealers have the upper had in terms of coin pricing. When I look at an auction or a coin online I can look up past auction prices, the PCGS price guide or other resources. However when I'm standing at a dealer's table I feel like the dealer has the upper had as the collector can't easily and quickly look up all those other sources of pricing data. Knowledge is power for coin pricing. So here is the question. Who has the upper hand at a coin show a dealer or a collector? >>
I take notes when I walk through the bourse. Eventually I take a break, get some food, and research anything I'm seriously interested in. Then I plan my attack so to speak. I have made some impulse buys like everyone, but now I seem to have a better handle on the emotion side of making a purchase. Very rarely do I return to a table to see the item I want is gone. >>
I find that if I have to spend more than a few minutes thinking about the coin, I shouldn't buy it. I have only about 35 coins in my collection, the barriers to entry are high.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This always comes down to the same thing: trust, or lack of it. Back in 2004 I got burned by a well respected dealer at ANA Pittsburgh. I blindly trusted him just because of his well
known reputation. I came across something he had that I wasn't particularly looking for but would be a nice addition for my type set. When I got home and researched what I
paid vs the going prices, I felt like I should have called the police and told them I was raped. I was insanely angry but at the time but wasn't as confrontational as I find myself
nowadays. I chose to just keep it and take it as a lesson learned. As time went on I actually hated the coin. I eventually consigned it and it sold for an $1,100 loss.
So who has the upper hand? I think the answer is if the collector has good knowledge of current prices then it's even. If you stray from what know into the unknown, then it's the
it depends on the dealer. If it's a fair dealer you're even but you might not even know it. If it's one like I described above then it's over.
Arm yourself with knowledge. >>
Did you "buy" the coin or did he "sell" it to you? It makes a difference. >>
It really makes NO difference. A Win-Lose situation is still W-L. I suspect most W-L situations are from buyers with inadequate knowledge thinking they can compete or be safe. I see no difference in how they got there. If dealers were really out to make Win-Win transactions then the price of tuition wouldn't be as high as it is. Arm yourself with knowledge....and try to avoid all dealer purchases for the first several years while you are learning under a trusted mentor. Unless you're someone like Mark Emory (of Heritage) who once told me his first ever coin purchase was a superb gem 1917 T.1 quarter (which he made money on), chances are you'll be making many costly mistakes early on. Either that...or your name is Pogue. >>
If you bought it of your own free will with no "insistence" from a/the dealer, you really have no cause to be unhappy with him if you end up dissatisfied with the purchase in the future. Many folks don't like to blame themselves if they make bad choices.
I have agonized over purchases at shows and rarely have I regretted the coins that required the thought. I have regretted some that I passed on and that just goes with the territory.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Does one or the other have to have the "upper hand"? The question implies an adversarial relationship in which one party wins and the other loses, and I don't think it has to be that way. >>
John, it depends on the dealer. Guys like you are fine. But I know of some dealers whose goal is to extract every last nickel from the retail buyer. I make a point of avoiding them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I look upon my purchases as investment, entertainment, historical learning, and social opportunity to interact with others who enjoy the same things I do.
I like to arm myself with knowledge. Most dealers I operate with realize I am not searching for an upper hand, but I am expecting to come to a deal with a sense of fairness. I want to own a coin I desire. They want to make enough money to bring me coins at the next show.
I feel OK with that . . . . . .
Drunner
Agreed. But, let's not keep talking about the "Win-Win" mentality dealers are supposedly striving for. Most love a clueless buyer who won't recognize a poor purchase until they try to sell it months or years later. The discussion I entered into was not about assigning blame, that's irrelevant. We're not ready to canonize the dealer community any time soon.
Probably 75-90% of forum members are well-schooled in the art of avoiding problem sellers. But, as a group might only make up <1% of the coin buying public.
<< <i>....If you bought it of your own free will with no "insistence" from a/the dealer, you really have no cause to be unhappy with him if you end up dissatisfied with the purchase in the future. Many folks don't like to blame themselves if they make bad choices.
Agreed. But, let's not keep talking about the "Win-Win" mentality dealers are supposedly striving for. Most love a clueless buyer who won't recognize a poor purchase until they try to sell it months or years later. The discussion I entered into was not about assigning blame, that's irrelevant. We're not ready to canonize the dealer community any time soon.
That is overly cynical, I like and trust the people I deal with. If I didn't I wouldn't deal with them. Collecting is a hobby, if you don't enjoy it and the network you work with, why bother.
Latin American Collection
Overly cynical doesn't make it false. I too like the people I generally deal with. I also realize that >90% of them have the potential to bury me if I don't know my stuff. I'd say 90% of the time I have the upper hand and know more about what I'm buying than the guy selling it. I'm happy to do business with those people. It's the other 10% I have to be cautious with. And if you're a newbie (<5-10 yrs experience), you're on the flip side of this equation where >90% have the advantage over you. I've always enjoyed the hobby, but there were numerous hard knocks and costly lessons over the decades. The newbies shouldn't have to go through that....but they still do. I've only got one go-to dealer who I trust implicitly. That took over 20 years to build. And they are not a retailer, just a sharp wholesaler. I can list dozens of top retailers out there who are trust-worthy... but that doesn't mean I can't be underwater 20-40% on a purchase at any time. Not my definition of Win-Win. And one shouldn't have to wait 5-10 years on a coin to break even....to "enjoy" the "hobby." What do they say in nuclear weapons stock piling? Ah yes, "Trust....but Verify." And as a non-professional, if you can't verify >90% of the time, how can you truly trust??
I've seen thousands of coins that I'll inspect, value in my head, then ask the Dealer where he/she needs to be on it. At this moment it's the Dealers sale to complete. His next act determines the final outcome.
<< <i>Why can't there be a mutually cooperative, win-win situation? >>
this is the only way i desire to do things.
we need dealers to want us to come back and to not give us resistance when looking through stock or pricing items and they need us to come back and buy/trade/sell more.
i picked up very early on that looking through a dealers stock is personal and intimate. a lot of trust is involved, especially after some of the stories they've told me. yikes.
both have the upper hand and if both don't lower their hands, no one is getting anything but conversation, although those can be great too!
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