<< <i>I saw that, completely inappropriate abuse of power.
Guilty until proven innocent >>
"Guilty until proven innocent" has long been the IRS mantra. That agency is as close as we have to a Gestapo in The United States. Their power is almost infinite, and in my view excessive with a distinct lack of a accountability.
Corrupt, dishonest presidents have used it to harass who disagreed with them. Richard Nixon did, and the press nailed him because of a visceral dislike many of them had for the man and his party affiliation. Obama is now using it, and he has been getting away with it because the press likes his politics and has a huge investment in him and his presidency.
Good citizens will wake up and take a strong stand on this issue. Bad ones will hide behind their political party and watch things deteriorate. And yes, I'm a 65 year old baby boomer, who used to be a Democrat, so you can judge my opinions from that if you are so inclined.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Welcome to the new guy/gal. Thanks for joining Not that this thread is "on topic" but it is very relevant and important in the scope of FAIR TAX CODE, and it is fair.
Thats nothing compared to what the DOJ can do with a RICO violation. They take everything.
There was a business owner in Minnesota that lost almost $12 million in property including homes and commercial establishments because he was found to be selling 4 items (out of more than 5000) deemed "obscene" at trial.
<< <i>I have been enjoying this forum for years but just had to reply to this thread. I am a tax accountant, was an Internal Revenue Agent for over 15 years, and had a case just like this 2 years ago. My client owned a gas station grocery store and took in lots of cash from migrant workers who purchased money orders to send back home. He always deposited just under $10000 in cash to avoid the bank reporting this to the IRS. I did not do his work until his accountant contacted me and told me his bank account of $55000 was seized and the IRS & the US Attorney's office were assessing a $645000 fee plus penalties. They were even considering criminal charges. This client had reported all his income but the deposits were considered "Structuring" by the IRS. We tried to find an attorney that would represent him before the US Attorney's office but the minimum retainer was $40000. He asked me to do it alone since I had worked with the US Attorney's office when I was with the IRS. After several meetings we resolved the issue but the client did have to let the IRS keep $45000 and he was returned $10000. All other assessments and penalties were dropped. He was out $45000 but would have paid an attorney at least $40000 (the retainer) without knowing what else he would be responsible for.
I think the forum is great and will try and start participating in it. My favorite collectible coins are Early Commemoratives and Civil war tokens. >>
Welcome aboard.
I don't know much about the case at hand but there have been hundreds of cases of such confiscations in the last few decades. The first I recall was a woman caught transporting money to buy a house in NJ who had the cash seized because dog hand- lers thought their dogs smelled drugs on the loot. Of course drugs are everywhere and about a quarter of all currency has residue of cocaine on it.
It seems that if they are concerned about "structuring" then the simple solution is to reduce the requirement. We're getting pretty close to the day the government knows every time we buy a stick of gum anyway. Just keep lowering it until they don't care about structuring.
We have lost many of our individual rights in the name of a "war on drugs". Maybe a few self inflicted deaths aren't as valuable as the millions of brave people who died es- tablishing those rights. Maybe those people who died believed people had a right to kill themselves with drugs.
cause last time I looked this was a COIN FORUM not some political forum for those who sit and gripe but do nothing to solve the issue they gripe about >>
It has quite a lot to do with coins and small business actually. When I was dealer I frequently made bank deposits that were under $10,000. I didn't want the money to lay around the house, and I had to keep it moving. Thank goodness I didn't wake up one day to find my bank account drained with the possibility of having passed bad checks as a result. You don't know that that can do to your reputation in the coin business. Years of a carefully cultivated reputation can go down the drain in an instant.
The issue IRS heavy handedness is very important to coin dealers and other small business. Rightly or wrongly the coin and bullion business has long been associated with tax evasion and money laundering in the eyes of some people. The honest coin dealer should not be subjected to threats and actions from the IRS when there is no probable cause and no sanction or protection from the judicial system.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I know that forfeiture law is necessarily broad and treated differently in criminal cases, but in instances in which there is evidence or probable cause to suggest that a crime has been committed, it strikes me as odd that the law hasn't been invalidated as running afoul of federal due process protections.
<< <i>"Guilty until proven innocent" has long been the IRS mantra. That agency is as close as we have to a Gestapo in The United States. Their power is almost infinite, and in my view excessive with a distinct lack of a accountability.
Corrupt, dishonest presidents have used it to harass who disagreed with them. Richard Nixon did, and the press nailed him because of a visceral dislike many of them had for the man and his party affiliation. Obama is now using it, and he has been getting away with it because the press likes his politics and has a huge investment in him and his presidency.
Good citizens will wake up and take a strong stand on this issue. Bad ones will hide behind their political party and watch things deteriorate. And yes, I'm a 65 year old baby boomer, who used to be a Democrat, so you can judge my opinions from that if you are so inclined. >>
I doubt that Obama is "using the IRS" like you suggest. It's become a monster that is beyond the president's control.
At this point, a "strong stand" on these issues is akin to revolution, as neither of the political parties have any interest in working on them. The problem remains greed and the cult of worship of the almighty dollar.
I do appreciate the media exposing things for what they are, and this is probably the best action. Hopefully the public can still get outraged every now and then.
<< <i>Not surprising. You can also be confined for 21 days if you are guilty of having a fever. >>
Maybe I am misinterpreting your post, but your hyperbole is grossly inaccurate. You can be confined for 21 days if you have a fever and have had DIRECT CONTACT with individuals infected with ebola in West Africa. Since a fever is a symptom, the policy seems rational. I won't comment - to avoid getting into politics - of the application of the policy to individuals who have had contact with patients but fail to present with symptoms (and are not contagious at the time).
<< <i>I know that forfeiture law is necessarily broad and treated differently in criminal cases, but in instances in which there is evidence or probable cause to suggest that a crime has been committed, it strikes me as odd that the law hasn't been invalidated as running afoul of federal due process protections. >>
For whatever reason when comes to the IRS, you guilty until proven innocent. That is, of course, the opposite of what the U.S. legal system is supposed to be about.
I've known people who were accused by the IRS, spent many thousands of dollars to defend themselves, and then were told by the IRS, "Our mistake," now many thousands of dollars poorer.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>It has quite a lot to do with coins and small business actually. When I was dealer I frequently made bank deposits that were under $10,000. I didn't want the money to lay around the house, and I had to keep it moving. Thank goodness I didn't wake up one day to find my bank account drained with the possibility of having passed bad checks as a result. You don't know that that can do to your reputation in the coin business. Years of a carefully cultivated reputation can go down the drain in an instant.
The issue IRS heavy handedness is very important to coin dealers and other small business. Rightly or wrongly the coin and bullion business has long been associated with tax evasion and money laundering in the eyes of some people. The honest coin dealer should not be subjected to threats and actions from the IRS when there is no probable cause and no sanction or protection from the judicial system. >>
I have a great deal of respect and admiration for anyone that can operate a small business. There is such a great deal of Byzantine paperwork and risk, and I really do root for these people to succeed. Especially with coin dealing, where there is such a danger in transporting goods, getting burned with counterfeits, stolen merchandise, or illegal imports. The extra burden of an overly complex and predatory tax system seems quite unfair.
For those of you who have an interest in the topic of civil asset forfeiture, the Langbord lawsuit over the 10 1933 double eagles involves that topic. The trial court decision on the 2000 CAFRA statutes on civil asset forfeiture was interesting and the upcoming 3rd District Court Of Appeal decision on the Langbord appeal will also be very interesting. How it handles the CAFRA issues, including the how, and when the death penalty provision of CAFRA should apply will be looked at by all people who participate in this area.
Nothing to do with coins, a whole lot to do with the proceeds from coin sales, something many forum members are involved with. >>
There are actually several ways to get a coin collection confiscated now days. If the government can show you found a coin on government (or native American) owned land then they can take your entire collection since it too might have come from metal detecting.
Now all of a sudden the US is signatory to all sorts of draconian laws written by foreign governments and by the UN. If you own ancient Greek coins or Egyptian coins, for instance, you may be required to prove lawful ownership all the time back to when they were issued. Of course no coin can be traced back more than about 300 years so it effectively can make it illegal to own, buy, or sell, ancients. Egy- ptian "ancients", I believe, are any dated before about 1938.
Individual rights and private property are outdated concepts.
I enjoyed your post on the IRS seizure of cash from "structuring" deposits under the $10,000 threshold. I am curious, how the IRS determines that "structuring" has occurred? Isn't it possible that a business always has less cash to deposit on a daily or weekly basis than 10K?
I work in the payroll business and have worked with the IRS a lot, but generally only with payroll related taxes.
Anyway, maybe someday if I have an IRS question(s) we can trade advice for coins?
<< <i>He added that making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements, called structuring, is still a crime whether the money is from legal or illegal sources.
Nothing new here. Many, including a number of people involved in numismatics, are involved in structuring activities to avoid filing the 8300 forms. A number of such folks probably either under-report or do not report their income to the IRS. The 8300 form requirement form is to make it more difficult for those engaged in illegal activities, and also to make it more difficult for those who deal in cash to under-report / not report their income to the IRS.
I remember the large number of people on this forum who were 'unhappy' about the prospect of E-bay filing 1099-K forms to E-Bay sellers whose activity exceeded a certain amount. Coincidence?
The problem is that there aren't enough competent IRS employees, and / or supervisors of such employees, to distinguish between companies involved in normal business practices, and structuring transactions. And people being people, they make mistakes. Do you think the TPGs get it right all of the time? I have some ocean-front property in Oklahoma I can sell you.
We all know that many are drawn to businesses that are cash based because they don't want to report their earnings to the government. Depending on the under-reported amount, this is either a misdemeanor, or a felony. That means that income taxes are higher for the rest of us.
Go ahead and flame me about this. I don't care. >>
Don't know if I saw it here or heard it from someone at my bank, but most 8300s never get any attention, but SARs Suspicious Activity Reports are investigated. >>
In many circumstances, filing 8300 forms are a good way not to have an SAR generated in the first place.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I believe the IRS considers "Structuring" when deposits of just under $10000 are made on a frequent recurring basis. If it is not over a period of time they would probably not consider "Structuring". I believe some banks even warn their customers that they are making deposits that IRS may consider the "Structuring" issue. In my client's case it was almost a daily occurance for a very long time...only because he had lots of migrants sending money orders back home to family and they paid for the money orders with cash.
I believe that this information is very important to coin dealers, especially those that handle numerous bullion sales. I have several coin dealers for clients and this issue along with the issue of determining inventory are two very important areas of concern. You would be amazed at the number of dealers that only take a guess at what there inventory is and this is not acceptable by th IRS.
I would be happy to try and answer any questions that concern you. I think this forum is very informative to all member collectors.
I wish I had cash for them to seize. If you're talking presidential dollars, they're $3 each. Shipping and handling is extra.
These are ungraded beauties. (except for the ones that the mint screwed up which is about 78% for the every day collector , and 92% for the cherry pickers, respectively. This leaves four decent coins out of 2 rolls purchased at 40% over face value ). And remember, you can order direct from
USMINT.GOV
This post was brought to you by the promoter of coins and collecting for the sake of having some fun.
If you have questions you may use the private message function and we can discuss WAR OF THE WORLDS by H.G. Wells as dramatized and presented by Orson Welles in 1938.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. The big bad wolf is coming to get you.
<< <i> Now all of a sudden the US is signatory to all sorts of draconian laws written by foreign governments and by the UN. If you own ancient Greek coins or Egyptian coins, for instance, you may be required to prove lawful ownership all the time back to when they were issued. Of course no coin can be traced back more than about 300 years so it effectively can make it illegal to own, buy, or sell, ancients. Egy- ptian "ancients", I believe, are any dated before about 1938. >>
That's not at all accurate. Yes, the rules and import restrictions have gotten more complicated but a pedigree back to 1970 is basically guaranteed to be okay, and for most coins, a pedigree stating that a coin was outside of Greece/Italy in 2011 is fine. Even then, the import restrictions only affect a small range of coins overall and some of the rationale isn't that unreasonable.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
<< <i>Gotta say, when I was coin roll hunting on a regular, heavy basis, I was moving the same $5k through my account a couple dozen times a month. In one month, I think I racked up $120k in cash deposits. I didn't hear nothing from anybody about that. >>
Didn't you also have $120,000 in withdrawals? Looks like they just canceled each other out.
I believe the IRS considers "Structuring" when deposits of just under $10000 are made on a frequent recurring basis. If it is not over a period of time they would probably not consider "Structuring". >>
As I understand it, the above is correct.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>In credible, did you make note that since this amazing violation of our rights was performed and now publicized the IRS will supposedly not do it anymore......wow! >>
Do you really think you have rights in this country anymore?? >>
losing it left and right. we are right in connecticut
<< <i>I doubt that Obama is "using the IRS" like you suggest. It's become a monster that is beyond the president's control. >>
And if the Tsar only knew how much we are suffering, he would do something about it ...
That comment strains credibility.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
One of my friends posted this article and Facebook and I made this comment over there to a much different audience. Most people don’ understand the significance of the $10,000 cash figure and what really happens. If you spend more than 10k a form 8300 gets filled out, it gets reported to the IRS. More than likely if all of your dealings are kosher it will never be looked at by anyone and your life will go on no problem. On the other hand if a suspicious activity report (SAR) is filed, they will at a minimum look into whether it is really suspicious. If it is it will be researched. It may seem like you are getting ambushed but it is absolutely illegal to disclose to the person you are writing up that you filed the SAR report. Whether it is your intention to evade or not, they will start to look at your other transactions and if they see a pattern, the IRS will act. Many of these people even say that they set their deposit threshold at 10k because they didn’t want a report. If the business is a restaurant they will likely have large deposits of small bills which is exactly what would come from a drug dealer as well. If you make it a habit to deposit whatever your receipts are for a given day/week there is a good chance that at least once in a while you will be over the threshold. In those cases, it is actually good to have an 8300 filed so that you can say I deposited what my receipts are and I was not actively avoiding the report. ICTA provides resources for people in our industry so people can learn how to obey the laws and not act suspicious. A majority of coin dealers who are getting busted are those who are actively trying to avoid the reporting requirement. They tend not to know they are busted until it is too late. The sad thing is if they were to deposit enough for an 8300 to be filed, nobody would have batted an eye. To the person who says they are only ensured up to 10k in cash I call BS. You can deposit 10k + one cent. That will put you over the threshold and you only have to risk 1 cent of uninsured money. If there is a lower limit like $8000 and you deposit less than that each time and you can show the agent the policy, there is a good chance they will back off. I spoke to ICTA’s AML consultant about this article and he put it best, the fastest way to get onto the governments radar is by NOT having any 8300 forms filed.
<< <i>Ignorance is bliss and I'm going to leave this thread before I make some enemies. >>
...or before it's poofed or locked...
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
Israel Switt was a smart coin dealer. He was rumored to say:
"OVER MY DEAD BODY", when someone said, "You're not going to be able to keep those coins.". But he proved them wrong, didn't he ? The government is still fighting about those coins, and it's over his dead body. Buncha bullies, anyway.
<< <i>Imagine some posters saying the Constitution doesn't matter ... the IRs doesn't affect them .. well what ya going to do when IRS takes you money? >>
Most of us recognize a rhetorical question. Though, the only answer is "PAY". The rules are simple enough. (okay that doesn't make the code simple). That's why it's called a 'CODE'.
the rules and import restrictions have gotten more complicated but a pedigree back to 1970 is basically guaranteed to be okay, and for most coins, a pedigree stating that a coin was outside of Greece/Italy in 2011 is fine.
How far back do you need to document any cash that you might have with you? How long a pedigree? Should the bank be certifying the serial number of every piece of currency that they hand out to you in some sort of receipt? Seems like that's the best solution for bank customers who deal in any significant amount of cash.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Imagine some posters saying the Constitution doesn't matter ... the IRs doesn't affect them .. well what ya going to do when IRS takes you money? >>
Most of us recognize a rhetorical question. Though, the only answer is "PAY". The rules are simple enough. (okay that doesn't make the code simple). That's why it's called a 'CODE'. >>
The law ,code don't matter to some IRS fools .. rules ?? who follows rules after IRS takes your bank account .. beware to doubters in years to come
Even the EPA says, they can level fines and just take the money out of your account before any legal findings that you are guilty
What most people have sadly forgotten today is this: We only have the rights we are willing to fight for. It is up to us as individuals to defend ourselves against a tyranical government.
This illegal seizure is just another example the Feds make it impossible for a small business to exist these days. Destroy small business and say good bye to the middle class.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
<< <i>I saw that, completely inappropriate abuse of power.
Guilty until proven innocent >>
"Guilty until proven innocent" has long been the IRS mantra. That agency is as close as we have to a Gestapo in The United States. Their power is almost infinite, and in my view excessive with a distinct lack of a accountability.
Corrupt, dishonest presidents have used it to harass who disagreed with them. Richard Nixon did, and the press nailed him because of a visceral dislike many of them had for the man and his party affiliation. Obama is now using it, and he has been getting away with it because the press likes his politics and has a huge investment in him and his presidency.
Good citizens will wake up and take a strong stand on this issue. Bad ones will hide behind their political party and watch things deteriorate. And yes, I'm a 65 year old baby boomer, who used to be a Democrat, so you can judge my opinions from that if you are so inclined.
Welcome to the new guy/gal. Thanks for joining
Not that this thread is "on topic" but it is very relevant and important in the scope of FAIR TAX CODE, and it is fair.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
There was a business owner in Minnesota that lost almost $12 million in property including homes and commercial establishments because he was found to be selling 4 items (out of more than 5000) deemed "obscene" at trial.
<< <i>I have been enjoying this forum for years but just had to reply to this thread. I am a tax accountant, was an Internal Revenue Agent for over 15 years, and had a case just like this 2 years ago. My client owned a gas station grocery store and took in lots of cash from migrant workers who purchased money orders to send back home. He always deposited just under $10000 in cash to avoid the bank reporting this to the IRS. I did not do his work until his accountant contacted me and told me his bank account of $55000 was seized and the IRS & the US Attorney's office were assessing a $645000 fee plus penalties. They were even considering criminal charges. This client had reported all his income but the deposits were considered "Structuring" by the IRS. We tried to find an attorney that would represent him before the US Attorney's office but the minimum retainer was $40000. He asked me to do it alone since I had worked with the US Attorney's office when I was with the IRS. After several meetings we resolved the issue but the client did have to let the IRS keep $45000 and he was returned $10000. All other assessments and penalties were dropped. He was out $45000 but would have paid an attorney at least $40000 (the retainer) without knowing what else he would be responsible for.
I think the forum is great and will try and start participating in it. My favorite collectible coins are Early Commemoratives and Civil war tokens. >>
Welcome aboard.
I don't know much about the case at hand but there have been hundreds of cases
of such confiscations in the last few decades. The first I recall was a woman caught
transporting money to buy a house in NJ who had the cash seized because dog hand-
lers thought their dogs smelled drugs on the loot. Of course drugs are everywhere and
about a quarter of all currency has residue of cocaine on it.
It seems that if they are concerned about "structuring" then the simple solution is to
reduce the requirement. We're getting pretty close to the day the government knows
every time we buy a stick of gum anyway. Just keep lowering it until they don't care
about structuring.
We have lost many of our individual rights in the name of a "war on drugs". Maybe a
few self inflicted deaths aren't as valuable as the millions of brave people who died es-
tablishing those rights. Maybe those people who died believed people had a right to kill
themselves with drugs.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
cause last time I looked this was a COIN FORUM not some political forum for those who sit and gripe but do nothing to solve the issue they gripe about
1997-present
US silver commemorative half-dollars for sale, graded PCGS MS65 at the link below
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YY2EBLnWL4y9DztZA
Millions for defence but not one cent for tribute!
-KHayse
<< <i>Not surprising. You can also be confined for 21 days if you are guilty of having a fever. >>
And heaven forbid if you have more than $500 in cash in your possession when you get that fever.
<< <i>Not surprising. You can also be confined for 21 days if you are guilty of having a fever. >>
There was a place called Ellis Island that served a purpose for many years.
It worked extremely well keeping diseases from affecting the Citizens.
<< <i>and this has to do with coins how again?
cause last time I looked this was a COIN FORUM not some political forum for those who sit and gripe but do nothing to solve the issue they gripe about >>
It has quite a lot to do with coins and small business actually. When I was dealer I frequently made bank deposits that were under $10,000. I didn't want the money to lay around the house, and I had to keep it moving. Thank goodness I didn't wake up one day to find my bank account drained with the possibility of having passed bad checks as a result. You don't know that that can do to your reputation in the coin business. Years of a carefully cultivated reputation can go down the drain in an instant.
The issue IRS heavy handedness is very important to coin dealers and other small business. Rightly or wrongly the coin and bullion business has long been associated with tax evasion and money laundering in the eyes of some people. The honest coin dealer should not be subjected to threats and actions from the IRS when there is no probable cause and no sanction or protection from the judicial system.
<< <i>"Guilty until proven innocent" has long been the IRS mantra. That agency is as close as we have to a Gestapo in The United States. Their power is almost infinite, and in my view excessive with a distinct lack of a accountability.
Corrupt, dishonest presidents have used it to harass who disagreed with them. Richard Nixon did, and the press nailed him because of a visceral dislike many of them had for the man and his party affiliation. Obama is now using it, and he has been getting away with it because the press likes his politics and has a huge investment in him and his presidency.
Good citizens will wake up and take a strong stand on this issue. Bad ones will hide behind their political party and watch things deteriorate. And yes, I'm a 65 year old baby boomer, who used to be a Democrat, so you can judge my opinions from that if you are so inclined. >>
I doubt that Obama is "using the IRS" like you suggest. It's become a monster that is beyond the president's control.
At this point, a "strong stand" on these issues is akin to revolution, as neither of the political parties have any interest in working on them. The problem remains greed and the cult of worship of the almighty dollar.
I do appreciate the media exposing things for what they are, and this is probably the best action. Hopefully the public can still get outraged every now and then.
<< <i>Not surprising. You can also be confined for 21 days if you are guilty of having a fever. >>
Maybe I am misinterpreting your post, but your hyperbole is grossly inaccurate. You can be confined for 21 days if you have a fever and have had DIRECT CONTACT with individuals infected with ebola in West Africa. Since a fever is a symptom, the policy seems rational. I won't comment - to avoid getting into politics - of the application of the policy to individuals who have had contact with patients but fail to present with symptoms (and are not contagious at the time).
<< <i>I know that forfeiture law is necessarily broad and treated differently in criminal cases, but in instances in which there is evidence or probable cause to suggest that a crime has been committed, it strikes me as odd that the law hasn't been invalidated as running afoul of federal due process protections. >>
For whatever reason when comes to the IRS, you guilty until proven innocent. That is, of course, the opposite of what the U.S. legal system is supposed to be about.
I've known people who were accused by the IRS, spent many thousands of dollars to defend themselves, and then were told by the IRS, "Our mistake," now many thousands of dollars poorer.
<< <i>It has quite a lot to do with coins and small business actually. When I was dealer I frequently made bank deposits that were under $10,000. I didn't want the money to lay around the house, and I had to keep it moving. Thank goodness I didn't wake up one day to find my bank account drained with the possibility of having passed bad checks as a result. You don't know that that can do to your reputation in the coin business. Years of a carefully cultivated reputation can go down the drain in an instant.
The issue IRS heavy handedness is very important to coin dealers and other small business. Rightly or wrongly the coin and bullion business has long been associated with tax evasion and money laundering in the eyes of some people. The honest coin dealer should not be subjected to threats and actions from the IRS when there is no probable cause and no sanction or protection from the judicial system. >>
I have a great deal of respect and admiration for anyone that can operate a small business. There is such a great deal of Byzantine paperwork and risk, and I really do root for these people to succeed. Especially with coin dealing, where there is such a danger in transporting goods, getting burned with counterfeits, stolen merchandise, or illegal imports. The extra burden of an overly complex and predatory tax system seems quite unfair.
<< <i>Not numismatic, but of interest to some in our community. From today's New York Times. >>
nice try but as usual the facts are there in your own words so do tell me again how this has to do with US coins as it's not numismatic?
1997-present
US silver commemorative half-dollars for sale, graded PCGS MS65 at the link below
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YY2EBLnWL4y9DztZA
<< <i>and this has to do with coins how again? >>
Nothing to do with coins, a whole lot to do with the proceeds from coin sales, something many forum members are involved with.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>It is only when one begins to exchange cash for electrons that the trouble begins....
Just don't do it using electrons!
<< <i>
<< <i>and this has to do with coins how again? >>
Nothing to do with coins, a whole lot to do with the proceeds from coin sales, something many forum members are involved with. >>
There are actually several ways to get a coin collection confiscated now days. If the government
can show you found a coin on government (or native American) owned land then they can take your
entire collection since it too might have come from metal detecting.
Now all of a sudden the US is signatory to all sorts of draconian laws written by foreign governments
and by the UN. If you own ancient Greek coins or Egyptian coins, for instance, you may be required to
prove lawful ownership all the time back to when they were issued. Of course no coin can be traced
back more than about 300 years so it effectively can make it illegal to own, buy, or sell, ancients. Egy-
ptian "ancients", I believe, are any dated before about 1938.
Individual rights and private property are outdated concepts.
I enjoyed your post on the IRS seizure of cash from "structuring" deposits under the $10,000 threshold. I am curious, how the IRS determines that "structuring" has occurred? Isn't it possible that a business always has less cash to deposit on a daily or weekly basis than 10K?
I work in the payroll business and have worked with the IRS a lot, but generally only with payroll related taxes.
Anyway, maybe someday if I have an IRS question(s) we can trade advice for coins?
Tyler
<< <i>
<< <i>He added that making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements, called structuring, is still a crime whether the money is from legal or illegal sources.
Nothing new here. Many, including a number of people involved in numismatics, are involved in structuring activities to avoid filing the 8300 forms. A number of such folks probably either under-report or do not report their income to the IRS. The 8300 form requirement form is to make it more difficult for those engaged in illegal activities, and also to make it more difficult for those who deal in cash to under-report / not report their income to the IRS.
I remember the large number of people on this forum who were 'unhappy' about the prospect of E-bay filing 1099-K forms to E-Bay sellers whose activity exceeded a certain amount. Coincidence?
The problem is that there aren't enough competent IRS employees, and / or supervisors of such employees, to distinguish between companies involved in normal business practices, and structuring transactions. And people being people, they make mistakes. Do you think the TPGs get it right all of the time? I have some ocean-front property in Oklahoma I can sell you.
We all know that many are drawn to businesses that are cash based because they don't want to report their earnings to the government. Depending on the under-reported amount, this is either a misdemeanor, or a felony. That means that income taxes are higher for the rest of us.
Go ahead and flame me about this. I don't care. >>
Don't know if I saw it here or heard it from someone at my bank, but most 8300s never get any attention, but SARs Suspicious Activity Reports are investigated. >>
In many circumstances, filing 8300 forms are a good way not to have an SAR generated in the first place.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I believe the IRS considers "Structuring" when deposits of just under $10000 are made on a frequent recurring basis. If it is not over a period of time they would probably not consider "Structuring". I believe some banks even warn their customers that they are making deposits that IRS may consider the "Structuring" issue. In my client's case it was almost a daily occurance for a very long time...only because he had lots of migrants sending money orders back home to family and they paid for the money orders with cash.
I believe that this information is very important to coin dealers, especially those that handle numerous bullion sales. I have several coin dealers for clients and this issue along with the issue of determining inventory are two very important areas of concern. You would be amazed at the number of dealers that only take a guess at what there inventory is and this is not acceptable by th IRS.
I would be happy to try and answer any questions that concern you. I think this forum is very informative to all member collectors.
These are ungraded beauties. (except for the ones that the mint screwed up which is about 78% for the every day collector , and 92% for the cherry pickers, respectively. This leaves four decent coins out of 2 rolls purchased at 40% over face value ). And remember, you can order direct from
USMINT.GOV
This post was brought to you by the promoter of coins and collecting for the sake of having some fun.
If you have questions you may use the private message function and we can discuss WAR OF THE WORLDS by H.G. Wells as dramatized and presented by Orson Welles in 1938.
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<< <i>
Now all of a sudden the US is signatory to all sorts of draconian laws written by foreign governments
and by the UN. If you own ancient Greek coins or Egyptian coins, for instance, you may be required to
prove lawful ownership all the time back to when they were issued. Of course no coin can be traced
back more than about 300 years so it effectively can make it illegal to own, buy, or sell, ancients. Egy-
ptian "ancients", I believe, are any dated before about 1938. >>
That's not at all accurate. Yes, the rules and import restrictions have gotten more complicated but a pedigree back to 1970 is basically guaranteed to be okay, and for most coins, a pedigree stating that a coin was outside of Greece/Italy in 2011 is fine. Even then, the import restrictions only affect a small range of coins overall and some of the rationale isn't that unreasonable.
<< <i>Gotta say, when I was coin roll hunting on a regular, heavy basis, I was moving the same $5k through my account a couple dozen times a month. In one month, I think I racked up $120k in cash deposits. I didn't hear nothing from anybody about that. >>
Didn't you also have $120,000 in withdrawals? Looks like they just canceled each other out.
Tyler
<< <i>
I believe the IRS considers "Structuring" when deposits of just under $10000 are made on a frequent recurring basis. If it is not over a period of time they would probably not consider "Structuring". >>
As I understand it, the above is correct.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
<< <i>In credible, did you make note that since this amazing violation of our rights was performed and now publicized the IRS will supposedly not do it anymore......wow! >>
Do you really think you have rights in this country anymore?? >>
losing it left and right. we are right in connecticut
<< <i>I doubt that Obama is "using the IRS" like you suggest. It's become a monster that is beyond the president's control. >>
And if the Tsar only knew how much we are suffering, he would do something about it ...
That comment strains credibility.
ICTA provides resources for people in our industry so people can learn how to obey the laws and not act suspicious. A majority of coin dealers who are getting busted are those who are actively trying to avoid the reporting requirement. They tend not to know they are busted until it is too late. The sad thing is if they were to deposit enough for an 8300 to be filed, nobody would have batted an eye. To the person who says they are only ensured up to 10k in cash I call BS. You can deposit 10k + one cent. That will put you over the threshold and you only have to risk 1 cent of uninsured money. If there is a lower limit like $8000 and you deposit less than that each time and you can show the agent the policy, there is a good chance they will back off.
I spoke to ICTA’s AML consultant about this article and he put it best, the fastest way to get onto the governments radar is by NOT having any 8300 forms filed.
<< <i>Ignorance is bliss and I'm going to leave this thread before I make some enemies. >>
...or before it's poofed or locked...
"OVER MY DEAD BODY", when someone said, "You're not going to be able to keep those coins.". But he proved them wrong, didn't he ? The government is still fighting about those coins, and it's over his dead body. Buncha bullies, anyway.
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<< <i>Imagine some posters saying the Constitution doesn't matter ... the IRs doesn't affect them .. well what ya going to do when IRS takes you money? >>
Most of us recognize a rhetorical question. Though, the only answer is "PAY".
The rules are simple enough. (okay that doesn't make the code simple). That's why it's called a 'CODE'.
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How far back do you need to document any cash that you might have with you? How long a pedigree? Should the bank be certifying the serial number of every piece of currency that they hand out to you in some sort of receipt? Seems like that's the best solution for bank customers who deal in any significant amount of cash.
I knew it would happen.
Video
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
<< <i>
<< <i>Imagine some posters saying the Constitution doesn't matter ... the IRs doesn't affect them .. well what ya going to do when IRS takes you money? >>
Most of us recognize a rhetorical question. Though, the only answer is "PAY".
The rules are simple enough. (okay that doesn't make the code simple). That's why it's called a 'CODE'. >>
The law ,code don't matter to some IRS fools .. rules ?? who follows rules after IRS takes your bank account .. beware to doubters in years to come
Even the EPA says, they can level fines and just take the money out of your account before any legal findings that you are guilty
<< <i>Man this board has gone political lately. Some of you are nuts >>
LOL careful what you dimiss
IRS = Idiots ruining society.
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Box of 20
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire